skeptic

"Scouting USA"; now there is a throwback! Who else remembers that from the past? Seems to me that it was coined at a time when there was a possible merge with Girl Scouts sometime around 1980, give or take a few years.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

"Seriously, do any of you have BS Troops asking their SM's why the Jr. High girls can't come around?" It has happened on a number of occasions. Recently by an 11 year old (almost 12).

Vicki; On the other side of the coin are the Koshare Inidans in La Junta, Colorado. If you are not familiar with them, here is a link to them. http://www.kosharehistory.org/index.html The group has been in existence since the 40's, and has worked so hard to develop authentic programs that a number of tribes have honored them directly, and some even given permission for them to do dances that normally would not be acceptable outside the actual tribal customs. Take a look.

Just came into possession of this patch, which appears to be an F1(?), from what I can find on the net. Any info on it someone can give me? Know it is from the early 60's, as the other patches are from that period, as are the cards. Thanks.

Guess we need to revisit "Scouting with the Neckerchief". Now that they have the full sized ones again, they can be used for much of what was done once, such as slings and roller bandages. A few years back, National put out a reprint of the booklet, along with a full sized squared neckerchief. Have one in the drawer with my other "stuff". Of course I already had the booklet and older neckerchiefs. Great booklet though.

Not sure your mile swim time would be longer than my most recent ones. (:-}> In 2009 I did my 25th "official" summer camp mile; it was around 1 hour and 20 minutes or so; but I finished it, and never stopped, like some of the younger swimmers did (fudging it from my perspective, by hanging on the edge, or putting feet down briefly in the shallow end), and I was 65 then. Did not do it last year. Best time was under 40 minutes I think in Shaver Lake in 65 degree water. Did a three in the Pacific, two at Emerald Bay, and one at Cherry Valley. Half have been in pools or restricted swimming docks. Will see if I feel like trying it at camp this summer.

We have attended a dozen or more camps over the years I have been an adult leader, and few kids ever completely flunk the test. Some have to go back on occasion. I had one camp where I was seriously concerned about the test's worth, as I watched some kids that simply floundered the whole way, stopping at the shallow end of the pool, yet still getting passed. Yes, I did speak to the staff about the concerns, and hopefully they took my concerns seriously. But, the biggest problem we have with tests is the tendency of the kids to think it is a race. For good swimmers, that is not an issue; but for the large majority, especially younger boys, it can be difficult. Part of that is that most of our camps are in the mountains above 4,000 feet, while we live on the coast. Also, many of the testing areas are cold, especially those in lakes where temps can be in the 60's. Between the thinner air and the muscle taxing cold, they tire really fast. I try to coach my boys to remember to go slowly, especially when they start out. Of course, most boys "think" they are good swimmers, but unless they swim with their face in the water and know how to breath, they have a ways to go. The good thing is that they can retest as often as necessary; and for some, that is a goal. But, even non-swimmers can play in restricted areas. I would like to see a separate session scheduled for non-swimmers, and another for beginners, so they might actually leave camp with new confidence and greater skill. But most camps have trouble simply staffing the actual classes in swimming and life saving.

From Beavah's last post. This rang a bell with me. This statement could easily be applied to much of our own country. And it is heading even closer to this in many segments. "Low, or poor education" is becoming a huge problem through out the country. And much of it is caused by poverty and cliquish attitudes, especially in the urban centers. And while we might not actually call it tribalism, the trend toward "little this, or little that" neighborhoods, and the huge upsurge in gangs, equate to it more than we might want to admit. Add to that the fears generated by media about certain religious groups, and the growth of militias and far "either side" groups and rhetoric, and we have major challenges right here "in the U.S. of A.". I have thought for a while now that there is a certain amount of irony that there is so much paranoia about Al Queda, or similar terrorist groups; and that we need to knock them out "before" they get a foothold here. Yet, we mostly just give lip service to the already rampant terrorism we have here in the form of very violent and cruel gangs throughout the nation, especially in the largest urban area. What is really scary is that they are becoming more common in smaller areas as well. Yet, once more, these areas of police protection are often the first to get the axe in budget fights. If we spent even a quarter of the funds and effort thrown at the out of country fears, we might actually see some results. But I am old and out of touch. I most likely just do not see the real picture, or understand.

