SMEagle819

This is what's on the December 2007 revision, 2008 printing of the BSA Local Tour Permit (trips under 500 miles): 18. If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them. I'm not going to fall into the trap of how to interpret "closely follow...." I will say this: I have started giving out maps and directions to the drivers for trips we take. Also, on a longer drive, I list a "break" point on the way to, and on the way home. I do agree with OGE that on the return that some go directly home instead of returning to the CO and only having a few people to put away the gear from the trip, it's very frustrating and leads to less teamwork. We are working with the QM to be more involved (peer pressure) to have people come back and put away the gear. To be honest, I cannot recall being trained on the "Risk Zone" when I took SM Fundamentals. Our group may have had it, I just do not recall it. Is there anywhere out there on the web that might have a synopsis of this so I can refresh, and possibly make copies to give out to our other adult leaders/drivers?

I would like to see more discussion time devoted to some of the issues that other posters put down, such as camping trips, cooking, program ideas, advancement, etc. What our RT lacks is the two sided discussions. Usually, it is either the DC or a UC giving a presentation about a merit badge, or inviting someone in to talk about opportunities in school. This is all well and good, but the two way discussion part seems to be missing. Having a separate room for an actual "roundtable" would be a benefit to the new leaders, and some of us old guys as well.

SM/ASM indoor and outdoor training 1999(This message has been edited by SMEagle819)

BW wrote: "The easiest way to measue this activity in Boy Scouting is by the use of the Troop Leadership training program. Each scout recieves a job description card during the training,. By the end of the training he has had a personal conference with either the adult or an older scout who will be his coach and mentor. Together they determine 3 goals that the scout will accomplish while in office, and they document them on the back of the job description card. The Scout now has a written plan for completing this requirement and specific measuarable goals to meet to show that he has served actively in the unit. There is a reason that the BSa provides these tools in the program for you to use. The more you follow the program, the easier the program is to lead." Where can one obtain these cards? I really like the idea, and would like to incorporate them into the troop PLC.

Yes, I had a corner or two taken off mine back in the '80s, both by the SPL. I don't remember what the infraction was, but it made the impression on me. I use it today in the troop. I do like the idea of annual retraining on both the Totin Chip and Fireman Chit. May have to float that one out there to the PLC...

Bob White wrote: You wrote " well it is a lot like what the BSA resources tell us about the UC/unit relationship - looks great on paper, often does not happen that way in reality." Just what paper would that have been??? I believe that paper is "The Annual Charter Agreement" form. Link provided: http://cubmaster.org/charterpartneragreement.pdf You can read it at your leisure. Briefly, it states what the CO agrees to do and what the Council agrees to do. I am speaking from experience here: It is then signed at the bottom by a representative of the COR (usually, although the signature line says "For the Chartered Organization") and a representative of the council (usually the DE). According the the second page of the form, a meeting should be called for between the CO and the Council to "the concept of working together" (direct quote). This usually comes with the recharter package. So, at least once a year, a council rep and a CO rep should meet face to face according to this offiicial BSA form.

Thanks, OGE, I needed that splash of "Scout Humor"...

From the "Random House Unabridged Dictionary:" adviser-noun 1. one who gives advice. 2. Education. a teacher responsible for advising students on academic matters. 3. a fortuneteller. Also, advisor. [Origin: 1605-15; advise + -er]

Yes, the one about knives has been around for as long as I can remember. To take it a step further, I think I remember someone one time saying no knives with a blade over 6 inches. Here is what the G2SS says about knives: "A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. Rememberknives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft. References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Cub Scout Book, and Wolf Cub Scout Book" Look, the G2SS even provides references. It does mention "avoid large sheath knives," but it does not say cannot have or use them (properly, of course). Here's another myth I have heard recently: Scouts cannot have or use double headed axes. I could not find any resources with "double headed ax" in it (although I am at work, will look when I get home) that sat scouts cannot use one. We use this as part of our teaching of the Tote-n-Chip, and explain how it is used, why it was designed that way, and the added safety measures you need to follow when using this tool. I remember having one at a camporee, and was immediately reprimanded by a staffer for having it. It was in the roped off woodyard, with one side buried correctly in a log with the outward facing head properly covered with a sheath. In order to appease the staff member, I put it away in our trailer.

Well said, BrotherhoodWWW.

I'm glad to hear that Cooking MB is being considered to added to the list of Eagle required merit badges. It is a MB that teaches a life skill. I would like to see Pioneering added to the list. This MB teaches scouts about construction, team work, and engineering.

