skeptic

Acco gets the rubber chicken; good job. See other thread please.

"Obviously the home of today is not the home of yesterday. Times change and with them also our attitudes of mind and conditions of living. Perhaps we have lost something in the evolution from the old fashioned home to the modern one, but certainly we have also gained greatly in many respects." Perhaps someone will actually look at this now. Amazing how often things make sense even when they are old. "Certainly every boy deserves and should have, so far as is humanly possible, a happy home in which father and mother share his interests in comradeship and understanding. It is likewise the responsibility of the home to see to it that the boy's out-side-the home life is also happy, constructive and of the right sort. It is along this line that Scouting has a very real contribution to make. It aims to supplement and intensify the best influences of family life, to work with the home for the happiness and well being of the boy,......" "A boy does what he knows, is what he does, and what he is going to be, he is now becoming."

"Obviously the home of today is not the home of yesterday. Times change and with them also our attitudes of mind and conditions of living. Perhaps we have lost something in the evolution from the old fashioned home to the modern one, but certainly we have also gained greatly in many respects." "Certainly every boy deserves and should have, so far as is humanly possible, a happy home in which father and mother share his interests in comradeship and understanding. It is likewise the responsibility of the home to see to it that the boy's out-side-the home life is also happy, constructive and of the right sort. It is along this line that Scouting has a very real contribution to make. It aims to supplement and intensify the best influences of family life, to work with the home for the happiness and well being of the boy,......" "A boy does what he knows, is what he does, and what he is going to be, he is now becoming."

Another response for consideration. Much of what he says makes sense from my personal beliefs. Still, I realize this is a hard subject with which to deal. http://blog.sojo.net/2011/05/04/is-it-moral-to-celebrate-a-persons-death/

Can't we all just Grok each other?

Barry; Not building refineries is the decision of the oil companies, not a government one. They keep saying it is too expensive up front, and so they do not want to do it. Maybe, they could take a little of the obscene profits and do it, rather than continuing to say they cannot afford it. Heaven forbid they make a little less, while the rest of us perhaps have a bit of relief.

From the perspective of SM, it is imperative that I take my responsibility seriously in regard to holding a scout to a consistent, but fair standard. That is delineated by the Oath and Law primarily. Weighing the performance of an individual is very subjective, and needs to consider age, maturity (some older scouts are still very immature), special circumstances such as diagnosed issues or diseases, and honesty with the scout and his parents as to my expectations. When a boy starts, it is pretty simple; I review the guidelines, the Oath,Law, Motto, and Slogan, explaining my views on how he meets these general guidelines. I try to establish that it is his "best", based on "I will do my best", that will be my measurement. From there, it becomes a constant weighing of observations, things brought to me by other leaders or scouts, and so on. If a situation arises that requires more than a simple reminder, then it is important it be dealt with sooner than later. If it is extremely serious, my actions usually are quick, but then brought to the parent committee for review, which in turn may, or may not lead to additional accountability of the scout or family, or even an override of my first response. The most important thing is that these expectations need to be consistent, fair, and start from day one. Yes, age and maturity, as noted, are factors. Extremely serious issues should include whatever outside individuals needed, and definitely need to be reported in writing to the council. If a boy, or leader, is asked to leave, that too should be reported with details to the council, and kept by the unit on file. This rarely occurs, but it can unfortunately. In almost 34 years as a SM, we have had fewer than a half dozen issues leading to expulsion; but we have likely had 10-15 that either held up rank advancement, led saw probation, or a scout leaving due to the review with myself or committee. There have been two that were considerations at Eagle boards, but did not keep the boy from receiving the award. Both of these are now adults, and they have told me that their experiences dealing with the problems were major turning points in their lives. We do no one, scout, troop, families, or the BSA any favors by sweeping things under the carpet, though giving a second or third chance is fine in most cases, as long as the problem is still dealt with and the scout knows what needs to be corrected. Scouts are no different than other boys, except that they supposedly are honor bound to live to a higher code. A major point of holding an adult leadership position is to "actually lead", to set the example, and to do what needs to be done, even if you know it will cause discomfort, emotional upheaval, or flak to fly. And so the sermon is done. JMHO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Beavah; Can you send me "Joe's" address please?

OGE; I totally agree. Great characterization. And, from that perspective, I can see similarities to Obama. He too entered office with high expectations of doing things he felt important and worthwhile; but he really was not prepared for the gridlock of the Washington hierarchy. The difference is likely in his response and continuing struggle to adjust and find other ways. Our country's current problems, as has been noted many times, are not the fault of one president. Most of the worst issues have developed over at least 20 to 30 years, and just simply came to head at the end of the Bush II era and continued to explode into the current administration. It certainly does not help that our so called representatives mostly still do not have a clue, and simply continue to posture and refuse to find middle ground. JMHO

I would certainly NOT even consider the idea of kicking a boy this young out based on this. At that age, any number of things could be in play, depending on what is happening in his family, as well as his intellectual development. If he is advanced for his age in his thinking, he may just be in his first period of questioning his parents and what he has been TOLD. There may have been a recent emotionally damaging experience with his church, or losing a loved one, of other similar issues. Definitely should touch base with the parents, but carefully. One of the reasons for reverence in scouting is to help young people decide these things on their own levels and inter-personally. Certainly it is too early to hold back advancement I would think. Sometimes I think we might be better served to have the definition shown for reverence to say something like, "A scout is spiritual, and seeks a greater power. He respects the convictions of others in their own spiritual journey." But that is just me.

