skeptic

Hey, they do a fine job at Burbank. I lost my beard trimming scissors before the change in that element; and recently, they had no problem taking my 4 ounce tube (half full) of fungal salve when we went to Vegas. Last summer I felt bad for a jambo SM who had two boys forget to put something in checked bags, one was a pocket knife I think that was in his pocket, one of the extra small ones so popular in current scout shorts. They had these kids with 3 agents, as well as the SM. They were still there 20 minutes later when I left the area. Once determined it was a simple mistake, you would think it would have been solved. "Common sense", I yearn for your return.

Overall, a good segment. Definitely a positive shot for Scouting. Was great that they did not edit out the "boy" humor when it occurred, such as the baked potato covered with mud. That is exactly the way kids of that age (and adults with twisted adolescent thinking)act and speak. What did not make much sense to me was the uniforming. Reality is that they would not have been doing wilderness survival in a full "class A" uniform with necker and slide. But, it did add to the P.R. element of the segment, showing the uniform identities of Boy Scouts and Venturers. Next we can hope National might find a way to get broader distribution of the Outdoor Channel program somehow. Also, a T.V. Mike Rowe Scouting segment would be a huge boon. One can dream.

So, this shows that those least likely to afford it pay very little; but those most able pay the least. The major hit is by those of us that are in the second quartile, more or less. Very few of our "representatives" fall into that level; they are mostly in the top quartile, so of course pay less percentage. And we wonder why they side with the rich; most of them are the rich.

So, now the Republican negotiator bows out (probably a better term could be found), of the budget talks because the other side continues to insist that income has to be part of the solution, either taxes or closing of loopholes that favor a tiny proportion of society (those who have the Republicans in their pockets). Compromise; finding a middle ground, or giving something to get something. What confuses me is that I cannot find many "regular people" who have a problem with stopping the tax breaks for the rich, or closing their loopholes so that they actually pay for their profits. It would be interesting to see a completely unbiased, balanced survey of maybe 2% of the on the street citizens regarding how they really feel about the Republican refusal to even consider income and higher taxes on those feeling the least pain. I suspect that not only would they smack the Republicans down on that idea, but they also would have some pretty harsh words for the Democrats too regarding other issues. The reality is that the general public has zero confidence in either side. But our so called elected "representatives" hardly ever actually care about those they supposedly serve. When the oil companies start actually spending profits in long term projects to improve their business, such as new refineries, and the financial wizards of the large institutions start actually giving loans without impossible barriers to overcome, and all of the corporate big shots give back some of their inflated compensation,then maybe we (the 97% or so of the common people)will have some hope. Right now, I personally would like to chuck them all. That said, what we might get is even a scarier proposition.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Engineer: Hopefully you do not consider the FS using the camp as a base to be a negative. A few years ago, the Day Fire here in SCal was in our camp's vicinity, even threatened it briefly. They used the reservoir for helicopter water pickups, and set up one of two base camps (the other was in the city at the fairgrounds)at 3-Falls. While it may have been a bit hard on the few scouts that could not camp during that period, it was a huge PR positive. We are still getting the benefit of that, after several years. Service, including the use of our facilities, is part and parcel of the Scouting experience.

Yep, I understand completely E. Over the years I have had a few PLC's that actually functioned close to the ideal, but rarely. In the past though, most did a moderately good job with enough prodding. I am a bit alarmed at the more recent groups though, as they appear to almost "be afraid" to actually make suggestions or decisions. It seems a reflection of the overprotective society that has arisen, along with the idea that somehow making mistakes is not acceptable. Of course, we all know that learning is built very often on understanding the mistakes we make. Part of this can be seen in the changes in National policies that have taken many of the original PLC responsibilities away, or modified them to a point of having little significance for growth. One example is the BOR, once done by the PLC with an adult observer. This was not only an efficient process, but a huge element of leadership growth. This included an occasional disciplinary review to deal with troublesome scouts. We adult leaders, as monitors, seldom had to step in except to possibly make small modifications; but they were generally very fair, and much more acceptable to the scouts. And, overall scout participation in "their" program, and reactions to "their" discipline was good. But this has been discussed ad finitum. It would be great if we might go back a bit and re-implement some of the basic things that let them actually make them grow without too much interference, other than for real safety.

A mention was made last night at roundtable that Lion was going to be reborn in some manner. Does anyone know anything about this, or is it just another rumor?

Hawkrod; Is that camp held at Emerson or Helendade; or perhaps now at the Big Bear camp? You mentioned fire damage, so thought it might be Helendade. Did you see the three graphics I posted on the Inland Empire Facebook?