Well, Bob, I am citing other examples in the BSA literature that show the Scout badge as a rank. I am getting the feeling that anyone else who does their research, and disputes what you have said is unequivocally wrong. I take it that you have not gone and looked at the places I cited as showing the Scout badge as a rank. I did go and look at the places you cited showing it not to be a rank. In doing so, I have found a few more references for you: On the Individual Scout Record form (#34518B), Boy Scout is listed under ranks. However, it says Boy Scout, whereas, starting with Tenderfoot through Life, it says Tenderfoot Rank, et al. On the First Class, First Year Tracking Sheet form (#34118B), Boy Scout is not listed as a rank; matter of fact, its not listed on this form at all. In the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book (#33088), page 59, on the chart Boy Scouting Requirements, there is a header line that includes Rank. Boy Scout is listed first here, but it also has in parenthesis, joining. In the Insignia Guide book (#33066), page 25, the Boy Scout badge is listed with the other ranks. It is also listed as going on the uniform on the left pocket, the same as the other ranks. However, beginning with Tenderfoot through Eagle, the book says Tenderfoot Rank, et al. Also, on the full color insert in the middle of the book (sorry, no page numbers), the left pocket is noted as Badge of Rank. In the Official Boy Scout Catalog, item number 17586 is the My Trail to Eagle plaque. From the online description: Chart your progress as you move along the trail to Eagle Scout. Replace the paper badges with the actual badges once you've earned them. Hangs or stands. Measures 10 3/4" x 8 5/8". Includes an engraveable plate measuring approximately 4-1/8" x 1/2". On this plaque is a space for the Scout badge. One last reference: my local council shop has the slot labeled where they keep the Scout badge as Scout Rank. I know this one isnt official, but it is at the council office. I really did not want this to be an argument, as I think we are both correct. There are numerous locations in official BSA literature that makes either of our "interpretations" valid. Maybe we should get together and point out the inconsistencies in the Scout badge/rank/patch to National, and let them know there is some confusion out in the trenches. Or, like some others have said, present the view to National to get rid of the Scout badge/rank/patch altogether.

Many of the BSA policies and regulations are open to interpretation, as have been said many times before, by many different people on this message board. The design of the patch, the way the "requirements" are listed for the badge, where it is worn on the uniform, the way the patch is listed in the BSA Official catalog (http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=INSIGNIA&C4=&LV=3), and the fact that the internet advancement program would have been written to a protocol provided by the BSA. After doing this research, and going back and rereading (yes, I said reading) the "requirements" for this badge, I can see where the Scout badge would not quantify as a rank: there is no BOR for Scout, but there is a SM conference. I believe we can argue this point forever, but neither one of us will change their opinion or interpretation of this badge. Considering that I know how to read, and have read the handbook many times, the Scout badge still qualifies as a rank in my book.

I took the dreaded test, and scored an 87%. One of the ones I missed was "What is the first rank in Scouts?" Of course, I answered Scout. According to the proctor of the test, Tenderfoot is the correct answer. I went back to my "Boy Scout Requirements 2008" handbook, and Scout is listed under Boy Scout Joining Requirements. OK, I think to myself, I was wrong. However, I just finished updating the troop's advancement records using the new online advancement tool on the BSA website, and I added a couple of new scouts data in the Scout "patch" field. When I printed my report to turn into council, it showed 8 scouts earned 10 ranks. Hmmm, I think to myself, we only had 8 scouts advance one "rank" each over the past few months. I went to my report, and counted the ranks earned, and the Scout badge is counted as a rank! So, this throws a whole wrench in the Scout badge and what it represents; yes, it is something that a new scout gets when he joins the troop; however, he must show some skills in order to be able to "earn" the patch. Also, the patch is the same size, shape, and color as the rest of the "rank" badges. Therefore, I respectfully submit that the Scout patch/badge/rank is actually a rank.

I agree with most of what has been said here. I was one of those young adults who stuck around after turning 18. I stayed with my troop until I went to college, where I joined another troop as an ASM. That lasted my 4 years at college. When I returned home after college, I rejoined my old troop as ASM, and became Scoutmaster when I was 26. I'm still the scoutmaster after 12 years, and have enjoyed every minute of it. I'm married with 2 children (no boys). You shouldn't have any problem joining as a young adult, as volunteers are always welcome, especially those with experience...