At camporee, with around 500+ attendees, a lot of call outs were made; think they indicated close to 50. They culled them out one at a time from a huge circle, and took forever. After a full day of events in warm weather, as well as the dust and pollen from the pastureland, it seemed like it was far too long, and soon lost its impact on the rest. Any ideas how they might do it a bit quicker in large events? I think they could do an entire troop together, using proper number of guides needed and simply take them as a group for the actual Tap Out before exiting the area. Would likely cut time in half.

Event went off well; weather was almost perfect. Slept out under stars and did not have to zip the bag, yet comfortable. My boys had fun, though did not choose well in events to try; waited too long for a couple, which kept them from doing more. They are starting to act like a patrol; but long way to go. Am zonked, and will take a couple of days to recuperate. Stew turned out pretty well, but forgot to bring salt and pepper to add to taste. Campfire was impressive to start, and they retired two American flags with respect and dignity.

BS-87; you are beginning to sound like Trump. Lots of noise with NO reality. Any bets as to how long this idiotic thread will continue? Will it end up beating the infamous Eagle thread from a while back?

Desert; We cannot have open fires in our campsites, not even charcoal. They have a permit for the campfire bowl, and O.A. Dutch oven contest, or just cooking with it, has to be done on a large cement slab in the open field. I have a single burner Coleman I got to use with the dutch oven when I cannot have a fire. It works well. Am taking my #14 this time, since I am making a big pot of stew. Also will take the 12, so we can use it for heating water, and possibly other things. Last word was that we would have close to 500 this time. Will be the largest in many years for us.

Meet kids at 4PM to go to the camp. Short drive, but really slow dirt road for six miles. Still worrying about the compass course I have set up; hope to have time to recheck again. Feeding the whole group, 11 if they all show, and I have not shopped for beef (for the stew)and am in sticker shock. But got onions, celery, carrots (baby in bag), garlic, and mushrooms at the 99 Cent Store, along with 3 bags of rolls. So, that offset the meat I guess. Have to go start cutting up the beef and bagging it for the cooler. One and a half tri-tips at 2.97 a pound. With 15 events and temps in the high 70's to low 80's they should be hungry. Just hope my allergies do not go berserk; the camp is rolling pasture and oak with everything starting to bloom. We also have grazing cattle on the property which leave us their calling cards. Great weather forecast though; not too hot and not cold at night. All new boys, so should be an adventure. Scottish theme, with some traditional Scottish events, and take offs on some. Haggis toss is water balloons.

I am beginning to really understand Diogenes now. We certainly could benefit from a truly "honest man". Someone find me a lantern.

How many of us were really "natural born"? Unless you were born at home without the aid of any doctors or medical materials, then you cannot claim to be "natural born". At least that is my definition. (;-}>

Almost forgot the lovely week I spent as a dishwasher on the night shift of a restaurant. Had to do the pots and pans, etc. Not only nasty, but saw what went on in the back of the kitchen. Quit when I came down with a fungus on my arms from the grease and filth.

Nasty dirt; cleaning Foster's Freeze every day before school or early on weekends. Especially bad was the grease disposal, smelled so bad it turned your stomach. Had a couple times where the women's restroom was the worst due to inconsiderate women leaving nasty messes. Just dirt, dirt, was road repair in the national forest; swamping grader or Cat, or putting in drainage chutes and pipes. Close behind that was working on the track crew in the open pit salt mine in the middle of the desert.

Just for info, the four noted in the 1920 report were a one reel entitled "Days of Real Sport", a two reeler named "America's Heritage" (about an Akron, Oh troop venture); these were from prior to 1919 apparently. Two more, from 1919, were "Adventures of a Boy Scout", and "Knights of the Square Table". They note that the Motion Picture Weeklies were very cooperative in featuring these films; I believe that was some kind of early distributor of short film. Ford and Goodyear were involved in at least two of these films; so if any of them still exist, the corporate historians, if they exist, might shed additional light. In our council, we have an early 30's film about our second scout camp. It was made around 1934, and showed activities in the camp. Someone had it digitized a number of years back, so we can view it today with newer technology. As far as I know, the original is still intact. It is fun to watch, though typically grainy and jumpy.

Does anyone on here know much about the very early Boy Scout related films? Just received a copy of the 1920 Annual Report, and found a mention of two films that had just been released, and a note about two others from even earlier that apparently were doing well. Am assuming these films were being shown in the theaters. That was still the silent era if I remember correctly. Would be interesting to see some of those. Will have to go back and find the titles they spoke about and post them.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

And if he were listed as "white" or "Muslim", what would that have to do with anything? He "is" half white; and religious connection of a newborn has absolutely no connection to an adult over 40, other than to indicate the likely beliefs of his parents. Enough already!

