skeptic

It appears that the Gods have now made their opinion known. By shaking up Washington, maybe some of their brains will fall into place. One can dream I suppose.

While the listed articles shed light on this subject, and show some instances of questionable or likely poor decisions, they also indicate that the rank and file volunteers were often against the transactions, and in some cases led directly to their not happening. The Chicago situation is the most prominent case, as can be seen from this forum. What is not noted in regard to the Chicago outcome, possibly due to the date on the Hearst article, is that the council professionals involved were almost all replaced when National came into the conflict. If local scouters do not utilize their camps or preserves, and the upkeep becomes a lodestone on program and so on, then hard decisions need to be made. We need to do what we can to mitigate the worst of these; but sometimes it has to be due to circumstances over which we really have little control. On the other hand, National needs to look hard at the levels of compensation to some, especially at the top. They also should seriously consider finding ways to help smaller councils hold on to irreplaceable properties by subsidizing and encouraging more use of other scouts and outside organizations. On the other hand, conservation includes management of resources in a mode that tries to mitigate damage or overgrowth. A recent example is the NPS beginning to "remove" forests encroaching on meadowlands in Yosemite due to policies that have stopped natural fires from doing what nature designed. Thinning of overgrowth allows other species to survive due to space and light. Removing diseased or insect filled trees reduces the stress on other trees and wildfire fuel due to dead trees that are tall torches in such instances that allow the fire to spread faster. And it is true that some land can no longer be used as it was 50 or 100 years ago. We can try to assure it is still used as parkland or open space whenever possible. Sometimes that is not a viable option, so the resources should be harvested financially. It is pretty obvious to me that the first linked article is a hatchet job that was written due to our current stances on controversial PC issues. No one will ever be completely satisfied with these things. Overall, BSA still has a far better record in environmental and conservation areas than most large groups.

Reading through a September, 1928 SCOUTING, and came across a couple of interesting statements in the Chief Scout Executive's Page. This was West of course. "It is especially important, as we approach the Presidential Campaign, that all Scout Leaders be fully informed whole-heartedly cooperate in an effort to avoid involving the Boy Scouts of America in controversial questions. Section 2 of Article III of the Constitution reads: "The Boy Scouts of America shall not, through its governing body or through any of its officers, its chartered Councils or members, involve the Boy Scout Movement in any question of a political character, but each official and member shall have freedom of thought and action as an individual." Further on, he states: "The aim and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America is, through a program of wholesome outdoor activity, and the Scout Oath and Law, to develop character and train boys for the responsibilities of citizenship. It is not within the province of the Local Council, or even the National Council, to undertake to pass resolutions or legislate on any one of the many problems before the American people. We are obligated by the Constitution and By-Laws to avoid participation in controversial and political questions." While these statements apply directly to the subject of this thread, I can see how it might also be applied to one of our ongoing points of concern and disagreement in other threads on this forum.

Looked it up, and there have only been the two non person awards, though the Oakridge Boys received it as a group. Also interesting that for some reason, only one person received it in 1975 (Ford) and 1981 (Art Linkletter). Other years saw quite a few, or only 4 or 5. World scouters also have received it fairly often, including recipients of the Silver Wolf. Very few women, and most, if not all, in the past 25 years. One or two instances of a couple also.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

You probably need to find a copy of the National Meeting material; this past year was in San Diego. Suspect that the resolution stuff is not nearly as common as back in the earlier period.

From SCOUTING, May, 1928. When the Silver Buffalo Award began in 1926, there were 22 awards issued initially. These included all of the men we list as founders, with the first going to Baden Powell. Interestingly, the second is listed as being given to the "Unknown Scout" of the lost in London story. It was then decided to issue seven a year going forward, five to Scouting leaders and two to youth leaders outside of Scouting. In 1928, the seven awarded included, as number 30 overall, "The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier". This was followed with Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh. I am challenged to see if any other special awards have been made to "monuments in honor of individual(s)". Will have to see if I can find a list of all the recipients to date.

Thanks Shortridge; I did mean Pinchot, not the Chilean dictator. No doubt that going backpacking in small groups is the best method; but larger groups by vehicle can still be efficient and respect the environment with a bit of effort. My main point here was that from my readings, it is apparent that BSA was well out in front overall with their approach to the outdoors. In the teens they already were preaching forest management, even having a special forestry program on the east coast for a while. And many of the earliest adult leaders in the environmental/conservation movements were also very supportive of BSA.