While the coed experience with girls being flirts and boys acting foolish might be an issue sometimes, especially initially in a new program, it would likely only last briefly. Once the group bonds and spends enough time together, most of this would evaporate, and they would likely be mostly like siblings and cousins. Granted, there would be a few exceptions; but for the most part, familiarity would ease the problem. You see that happen in other groups of that age that are coed. Often the girls become more focused, probably trying to prove they can do whatever the boys can; and the boys are a bit less willing to completely look like idiots in front of the girls, or to be seen as less capable. And, of course, there is still the option of all girl or all boy troops, even though they "could be" coed. Or, you have all one gender or the other in patrols, with dual upper leadership. Lots of options. At some point it is likely to happen.

Why does almost anything posted or presented have so many posters that find the need to be negative about all or part of the subject? Use what you find helpful, and ignore the rest. But lets see if we can start to look for the positives, and quit bashing everything. It is getting simply tiresome. And it is certainly not showing Scout Spirit. JMHO

Sorry about not linking; just forgot that "I" have NESA on my favorites. Thanks for posting it. Desert; I find a number of them a bit clumsy at least, and yes, even odd to some extent. But, they are jumping off points. Have seen a number of ceremonies that have been pasted from two or three of these. Whatever the scout and his family feels is good for them.

Oh my; NESA just did something useful. :-}> NESA Presents the Eagle Scout Award Suggested Ceremonies Booklet Out of print for more than 20 years, NESA is happy to bring this useful information to you. Heres what is in the updated piece: Eagle Scout Awards Suggested Ceremonies BookletThe Eagle Scout Pledge Ceremony 1: The Challenge Ceremony 2: History of the Eagle and Man Ceremony 3: Lighting the Eagle Trail Ceremony 4: The Light of the Eagle Eagle Scout Light Box Ceremony 5: The Light of the Eagle (alternate wording) Ceremony 6: An Eagle Scout The Eagle Scout (poem) Ceremony 7: Order of the Arrow Ceremony 8: The Voice of the Eagle Ceremony 9: The Picture Ceremony Ceremony 10: Parents Ceremony Eagle Scout Recognition Dinner Ceremony 11: Citizenship Ceremony Sample Mayoral Citation for Citizenship Ceremony Ceremony 12: Alternate Opening Ceremony Ceremony 13: Closing Ceremony A huge Eagle Scout thanks goes out to Aloha Council (Honolulu, Hawaii) Scouter Kevin Doyle, who used OCR software to scan the old booklet, then he edited it and designed what you see here.

You likely can use any comfortable material, as long as you model the design after the vintage style, and have the correct color. For his size, you may have no other choice; but they do show up on eBay in larger sizes. But, they also tend to get pricey if they are complete and have anything collectible on them. But, someone on this board may point you in the right direction. You might consider reposting in the collecting thread, or the uniform thread, just to get more viewings.

Yep; have had parents tell me they cannot find any of the info. Tell them to look in the handbook, on the inside covers, and they act as if that is not feasible. Maybe they are visually regressed, or cannot read. Makes you want to scream sometimes.

Brent: Okay, I tried to find specifics relating to the wear of uniforms in the National Rules and Bylaws. But all I could locate were the various protection clauses, which apply to other threads on these boards, including revocations, selling unauthorized items, or selling things obtained without proper authority. They do refer to "as referenced" in various publications. So, you may be right in your statement regarding all or none. I suspect we might find contradictions between some manuals and other paper publications, depending on whom actually published them, and how old they are. Certainly we should strive to get boys to be properly uniformed. But we should not make it an issue that will turn them away, either by embarrassment or lack of ability to pay. JMHO

Directly from the actual Rules and Regulations; found while looking for any specifics regarding actually wearing the uniform. Could not find "any", other than referencing other publications. But, this certainly seems to deal directly with the question in this thread. "Protection and Use of Badges and Insignia; National Rules and Regulations. Clause 9: All badges and insignia shall remain the property of the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or its duly authorized representative."