Again, I am "skeptical" that much of what was the norm when I was in school would fly in today's "me first", "don't hurt my kid's feelings" society. Certainly, as far as determining my own incentive to find a better than menial job, was the fact I did menial jobs. I had my first job starting the summer after my freshman year, cleaning up Foster's Freeze before school. Had to be there at 5:30AM, and still get to school before first bell at 8AM. Did that til I graduated. In between, I cleaned motel rooms, house sat, did yard work (I lived in the desert), worked as a helper on moving vans, delivered packages during Christmas when the Marine base got tons of mail, and kicked carpet one summer. For seven month before I went in the AF, I worked in an open pit salt mine where I set charges and worked on the track crew moving rail, ties, and driving spikes. After the service, during the summer between college terms I was a forest service laborer, swamper on tractors, and truck driver. None of this hurt me, but it certainly helped me focus on finding something a little less dirty and exhausting. One thing that comes to mind is that when I first went to college straight out of high school, I really was not ready, even though I was near the top of my class. I played too much, and almost flunked out. By the time I went back, at 25, on the G.I. Bill, I was far more focused and did better. When I went back to grad school nearing 30, I did even better yet. So maturity has something to do with how you react to educational opportunities I think. I suspect that many who rebel at 16, if they spent some time in meaningful, but needed work, they might be better candidates for advanced skills, whether academic or vocational. Finding something that will work for most is the real challenge. It may take dozens of variations and attempts for some. And, we will NEVER succeed with them all, so we need to accept that. Enough rambling.

Beavah, I really do not have an answer that makes sense in today's society. Certainly something like fines for not making kids actually be in school might help; though reality is that the same people would simply ignore the fines, even if the kids are expelled. Parents that want to take a kid out for something other than doctor appointment and such, should have to request it and indicate how the student will make up the missed work; and kids should still be accountable to catch up on missed work in most instances. That is part of the problem. When I was in school, if I got in trouble there, I was in even more when I got home or my parents came for me. Respect for adults in general, and basic manners were the normal expectation. I also would like to see the schools able to stand up for the rights of the majority, in that they should not have to deal with the kids who have physical or emotional issues that are a "constant" disruption to the class; indiscriminate mainlining just because the parent does not want to stigmatize is simply not fair to the rest of the class that they are in. Would like the schools to get rid of intercoms that blare interruptions to the classes, for the phones to not be ringing for any minor thing, for runners not to constantly just appear to interrupt the lessons, and for teachers to know they will be backed up in most cases should the need arise. Would like a system that at least attempts to find children with basic reading and math issues early enough to get them the help they need "before" they get pushed into other subjects they cannot understand without those basics. Personally, I have no problem with reasonable dress codes that do not allow suggestive clothing, or things that are insulting to others in some way; no problem with very strict cell phone rules, including confiscation if it disrupts a class; no problem with reasonable expectations of civil language; and would welcome closed campuses.. I personally would love to see cameras, with proper taping, in every classroom to prove disrespect from students to others, including the teacher, as well as protect the students and teachers from false accusations; it is not an invasion of privacy, as it is a public school. After 13 years as a sub, I think I have seen just about every thing and had some of it aimed at me. The really sad thing is that 95% of the kids are fine; but the other 5% simply makes things miserable in too many cases. But, as we know, I am old and out of touch with things. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

While there is ABSOLUTELY a huge problem within our public schools, much of which can be addressed by strict policies regarding attendance, discipline, and respect, we really cannot make a fair comparison of the charter schools and non-charters within districts I don't feel. Charters are successful more because of the students attending; they are the ones whose families seem to better understand the importance of education. The support outside of school directly effects the outcome within the school. And, many of these parents directly involve themselves gratis in the functions within the schools, resulting in good examples to their own children and the benefit of all those receiving the dedicated programs. Of course, the fact that the charters and private schools tend to take the best students just leads to even poorer results within the student populations left in the traditional schools. So, the charter focus needs to be the focus in ALL the schools. But, it cannot work, if there are no strictly upheld consequences for the non performing students and their non-supportive families. Teachers will seldom succeed at high levels if their time is too dominated by disruption and bad attitudes; nor if they feel they cannot realistically grade the student work. All of this has been discussed over and over. The real trouble is that we continue to turn a blind eye within most of our school system. We know the answers, or at least what will help. Somehow we have to find the courage to suck it up and do what needs to be done. And we need to stop pushing the idea that every kid NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE, or they are failures. It is likely that barely 50% of the kids in school really will benefit from traditional academic college. The other half really need to be channeled into the trades or other areas. They will be far less likely to become disinterested problems if they are involved in something in which they are actually interested. And that includes many areas of the arts, as well as trades. We NEED plumbers, electricians, carpenters, auto mechanics, computer "repair people", culinary experts and so on. End of current rant.