Our troop just went to Gettysburg in May, and we also stayed at McMillan Woods. McMillan Woods is a nice camping area. There are port-a-johns available, a dumpster to dump your trash, and also a water source. Please be advised there is limited parking for vehicles. Also, they now have a "camp host" staying on site now due to some prior incidents. Since any youth group can use this camp ground, I would like to think it wasn't scouts that were the bad apples... Road access to McMillan Woods is via the park road (Confederate Avenue), which runs one way (roughly South). This is slightly inconvenient if you want to drive over to the town. The new Visitors Center is open. It is located off Taneytown Road just down from the old VC. Please note the old VC and the Cyclorama are permanently closed. The Cyclorama has been restored and should be open for viewing at the new VC in September. They electric map was not moved to the new VC, which I think is sad. The layout of the new VC is great, and there are more displays, but I could tell there were some items that were not on display that were in the old one. In my mind, bikes would be difficult to use for the trail programs. Some of the trails do take you across fields and down unpaved trails that might not be bike acessable. Also, since the VC has moved, they have updated the guidebook for the scout trails. According to sources at the VC, the old guidebook is no longer available. The new guidebook was supposed to be in the gift shop when they opened in April, but when we were there, they had not yet arrived. Luckily, we found some at the Eisenhower Site when we visited there (we did this on a rainy day before we started the hikes). In my opinion, hiking the trails gives a better perspective of the battlefield, and you can answer the questions as you go. If you still have some time before you go, you may want to contact the battlefield to see if the books are in. If not, you can still order the guidebooks via the York-Adams Council's website.

Thanks for the correct listing for the backing colors, GW. I have been trying to find out what the proper colrs are for a while now. We just started this with the boys. They like having something else to put on the uniform.

Many moons ago, when I earned my Eagle, a telephone call by the Eagle candidate to a district advancement person usually covered the part of having the project approved by the district. About 5 years ago, the district began a process of approving Eagle projects at the District Roundtable. A "breakout" session would convene after the announcements, and the prospective Eagles would go in and face members of the advancement committee to get the necessary approval. We were notified that this change would be taking place that telephone calls to a district advancement committee member would no longer be allowed. Understandable change, good communication, no issues with the change. Last night, I had 2 boys go before the advancement committee, and were denied. They told me they were "grilled unmercifully" by the people there. They wanted to see exact dates and times the project would begin/end, how many people needed, tools needed, donations for money/supplies already in hand, and the info typed. Just a few months ago, my last Eagle Scout presented a project that had very basic information (the 5 W's, who, what, when, where, why). This was all that was needed to get the project approved, and this is what I've always told the scout presenting his project that he would need. The donations, tool list, number of people, and dates would come after the project was approved because you needed to know if the project was a go. Also, a sign up sheet is usually passed around at meetings to get prospective helpers. Sometimes, everyone would sign up, other times only a few. Getting tan exact number is almost impossible before the project begins. One of the father's of one of the candidates was in the room when his son presented his project, and told me that the committee was consistent, that no scout left with their project approved ( I believe there were 6 total there trying to get approval), that all of them were questioned the same way. After roundtable, I approached one of the committeemen, one that I have known for quite sometime, and have a pretty good rapport with. I wanted to know about the change, and why we were not notified of the change in getting a project approved. He told me that the advancement committee is moving to this type of approval, that nothing has been distributed to the units yet, and to have the boys come back with all of the info that was asked for. I told him I did not agree, because a project approval should rest on the basic facts of the project (again the 5 W's), not every single detail, typed because that is the finished product. I also said that my scouts would have had the necessary info if we had known of the amount of detail now asked for in the approval process. Needless to say, I had 2 embarrassed young people, and 1 embarrassed scout leader who had no knowledge of the change in the detail and format now required by the advancement committee. After my long winded rant, my question is this: how do some of the other district/councils out there approve Eagle projects? Before I get any answers about reading the Eagle scout Project Workbook, I read it last night, and again this morning, and found no wording in it asking for donations prior to start, exact dates and times (only a timeline, such as "it will take me 3 Saturdays of working 8 hours each Saturday to complete my project), and having the project plan typed. I have always instructed my scouts to use the workbook for what it is, a book to keep the ideas of the project, tool list, hours worked by each person, and any other item they wished to jot down while carrying out the project. Then, they could use this as the outline/notes for writing the finished project up for presentation at the EBOR. YIS, SMEagle819

We buy the new Eagle a NESA neckerchief. Our quondam scoutmaster makes each Eagle a neckerchief slide out of walnut in the shape of a square knot to replace the one earned by the scout when he became tenderfoot (same slide, but made of pine). We do have an Eagle plaque, now on its second board, that the Eagle's name goes on.