So, where ever they seem to get the idea, the decision has been made that the scout candidate "should not" distribute reference letters, that this should be the review board's responsibility. Additionally, supposedly this is because they want it to be the same throughout the council; yet every volunteer to whom I have talked does not understand the decision either. Had a board earlier this week, and we all talked about this. Our district AC has put the reference letters back on the troop committee; but that is not what the SSE in charge says should happen. The real shame is that once again someone has felt that the candidate should not have the responsibility put on them, even though National actually states it is okay. They keep talking about adding to the requirements because it is not on the actual app with the list of references. Just makes no sense to almost all of us. So, will be interesting to see if we have a huge drop off in letters, especially in districts that try to do it within the AC, rather than ours, with its putting it back on the troop. Still do not know what made this become such an issue in the first place, unless some parent complained, so this is the knee jerk reaction. Either that, or the council office simply does not want to deal with the letters in any way. Taking a deep breath. We do this for the boys! Deep breath.

While the museum is definitely worth the visit, it has many opportunities not really being met, in my opinion. And as far as historical research goes, it is nearly impossible to really get access. I finally gave up, as I simply do not have the right connections to get past the barriers. I would dearly love being able to research my area's pre-council records prior to 1921 when we were chartered. Local records indicate hundreds of scouts from 1910 on, but very little is known about the units, as they were all at large charters, the records of which are hopefully in a file someplace. I say hopefully, because sometimes short sighted people toss old stuff that seems of little importance to them. The biggest thing I would hope to find would be one or two Eagles from prior to our council founding, as there were a substantial number in the first decade, which would indicate a strong possibility of a few earlier. Oh well. Just keep working on what is available locally through newspaper research and the local museums.

Ours this year is supposed to try and only focus on traditional scout skills, while leaving stuff you can do indoors alone. That is a better approach I think. They noted precamp that they are going to try and have boys do a dinner for second class; it would take the place of that evening's dining hall meal. We do not have in camp cooking, as the fire danger is usually too high and so no open fires or charcoal are allowed; though using camp stoves can be done with proper arrangements.

I have had a pen friend in England since 1965, and was fortunate to visit her family and her in 1967 while stationed in Germany with the AF. We have kept in touch all these years, and recently visited here in California. She is still in awe of the distances we take as common everyday drives. As Cambridgeskip noted, they simply really do not equate. Back in 1976 Sue's husband, a member of the elite British Parachute team, came to Yuma, Arizona for winter training. While there, they arranged a trip to Disneyland for them. He called me and wanted to know if I was close to Disneyland, as Sue had told him to contact me if at all possible. I lived in the San Fernando Valley at the time, about 75 miles from the park. So, I arranged to meet him at the hotel and take him to my apartment in the Valley for supper and a visit. On our way to my place, he commented that we must be near the Oregon border, as he had ridden roughly 500 miles north already. He just was floored when I told him it was not but a third of the way there. He also could not quite yet grasp the variations in topography; they drove on Interstate 10 from Yuma through the below sea level area of Salton Sea, through the San Gorgonio pass with 11,400 foot San Gorgonio on one side and 10,800 foot San Jacinto on the other, into the cities. We often do not realize just how blessed we are in regard to diversity of landforms and cultural exposures. Nothing I saw in Europe, in relation to physical geography, was particularly unusual, even though I was in Bavaria and visited the Alps. But, the cultural exposures were eye opening, with the depth of history so easily accessible. We have had a number of international trips from our council in the past, outside of jambo; but none recently. The last one was to Discovery in Great Britain to which I had a scout go. But there were only ten total, including the adults. Interesting discussion.

Oh come now; we should expect a scout to actually pay attention and figure something out for himself? It is clearly too difficult to understand, as it says to submit proof; and it does not say how to do that. So, it is the fault of the instructor, camp and program director, his SM, his parents, and anybody else that has to hold his hand and make sure he understands.

According to the Museum Facebook link, they had one, but it has been rotated out. They have not yet indicated if we might see another one later, but they admit having recently removed one. Thought I had seen something there when I last visited a few years back. We will see.

Funny story regarding his signature. In 1985, at the jambo, I had him sign a handbook, but neglected to ask him to sign a neckerchief I was getting autographed by various people. I did land a CSE signature from Ben Love on the neckerchief. When they did not ask for my help in 1989 until too late for me to arrange, I did not go. One of our local adults did me a favor and took that 85 necker with him and got it signed. When he gave it back to me, there was the signature, bars and all, right on top of Ben Love's name. Now GBB was getting pretty old by then, but it has been suggested that he may very likely have done that on purpose. So, I have a really unique signed neckerchief from 1985. In regard to West, if you care to find it, you should read the biography by Rowan, as well as the more recent Scott book on the interrelationships of the four principles in the founding, B.P., Seton, Beard, and West. You will really begin to understand the struggles in those first couple of decades.