So, while I realize many would say it is not relevant, uniforms "are not required", period; they are only recommended and encouraged. No where in the actual governing documents is having a uniform specified. Now, if one does have one, certainly every effort should be made to have it worn correctly, and to have whatever belongs on it placed properly. But, again, there is no restriction on partial uniforms either, as that is viewed in many cases as better than none at all. Early on, scouts were encouraged to "earn" their uniform by various means; or to simply earn a part, such as the shirt, traditional smokey style hat, or just the neckerchief. Many units arranged to have neckerchiefs at least for their troops. Old photos very often show scouts with only a neckerchief, and possibly a hat. Our uniform bank does hardly ever has enough pieces to make complete uniforms possible, but can start a boy often. Sizing is often the problem, as the only ones coming in are smalls, and boys already there have grown, and may be the donors looking to find one to fit. Granted, we are the oldest and poorest troop in town, serving the lowest income area, and always struggling to stay viable. The cool thing is that we have a number of very vintage, and one antique uniform we use for display. Last night we had two boys in complete uniforms, one from the closet and that dates to the 50's, even with the red piping,and one current. They looked good. One had shirt up, including a neatly worn necker; three had just shirts (one always has to be reminded to tuck it in). I am almost always in complete uniform unless something unusual is going on, though I wear an older early 80's shirt to meeting normally, saving the more current last issue shirt for formal use. Like most of us around for a while, I have a number of shirts, each with different things on them. This "is" an improvement over last year; so I guess we are making progress. Three new boys, still have yet to get uniforms, but the grandfather of one, and mother of another said they hoped to go and get them soon. Whatever they wear, they are welcome. Whatever they wear, they seem to usually have fun. That is the important part. JMHO

Kinney was featured over the weekend in the PARADE MAGAZINE. He is shown as a 13 year old boy scout in a photo, and he is currently a cub leader for his son. Does anyone know if he became an Eagle; have not been able to find the info on line yet. May just be looking the wrong place. Just curious, as we all understand, or I hope we do, that Eagle is great, but not a complete reflection of scouting and its effect on youth.

See link below to read about Jack Pape, Life Scout who just won the 2011 American Spirit Award. What a great positive piece. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2011/03/22/boy-scout-jack-pape-wins-2011-american-spirit-award/

While I have always, since the onset of the pin, encouraged my Eagles to give the pin to someone other than myself, explaining that surely there were adults who pushed, prodded, and inspired them to make the final effort, I do have one. And, it is worn proudly on my left pocket flap. Not in line with the guide (soon being left behind); so be it.

Maybe it is simply my age, but to me, having the "basics" down pat first if absolutely the most important issue. It is obvious to me that the kids who for whatever reason simply "learn" their times tables, for example, have far fewer problems later. It is obvious that kids who learn to read, and "sound out" words early, are generally more successful going forward in every subject. Fragmentation, and not enough focus in the first two or three grades appears to have very negative effects as the children progress (or it keeps them from actually progressing at grade level). Some students will simply get it more quickly, but moving forward before they do is asking for failure, discouragement, and problems later. JMHO

We have used the traditional travois as chariots at COR off and on for years, as well as at troop level. While they have no wheels, they are easily dragged, often modified with a fourth cross piece as a pusher. One scout rides on the device, and they have to redo the lashings at the spot,if it comes apart. You might be able to modify it to actually have wheels, but could become an issue of time and so on. Might allow patrols to bring their own wheeled spar, but still have to put it all together. Or, you might furnish the wheeled spar at the game site. Experience suggests that you might want to have helmets for the rider, and maybe even elbow and knee pads if desired. The kids love it, but the spills can be a bit scary on occasion.

