skeptic

Event went off well; weather was almost perfect. Slept out under stars and did not have to zip the bag, yet comfortable. My boys had fun, though did not choose well in events to try; waited too long for a couple, which kept them from doing more. They are starting to act like a patrol; but long way to go. Am zonked, and will take a couple of days to recuperate. Stew turned out pretty well, but forgot to bring salt and pepper to add to taste. Campfire was impressive to start, and they retired two American flags with respect and dignity.

BS-87; you are beginning to sound like Trump. Lots of noise with NO reality. Any bets as to how long this idiotic thread will continue? Will it end up beating the infamous Eagle thread from a while back?

Desert; We cannot have open fires in our campsites, not even charcoal. They have a permit for the campfire bowl, and O.A. Dutch oven contest, or just cooking with it, has to be done on a large cement slab in the open field. I have a single burner Coleman I got to use with the dutch oven when I cannot have a fire. It works well. Am taking my #14 this time, since I am making a big pot of stew. Also will take the 12, so we can use it for heating water, and possibly other things. Last word was that we would have close to 500 this time. Will be the largest in many years for us.

Meet kids at 4PM to go to the camp. Short drive, but really slow dirt road for six miles. Still worrying about the compass course I have set up; hope to have time to recheck again. Feeding the whole group, 11 if they all show, and I have not shopped for beef (for the stew)and am in sticker shock. But got onions, celery, carrots (baby in bag), garlic, and mushrooms at the 99 Cent Store, along with 3 bags of rolls. So, that offset the meat I guess. Have to go start cutting up the beef and bagging it for the cooler. One and a half tri-tips at 2.97 a pound. With 15 events and temps in the high 70's to low 80's they should be hungry. Just hope my allergies do not go berserk; the camp is rolling pasture and oak with everything starting to bloom. We also have grazing cattle on the property which leave us their calling cards. Great weather forecast though; not too hot and not cold at night. All new boys, so should be an adventure. Scottish theme, with some traditional Scottish events, and take offs on some. Haggis toss is water balloons.

I am beginning to really understand Diogenes now. We certainly could benefit from a truly "honest man". Someone find me a lantern.

How many of us were really "natural born"? Unless you were born at home without the aid of any doctors or medical materials, then you cannot claim to be "natural born". At least that is my definition. (;-}>

Almost forgot the lovely week I spent as a dishwasher on the night shift of a restaurant. Had to do the pots and pans, etc. Not only nasty, but saw what went on in the back of the kitchen. Quit when I came down with a fungus on my arms from the grease and filth.

Nasty dirt; cleaning Foster's Freeze every day before school or early on weekends. Especially bad was the grease disposal, smelled so bad it turned your stomach. Had a couple times where the women's restroom was the worst due to inconsiderate women leaving nasty messes. Just dirt, dirt, was road repair in the national forest; swamping grader or Cat, or putting in drainage chutes and pipes. Close behind that was working on the track crew in the open pit salt mine in the middle of the desert.

Just for info, the four noted in the 1920 report were a one reel entitled "Days of Real Sport", a two reeler named "America's Heritage" (about an Akron, Oh troop venture); these were from prior to 1919 apparently. Two more, from 1919, were "Adventures of a Boy Scout", and "Knights of the Square Table". They note that the Motion Picture Weeklies were very cooperative in featuring these films; I believe that was some kind of early distributor of short film. Ford and Goodyear were involved in at least two of these films; so if any of them still exist, the corporate historians, if they exist, might shed additional light. In our council, we have an early 30's film about our second scout camp. It was made around 1934, and showed activities in the camp. Someone had it digitized a number of years back, so we can view it today with newer technology. As far as I know, the original is still intact. It is fun to watch, though typically grainy and jumpy.

Does anyone on here know much about the very early Boy Scout related films? Just received a copy of the 1920 Annual Report, and found a mention of two films that had just been released, and a note about two others from even earlier that apparently were doing well. Am assuming these films were being shown in the theaters. That was still the silent era if I remember correctly. Would be interesting to see some of those. Will have to go back and find the titles they spoke about and post them.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

And if he were listed as "white" or "Muslim", what would that have to do with anything? He "is" half white; and religious connection of a newborn has absolutely no connection to an adult over 40, other than to indicate the likely beliefs of his parents. Enough already!