Pretty sure that actual on water trips, not just paddling around, have had that requirement for a long time. It has kept us from doing some activities due to not having one. They usually will accept a similarly certified person, such as YMCA or other such thing.

I find it somewhat ironic that BP says a National shop does not really check for proper paperwork, while our shop is a stickler. Maybe that is how an eBay seller in our area was able to obtain so many sets of things to sell on line last year, even Distinguished Eagle kits and Silver Beavers. We have a National shop in the valley. I know the individual tried to buy a number of the centennial rank patches in our store and was turned away. He made a killing early on with his items, as there were a lot of people willing to pay high prices to get them, at least initially. EBay apparently will not crack down on restricted, copyrighted items unless the actual holder of the restriction asks them to. And it appears nobody in National cared enough to do anything. They certainly knew about it, as one of their team was at jambo as my super, and she said they did. Just is annoying to me.

When I was first divorced, I had a terrible personal guilt, as I am from the period when "divorce" was seen as a black mark on you personally, as well as a sin within most established churches. We were fortunate to have not had kids to enter into the issues. But, I was helped by my local minister who explained to me a slightly different take on "until death does us part". His view was that the death is of the love and commitment between the two people, not the physical death. God, who is love incarnate, would not expect two people who could not truly love each other, or even possibly respect them, to stay together because they made a "poor choice", especially if very young at the time. That may fly in the face of many, but it still makes sense to me even today. But children need to be part of the mix, and everything possible done to mitigate the negative stuff they face.

oldisnew: Some of us are soooooooooo old that we predate Pinewood races. If I had been a cub, it would have not been a part, as I joined as an 11 year old in 1955; so the Pinewood Derby was just being developed. But I did have some toy cars of some sort, likely models of early 20th century cars; don't really remember when I started building them. And of course, surely I had some kind of basic toy car; but only remember mm dump truck, which was cool because it actually had the back tip if you wanted it to, using a lever on the side; and it was one of those larger metal ones.

Oilman; that must have been hot, literally in the summer. A black interior in Texas during the summer. Ouch.

Interesting the article says he studied kids in kindergarten in 2008 and followed them through fifth grade. His math does not add up, as they would only be in 3rd grade this year. Whatever, we cannot deny that divorce generally has a negative effect on kids, though some are worse than others. It helps a lot if the parents rise above most of the pettiness, and try to not disrupt the kids life too much. If they can keep them in one school, work to common goals for the children, and be civil to each other they will have far less issues with them. This article is very cursory, and appears to only discuss young children. The affects on older preteen and teens is possibly even more critical, due to the other physical things with which they are dealing as well.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

I would simply refuse to pay something like that. There is no way they could actually justify it; if you choose to use your own, then why would they care. The only even remote reason would be that they could have used any unused tent(s) in some other part of the camp. But that still would not be reason to try and charge you. Good luck collecting it.

Certainly, should girls be part of the traditional program, they would likely dominate leadership, if what I see in upper elementary and middle school student leadership in indicative. Wednesday I subbed in a school with grades k-8, and they had an assembly for 5th through 7th to allow speeches from students for next year's school council. There were 10 running for 4 fifth grade rep positions, and only 3 boys were on the list. In all the other positions, only girls were running. At that level, few boys seem to have the interest or willingness to step forward. Not sure about high school, but it seems to me that there are more male leaders in those levels, though they too have more girls interested. Have to agree though that it is only a matter of time.

Personal tents for summer camp can easily be large enough for comfort, as you do not have the weight restrictions backpacking brings. It may take an extra trip or two, if they do not allow dropping off, like most camps do. Just take a family style tent, as someone noted; or use one of the larger domes that have pretty high ceilings, though maybe not high enough to stand completely. I prefer the savings we have bringing our own; but it also allows for more boys to get practice setting tents up and arranging a longer term campsite. Too, you sometimes can choose a far better spot for your tent than those preset, often on ratty platforms with critters living under them. Biggest con is simply getting set up and breaking down. Adds to the time considerations. We often have trouble getting really set up the first afternoon, as the schedules, with rechecks and swim checks are so tight. Would prefer to possibly not have the traditional opening campfire, as it really effects the establishment of camp for the rest of the week, and takes away from the first day's routines.

Well pack, we "old farts" do appreciate the clever riposte here, sometimes even when it is directed towards us.