As a credentialed teacher who has now subbed for over 12 years in all grade levels and 3 districts, I think I have a pretty good perspective on California schools. It is definitely important that the parents be involved, and support the teacher and school. The schools that have open style set ups tend to have fewer problems overall, though there are still way too many. And, when I worked one of the charter schools, they seemed to have students that were more interested. Both types are far more family/parent related. Every school is short staffed, short of supplies, and now trending towards over crowding in classes, even at the lower levels. Until a few years ago, it was obvious how important the class size restrictions from k-3 were. It was far easier to help kids and actually observe those struggling and give them additional encouragement. And they tended to be more attentive as well, partly due to the extra attention, but also because they soon learned it was not that easy to pass under the radar. The attention level seemed to continue into the first half of 4th, but then the kids began to realize they could get by with more, due to larger classes. And by 5th, the patterns were beginning to show as to whom would slide if they could. This is not helped, in my opinion, by requiring mainlining too many kids with various types of special issues. They tend to be far more disruptive and take a lot of the teacher's time, even when they have aides. This is not fair to the other kids, or at least that is my feeling. Another thing that really gets to me are the numerous disruptions from outside the classroom by intercoms, phone calls, student messengers, or kids with assignments to collect recycling or see if they can help the smaller kids (they apparently get extra credit where this happens; but they just sort of show up). They also seem to have a lot of assemblies that give out ribbons and so on. Most of the kids are bored to death, and you have to watch them carefully, as they will easily find ways to cause mischief. Most of these awards could be given on the class level and take far less time from the actual teaching day. At least in the districts in which I have worked, there is still some attempt towards exposing classes to music and art. But, it is no longer a regular part of the curriculum in most schools, and is dependent on parent volunteers or hourly temps. They also get P.E., but not every day. Many schools no longer have librarians except one or two days a week; so the teachers have that job added onto the others they already have. And psychologists and nurses are not in every school either, but spread throughout the districts. So far, high schools seem to have retained at least one counselor each, but the multiple counselors that were normal are no longer the case, with obvious ramifications. Classrooms are no longer being cleaned daily, nor grounds tended regularly in most schools. This is also a factor in the way kids and parents see the school, even though they may not admit it. I can see a difference in classes where the regular teacher is strict in regard to cleaning up the room and keeping it neat; the kids tend to be less problematic and cooperative. HMMMMMMM! The best teachers always find a way to succeed, and most are generally trying and somewhat successful. There are a few that concern me. They are either burned out, or really should not be in the job. But there are not nearly as many of these as you would think from some of the comments we see or hear. There are, in my opinion, too many superintendents with high salaries. Too many principals still seldom get involved with the students directly, especially in larger schools. This is partly due to the simply overly burdensome demands put on them. But, it would be great if they actually taught once or twice a month in various classes. You know what they say about being in the trenches. Discipline is a real problem, and educators are paranoid about law suits. This leads to many ignoring whatever they can, rather than take the chance of being threatened by parents. And, as pointed out, expectations of actually doing the work is not there for many kids (and parents encourage this). Nor, do most schools seem to actually hold students responsible for much, unless it is extremely bad. Getting away with small infractions all the time simply leads to trying to do it with larger ones. And, grade inflation is rampant. Somehow, "average" is no longer acceptable. Getting a C is somehow like failure to many kids. Finally, somehow, the connection between basic language skills and elementary math as building blocks for everything else is lost. Reading, and as an extension, writing are "absolutely" required to be able to learn other subjects, even math beyond basic arithmetic. Yet, kids constantly are not given the early help when they need it, and become discouraged and eventually the most challenged simply give up. That of course leads to many of the the other problems already noted. No easy answers. Certainly it is not the teachers' fault for the most part, though a few surely should be weeded out. In California, they pay into their own retirement, and they are not eligible for Social Security; so certainly they should not have that pulled out from beneath them. And, most, even after many years, only make a little more than $60k, while starting pay is less than $40K in most districts, with the likely hood of pink slips every year now, as well. Most dedicated teachers also spend large amounts of their own money for basic supplies today; at one time they spent that money on extra items to enhance the classroom experience. Finally,those who continue to trumpet the short work days, and so on, please open your eyes and see the realities. Most teachers are at the schools a minimum of half an hour early, and many earlier; and they stay after for staff meetings, prep, special help classes, and grading. Then they take stuff home with them a lot of the time. Add on special evening activities, counseling clubs, and, especially the newer teachers, teaching summer school. And, at least in California, they also have to have at least 5 years of college, then get additional updated training. Surely I have missed a lot. I should note that I too quit subbing in high school. After the 2nd physical threat in two assignments, I figured it was not worth it. And, now that I am older, I find myself sticking to the mostly 2nd through 5th, as the middle school kids are becoming more difficult; or I am simply losing my patience.

They have a short article on model kits for training airplane spotters. Six kits are listed as available, and scouts and troops are encouraged to build as many as possible to send to training groups to help better learn plane recognition. Has anyone seen any of these? It would be cool to find one or two, built, or even better, not built.

Article by F.C. Mills, national director of health and safety. Quoting Yale Physiologist Dr. Howard Haggard. Mr. Mills is discussing the "new" health form issued at this time. Mr. Haggard is comparing routine maintenance of cars, to care of ourselves and our children. "It is always amazing to me that people should se so clearly the necessity for correcting the defects of the inanimate machines _ the automobile; see so clearly the cause and effect there, but see it so poorly in regard to the living body. ............It is to me a startling commentary on our civilization of a mechanical age that we will give automobiles benefits that we will not give to school children."