Again, I am "skeptical" that much of what was the norm when I was in school would fly in today's "me first", "don't hurt my kid's feelings" society. Certainly, as far as determining my own incentive to find a better than menial job, was the fact I did menial jobs. I had my first job starting the summer after my freshman year, cleaning up Foster's Freeze before school. Had to be there at 5:30AM, and still get to school before first bell at 8AM. Did that til I graduated. In between, I cleaned motel rooms, house sat, did yard work (I lived in the desert), worked as a helper on moving vans, delivered packages during Christmas when the Marine base got tons of mail, and kicked carpet one summer. For seven month before I went in the AF, I worked in an open pit salt mine where I set charges and worked on the track crew moving rail, ties, and driving spikes. After the service, during the summer between college terms I was a forest service laborer, swamper on tractors, and truck driver. None of this hurt me, but it certainly helped me focus on finding something a little less dirty and exhausting. One thing that comes to mind is that when I first went to college straight out of high school, I really was not ready, even though I was near the top of my class. I played too much, and almost flunked out. By the time I went back, at 25, on the G.I. Bill, I was far more focused and did better. When I went back to grad school nearing 30, I did even better yet. So maturity has something to do with how you react to educational opportunities I think. I suspect that many who rebel at 16, if they spent some time in meaningful, but needed work, they might be better candidates for advanced skills, whether academic or vocational. Finding something that will work for most is the real challenge. It may take dozens of variations and attempts for some. And, we will NEVER succeed with them all, so we need to accept that. Enough rambling.

Beavah, I really do not have an answer that makes sense in today's society. Certainly something like fines for not making kids actually be in school might help; though reality is that the same people would simply ignore the fines, even if the kids are expelled. Parents that want to take a kid out for something other than doctor appointment and such, should have to request it and indicate how the student will make up the missed work; and kids should still be accountable to catch up on missed work in most instances. That is part of the problem. When I was in school, if I got in trouble there, I was in even more when I got home or my parents came for me. Respect for adults in general, and basic manners were the normal expectation. I also would like to see the schools able to stand up for the rights of the majority, in that they should not have to deal with the kids who have physical or emotional issues that are a "constant" disruption to the class; indiscriminate mainlining just because the parent does not want to stigmatize is simply not fair to the rest of the class that they are in. Would like the schools to get rid of intercoms that blare interruptions to the classes, for the phones to not be ringing for any minor thing, for runners not to constantly just appear to interrupt the lessons, and for teachers to know they will be backed up in most cases should the need arise. Would like a system that at least attempts to find children with basic reading and math issues early enough to get them the help they need "before" they get pushed into other subjects they cannot understand without those basics. Personally, I have no problem with reasonable dress codes that do not allow suggestive clothing, or things that are insulting to others in some way; no problem with very strict cell phone rules, including confiscation if it disrupts a class; no problem with reasonable expectations of civil language; and would welcome closed campuses.. I personally would love to see cameras, with proper taping, in every classroom to prove disrespect from students to others, including the teacher, as well as protect the students and teachers from false accusations; it is not an invasion of privacy, as it is a public school. After 13 years as a sub, I think I have seen just about every thing and had some of it aimed at me. The really sad thing is that 95% of the kids are fine; but the other 5% simply makes things miserable in too many cases. But, as we know, I am old and out of touch with things. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

While there is ABSOLUTELY a huge problem within our public schools, much of which can be addressed by strict policies regarding attendance, discipline, and respect, we really cannot make a fair comparison of the charter schools and non-charters within districts I don't feel. Charters are successful more because of the students attending; they are the ones whose families seem to better understand the importance of education. The support outside of school directly effects the outcome within the school. And, many of these parents directly involve themselves gratis in the functions within the schools, resulting in good examples to their own children and the benefit of all those receiving the dedicated programs. Of course, the fact that the charters and private schools tend to take the best students just leads to even poorer results within the student populations left in the traditional schools. So, the charter focus needs to be the focus in ALL the schools. But, it cannot work, if there are no strictly upheld consequences for the non performing students and their non-supportive families. Teachers will seldom succeed at high levels if their time is too dominated by disruption and bad attitudes; nor if they feel they cannot realistically grade the student work. All of this has been discussed over and over. The real trouble is that we continue to turn a blind eye within most of our school system. We know the answers, or at least what will help. Somehow we have to find the courage to suck it up and do what needs to be done. And we need to stop pushing the idea that every kid NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE, or they are failures. It is likely that barely 50% of the kids in school really will benefit from traditional academic college. The other half really need to be channeled into the trades or other areas. They will be far less likely to become disinterested problems if they are involved in something in which they are actually interested. And that includes many areas of the arts, as well as trades. We NEED plumbers, electricians, carpenters, auto mechanics, computer "repair people", culinary experts and so on. End of current rant.

Actually, the traditional bell curve was derived from the shape of a bell, where 5% are A's, 15% B's, 60% C's, 15% D's, and 5% F's. A variant has 20% B's and D's, with 50% C's. Of course that actuality has long ago gone by the wayside. The idea that average is normal is not acceptable anymore.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Similar to the Rockwell ingots a while back. Now they go for substantial amounts on eBay. Take it or leave it; I will leave it.

Beavah and Pack; Thank you for clearing my "poorly stated" idea up. I agree with both of you in that regard. What I intended to say was that as earlier empires grew, they initially still focused on their central, starting point, expanding and incorporating land and people into their slave/serf/warrior systems. Those core cities became very advanced, for their period. The core also was the source for continued growth, where the funding and supplies were controlled. But, as they over extended their reach, supply lines got too long, and expansion bogged down. Eventually the malaise of too much comfort too centrally located, along with greed and avarice in the ruling groups led to the demise. The point about "History" is still the main idea; ignore it at our peril.