In my continued perusal of older material, occasionally posted in history section, I am made aware of just how important conservation was to the program from its outset. Surely part of this had to do with Teddy Roosevelt, Seton,and Pinochet, among others. So, when we have people complaining about how bad Scouts are for the camp grounds and forests, I cannot understand how narrow minded and ill informed these people really are. That is not to say that we have a small group that does not follow rules and LNT ideals. But overall, BSA is one of the best large groups, maybe the best, in this arena. Thoughts?

A resolution of the Executive Board. Resolved, that the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America deplores the popular use of eagle feathers in the manufacture of war bonnets as tending top cause the extermination of our National emblem by plume hunters. Therefore, Scout Executives, Scoutmasters and Scouts are requested not to purchase the feathers of any wild birds, but in the manufacture of war bonnets and similar objects to use the feathers of domestic fowls, as suggested in BOYS' LIFE.

And how does this relate to National Forests?

Ditto to Pack. Please reconsider your idea.

Yep; cannot see ANY connection between this and Woodbadge. We all know where you stand. Your trying to relate it to everything does nothing but marginalize your other views. Forests are overused in our part of the country, with the most popular locations full during the peak camping months from late spring through late fall. We pretty much can camp where we want during the winter, though a warm spell is an issue because they often close the overflow areas of the larger camps. But, they also now have hosts, and the price keeps growing for those with basic facilities and hookups. More remote ones, often now are closed much of the year due to access issues and weather damage. Still, most are great places, and almost too popular.

From another portion of the Magazine; a segment of West's report. "It must be ever borne in mind that the basis of strength and power of the Boy Scout Movement will not be measured alone by the number of Scouts and Scout officials, the record of activity of the National Council, or the number Local Councils organized; these are but a means to an end. The value of the Scout Movement will be judged by the individual Boy Scout__ his conduct, appear- ance, and the way he puts into practice the Scout Oath and Law, and reveals that he is actually prepared to do things worthwhile because of the program of activities of the Boy Scouts of America." How might Mr. West rate our current organization?

"Old age wipes all material obstructions from our vision. Looking down from up there, one wonders why grown men will spend their time in pursuit of pleasure in place of happiness; why legislators sacrifice the welfare of the people for the sake of party lines; why statesmen do not see that the only thing worth working for is 'the welfare of their fellow men'; why all legislators cannot realize that the practical way to reform the world is by teaching the public the real meaning of American democracy and how to live according to the Boy Scout Oath and Law, according to common sense, according to God's law." MESSAGE FROM "UNCLE DAN" BEARD; SCOUTING MAGAZINE, January 1940

Shortridge; We pretty much have already started ignoring much of our infrastructure issues. Look at the numerous stories in the media about unsafe bridges and trestles, as well as the awful condition of most roads throughout the country. The really sad thing is that our "so called representatives" still do not understand that this need will generate jobs, both on the government level AND the in the public sector. Those jobs in turn of course will help improve the economy by increasing tax revenue and putting money into the local economies. To me, that is the first place the Federal monies approved in 2009 should have been used. But, whatever your views, it should be obvious that our elected representatives are not actually representing US. Recent polls, from a number of different slants indicate how low the congressional office holders approval has dropped. Even as bad as the president's rating is, they are almost 20% lower on average. This may be the first election, 2012, where we might see fringe parties possibly winning seats. When you are continuously given choices of "the lesser of two evils", eventually you might find yourself looking beyond those to other possibilities.

"Go camping and hiking alot." Most important, as we prepare for the ultimate collapse. At least Scouting, when played closely to the original program, will actually be again pertinent; they will "Be Prepared". So now, we have linked this whole discussion back to Scouting.

Basement; While they likely went to Philmont the second time in order for their son to attend the leadership there, there is nothing odd about going more than once to PTC. If you enjoy the Ranch, then doing various courses is simply fun for many of us. I have done five, plus two treks, though has been a long time since the last one. Keep thinking I will go back, but the right course and time frame has not presented itself. Very few places with the high camaraderie as it has.

A declaration on the front page of the magazine/paper. Perhaps this is an area to which we "SHOULD" revisit as an organization. "Volunteer Workers" WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America recognizes that its faithful volunteer workers, both in the national and local fields, are the strength and backbone of the Movement, and WHEREAS, we desire at this time to express our loyal appreciation and heartfelt thanks for the splendid service of our volunteer workers. WE, the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America, in the Eleventh Annual Meeting assembled, hereby resolve that such an expression of thanks and appreciation be hereby recorded as a part of the proceedings of the meeting and be published in the next issue of SCOUTING.

Kudu; What is written is not always the actual case. There are many camp grounds that have sites very close together and have limits on how many can be in them, especially those to which you can drive. But even pack ins often have limits on how many, and can be very close together. And remember, even though you may not agree with LNT, that is a factor in not overwhelming the trails and camping areas with too many bodies. Perhaps you need to come to California and actually visit camping areas. Now days, due to the lack of funds, many areas are simply closed. Then add on fire restrictions, and you can have very limited usage possibilities. Just saying.