I agree with what thebigguy put in his post. I have seen quite a few scouts earn Eagle at 13-14, and really just quit scouting. On the other hand, I have had a couple that stayed active, earned a few palms, and helped the younger scouts along. I do have something I can share from an Eagle ceremony we had this past Saturday. We had a Distinguished Eagle Scout attend, and he was asked to come forward and say a few words. He happened to be a friend of the family of the newly minted Eagle. He challenged the new Eagle to stay involved (new Eagle is 16), earn some palms, help the younger scouts, help the scoutmasters, and if not, "I'll come back and get you! I'm 82 years old, and I don't have much time left, but I'll still come back...." I wish I had a tape recorder going for his entire speech. It was very inspiring to me, and even some of the other boys have commented about it. As you can tell by my forum handle, I, too, am an Eagle. I earned it a couple of weeks before my 18th birthday. Does this make me "less" of an Eagle than someone who earned it at 13, 14, 15? I don't think so. I do believe that the second part of the Scout Law is "Loyal;" I can actually remember giving that as an answer during my Eagle BOR about being so close to aging out. I actually enjoyed being part of the troop, the campouts, the leadership opportunities, etc. I know that there are many Eagles involved in Scouting as adults; I am one of them. I wonder how many of the "involved" Eagles are those that earned it early, or those that earned it later? I do not agree with the "Eagle factory" concept, and the troop I am scoutmaster for does not either. We do have some "homegrown" merit badge couselors, but we also use the council resources (counselors) for many of the Eagle required badges. I try to advise the scouts to take advantage of summer camp, and earn as many badges there as they can as many of those style badges are better to earn there with the resources that are present.

I, too, am quite disturbed by entire threads being deleted. Like what BrotherhoodWWW wrote, if I post to a thread, and the entire thread is deleted, what is the ultimate purpose of making a reply? The "Rogue Unit" thread was one that I responded to, and "self-moderated" my reply so as not to offend or give any "Top Secret" details away about myself or CO or anyone else. I think this thread had a good opportunity to get some feedback from more members, but it was cut off before that could happen. I didn't see what the offense was, because it was deleted about 2 posts after my response. I think a little more moderator self-moderation is due....(This message has been edited by SMEagle819)

You can consider my unit a rogue unit (many in our district do, I know that for a fact). We have been called anything from a "high adventure unit" (goes camping once a month, year round, follows the old scout ideals of "Keep the Outing in Scouting"), to "you guys don't support council" (sold popcorn for the past 6 years, did not do this past year; however, we attend summer camp at the council's camp every year). We have begun attending district and council camporees again; the info is presented to the PLC, who then decides if they would like to attend. Our district only has one camporee per year now. I remember when I was a scout, that there was a spring and fall camporee. Also, there used to be a Scout-a-Rama every spring put on by the council, but that has also fallen by the wayside. I have offered my services to the camping committee, but have received no response. Regarding UCs, we had them in the past that were assigned by the district. We were lucky to ever see these people, let alone know who was our UC. When they would stop by, they would tell us we should be doing this, and we should be doing that. We stopped seeing these people after my predecessor lost his cool at one who was trying to tell him how to be a Sm (after this gentleman had served over 25 years as SM). We now have the old CM from our same numbered pack (will stop using the term feeder pack as suggested) as our UC. We know who this person is, and how to contact them. Much better relations now with UC than in the past. I have to agree with what OGE said about the product the council/district is providing their customers. In my opinion, our district really is floundering in my area. We did just get split into 2 new districts,as the original one was extremenly large by national standards (so we were told). At one time there were 2 viable troops in my little town. Now, due to pressures of the council/district maintaining its "Honor Council/District," there are now 4 troops in the same village fighting for boys to join their troop. I have asked everyone from the UC (past and present) on up the chain to the SE, and have never been given a reason why there is an over saturation of Boy Scout troops in my area. Many of the parents are also confused/frustrated by the "politics" in our council/district. I have to keep reminding the parents that we are here for the boys, not for council/district and whatever problems they are having. Sorry for the rant. This thread kind of hit home...

We have a checklist that is given to the Scout before he comes to the SM conference. It lists items such as "All requirements signed and dated," "Leadership role" (for Star & Life), etc. This checklist is then forwarded to the BOR. There is a place for the SM to put notes for the BOR on the sheet as well. One other item we like to have for Star and LIfe is a brief write up of the service hours they performed for the rank (who, what, when, where, why). Usually this is only a page. We see it as getting the Scout ready for Eagle. We have a separate checklist for Eagle, which lists many more specific items for that rank.

I do agree that trained leaders are a good thing. The biggest problem facing my troop in getting leaders trained is knowing when and where the training will take place. Right now, I have 2 leaders chomping at the bit to be trained. However, the district/council is not posting when training will be. I even asked the DC about it, and he suggested to look at other districts nearby. Same story: no schedule! Most of the time when the training is scheduled, we get 2 maybe 3 weeks notice. I would suggest to any DCs out there to get a training schedule out so the leaders that wish to go can make plans, and the troops they serve can be flexible with their planning as well.

I have seen this used by some parents in my unit. It has worked for their scout, but I do agree that it should not be used as a motivator to earn Eagle. The last parents in my troop that did this really did not need to because the scout was already motivated to earn Eagle. It was just a carrot dangled out there so he could get it by 16. When I was in scouts as a youth, I never heard my buddies saying they had this "motivation."