It seems to me that the point is that all these previous "super powers" built their highest level of success on focusing on their own infrastructures and people first. Only when they allowed themselves to reach too far, either militarily or politically did they begin to lose their grip on success. The expense for over reaching ultimately led to the demise of their central core, and the eventual slide to mediocrity or lower; and in some cases uprisings of the the citizenry. We have all been reminded that those who forget or ignore history are doomed to failure.

Pack; am afraid that many have learned to ignore the smell; or blame it on someone or something else.

Yep; and I still have my notched stick (never really got it made into a real arrow). One notch, gotten right before the end when one of my "friends?" tricked me into a short response to a question. He thought it was funny of course; said I could not get out without at least one. But I was pushing sixteen then, so think I handled it well (he was able to get up; just kidding).

Personally, I would not be averse to having us go back to the time when we were not the defender (supposedly, but really a lot of political economics involved) of the world; where our assistance to other countries, especially developing countries, was limited to the lend a hand mode; where our priorities and financial resources (of the government) were used to improve our own country's infrastructure and schools; where rights were not so skewed to the "me/mine" idea. Many of our problems today are directly related to the very thing Eisenhower warned against. Add the oil, pharmaceutical firms, and big financial groups to his areas of concern. We cannot ignore the rest of the world; but we still need to focus more on our own issues, and far less on those of other countries. Certainly the military has its place, and we need to be able to properly defend ourselves should the "real need" occur. But think about it; every missal shot could pay for a new school; every plane lost is a cost that could rebuild hundreds of miles of highway; every soldier lost leaves not only grief, but financial hardship in many instances for the families; and the injuries to those not killed, cost even more problems both for the families, but for the society struggling to support their therapies. The monies used in Afghanistan war; how much more effect might they have had if we had used them "to teach them to fish"? Nothing is simple, especially in the almost totally linked world through modern technologies; but it just seems to me that we have lost sight of the things most important, especially on the governmental levels. We, as citizens of the United States, still appear to still be some of the most giving and "lend and hand" people of the world. This is seen by the continued efforts of the rank and file citizens to lend aide when major disasters occur. That is the face we should have focused on the world theater, in my opinion. Yes, I know! I am thinking in a naive way, actually believing we are better than we present ourselves. Maybe if we, as a people, actually lived our lives more in line with the "Scout Law", things would be less fractured and contentious. One can dream! One of the perks of being old.

Speaking of arrows. We old guys went through Ordeals where they notched your candidate arrow/stick if members decided you were not meeting the candidate challenges. In our lodge, five notches resulted in likely failure of the induction, though I think they had an appeal process. It occasionally became a problem if not properly overseen by fair minded adults; but rarely did it lead to a real blackball. Yet, that was the main reason the tradition was eliminated. Not sure they accomplished much by doing it, as it contributes to the idea that there are really no consequences to breaking or bending the challenge rules. One of the many things that has changed dramatically since "way back when".

It is interesting to see how broad the project development and completion process can be. Ultimately, it is a very subjective evaluation, but basically will end up with a minimum hour level of 50 to 100 on average. A few will fall lower, either due to poor record keeping (not counting prep hours completely, or forgetting to log scouts); an absolute minimal, rush project; or a super organized scout with the ability to get good production with small resources. Then there are the "super" projects that seem to multiply exponentially as they progress, ending up with far more hours than would have occurred had they done what was actually initially proposed. The biggest problem with those is that it can lead to intimidation of later project developers, thinking they have to reach "that" level. Then there are the truly unique, inventive projects that generally end up being both large hour producers, definitely newsworthy, and occasionally continue to grow and perpetuate themselves far beyond the initial project. An example is the Bible project of a few years back. Of course, I suspect that every council/district has those "pattern" projects, such as the park kiosks that we have six to ten of some years. They are good basic projects, but often are short on real development by the later scouts who choose them; and they often are repeated within the same unit a number of times, just in a different place. Another in our area the past few years is the school garden project; a place for elementary students to learn about plants and growing stuff. We, as mentors, need to accept that every potential Eagle is different, and has his own level of self accomplishment and "doing his best". But as long as the project meets the requirement, we should not subvert the actual intent. Ultimately, the scout will know when he did not do as well as he could have, or really did not measure up to the intent. Yet, sometimes that leads to his growth as he matures, or as he realizes how his project compares to another friend's. Every success is measured in the minds of the person involved, and in the minds of those making judgments. We need to simply do what we can to encourage, but overcome our own inclinations to take over or brow beat. JMHO

Beavah; I think we know the answer to your last question.

Yes, I have to agree with Desert; when electing actually was choosing someone the troop felt really deserved it. Many probably never even know that at one time there were limits on how many eligible could be elected based on how many met the minimum requirements and also on the size of the unit. And if I remember correctly, a scout only had one vote, not one for each eligible candidate. And of course, there were actual "tap outs", and the Ordeal was far stricter in holding candidates to the challenges. I was a Life scout and 15 when I was tapped out. It really meant more then I think. But maybe it is just nostalgia.