Over the years as SM I have done 25 "official" mile swims at various camps throughout California. My last one was two years ago at Tahquitz when I was 65. During the preliminary quarter, I had my upper denture come loose and fall into my mouth, prompting me to swim to the edge and call the twenty something female director to please come and get them. She was a bit shocked I think. When I did the longer swim, I simply removed them ahead of time. Have done it in the ocean at Emerald Bay and Cherry Valley (had to swim part in open water at that time; was told they stay in the cove now); 6 times in Shaver Lake, always starting at 6AM when the water is warmer than the air; and in various pools or lake special swimming areas. Best time was somewhere around 37 minutes at Shaver when I was in my 30's; last time was an hour and 22 minutes. I do not stop or put feet down; it is a matter of principle. Have been to a couple camps that were qualifying swimmers for doing it incrementally; and I did point out to them they were bending the intent of the award. Yes, many swimmers in pools hang on, put feet down, and so on; but most of the time someone keeps them more or less moving. Had one older scout who did it completely with the elementary backstroke, as he could not do anything else. If he could have mastered swimming, he likely would have Eagled; but he was only first class, due to the swimming problems. Ironically, he became an Army officer and ranger, and now has just been listed for advancement to Lt. Colonel. Served in Bosnia, and just returning from a 3rd in Iraq, with 2 in Afghanistan. Had one 75 pound 11 year old do it at Shaver with no problem, having just finished lifeguard in the Pacific the week before camp. The next year, hardly any heavier, he got hypothermia half way through, scaring the heck out of me and the staffer helping. It was only first stage, as we responded to his complaining of being cold; but it was a lesson. Had one parent at Emerald Bay decide to do it with his son; his shorts kept sliding down, so he decided to take them off, much to his son's chagrin. He could not understand why that was perhaps a problem in this day and age; though he did put them on before actually getting out. It is true though that swimming the mile has been a major point of pride a number of times for a few boys who struggled with other things. Not sure if I will do any more, as my body is beginning to object to a lot of things. Still, may, you just never know.

"Scouting is outing"; without camps, fewer opportunities, especially in some areas. A well run camp pays dividends far beyond the apparent, often from attendees from many years before. In our part of the country, while we have many state and federal camps, they too often are in very poor condition, have become very expensive if they are popular, and you are crowded with people, dogs, noise, and too many times, booze and foul language. Not the place to camp, especially in prime seasons. While national places like Philmont, Sea Base, and Boundary Waters, and the soon to be Summit are great facilities that offer something unique in many respects, they are expensive and have long waiting lists. Local camps within a three hour or less drive are important. I feel national needs to play a part in the survival of small camps that cannot stand on their own due to low populations or income issues. They may be the only place for decent activities for cubs and younger scouts in the camping arena. But subsidizing should be tied to a well rounded program and actually learning if a traditional summer camp. ALL camps should be available for simply camping during non-peak seasons. Just some long simmering thoughts.

While the onus suffered by pubescent teens struggling with their sexuality is tragic, the BSA policy has to do with adults as leaders. The youth sexuality is rarely an issue, unless the boy himself somehow makes it so. Only then does it become a problem, as the majority of youth of that age are particularly concerned about being seen "differently". And the stigma comes from all directions of the youth culture with which the boy interacts, not just scouting. It is highly unlikely that many troops would seek out youth who may be questioning; it only when the obvious, or perceived position comes to the fore that it becomes problematic. At that time, you very well may have to deal with severe peer pressure both in the unit, and from without. Basically, it is "Catch 22" at that juncture. Don't forget that acceptance by peers can often cause those very peers to be perceived in a different light by the larger majority. It is pretty much no win then. These comments are from actual observations, and one major decision in the troop years back. Hopefully, we eventually will see the issues become less of a problem, and less of an onus for the small percentage suffering from these conflicting emotions. But, currently, the atmosphere in that age group is not conducive to easy solutions.

Wow!! Wish I were younger. Love this positive Scouting stuff.

As constantly suggested, local CO decision; it becomes a non-issue. But, it still is pretty petty from my perspective, as the only people being effected are the kids in the troop that need to find another CO and place to meet. Their meeting there hurts no one.

Once again, it would be time for the SM to do his job. I once gave a boy an ultimatum almost exactly like this. He chose to leave. The good thing was that he showed up clean and sober a few years later with a fiancee. I did not recognize him, but he did me. He told me who he was, then thanked me for doing what I did. So, you sometimes think you lose, then find out you didn't.