skeptic

Been there, done that; sort of. Maybe a good 2X4 and a count? Thanks.

"What's Become of Scouter Magazine". It is halfway or a bit more down the right side.

And from one of those old manuals, pre 1975 or so, put the honor of being elected back in it by having limitations on how many each year. When a large troop who had 25 webeloes join two years before has most eligible at once, and is able to "elect?" them ALL, it takes away most of the so called honor and prestige. Granted, they still have to go through the Ordeal, but that too has had much of its spirit removed by restrictions and the general climate of today. JMO

Oh, I also agree that we really need to start being a bit less confrontational about poor decisions and questionable skills, and more proactive in "learning from them". That might very well be something National should SERIOUSLY consider doing. It might very well pay off in spades.

Comment regarding the map is pertinent to this discussion as well. If the map was NOT a topo of some kind, then it is fairly useless for locating yourself. Without terrain being accurately discernible on the map, it is not a very good tool, even with the compass. Though, even an up to date FS map would be somewhat useful if you know "how" to do it. Of course, topo's also have issues, in that half the trails in use today are NOT on the topo maps; so you need to overlay with current trail info. While I am fairly confident in my orienteering skills, I have to admit that I need to go back an update myself in using GPS devices, and learning the newer grid systems on the updated topo's. Am still living in range and township; though most of our older topos of the area are still very usable.

They also could simply make the knots half the width; then you could twice as many in half the space. LOL

CA Scouter; Jumping up and down reminded me of 1971. I lived in Riverside then, and there was a Wisconsin couple from March AFB living upstairs across from me. Right after the shake, I got up (thought my ex was shaking me to get up) and opened the door to the walkway when I heard this screeching across the way. The wife was running down the stairs to the lower level where she shrieked to her husband that she was going back to Wisconsin "NOW". It was quite a scene, especially as I watched the little tsunami in the pool sloshing end to end. Think she got over it, but cannot remember for sure. Had another Midwestern waitress actually try and climb into a cupboard in the work area behind the counter when we had one in the 90's. I was having breakfast with my high adventure ASM when the light on long stems started swaying in sync after the jolt. Paul and I simply smiled and said, a quake; but she was in a total panic. She was really small, and almost managed to get in. Took her a half hour to calm down. We have a number of extinct (are they ever?)volcanoes nearby, and at least three steam vents I know of that are always hot. So, I suppose we could have a volcano explode unexpectedly, though is remote probability currently. But up at Mammoth, they have had a number of years of signs something is building. Would not be surprised to see a major quake or a volcano appear; and Shasta is possibly the next Mt. St. Helens. Personally, I still prefer our overall great weather and so on to always worrying about tornadoes, hurricanes, or floods, as well a coping with freezing weather regularly and the high heating and cooling costs, especially heating.

An article in the weekend paper talks of Network Advertising Initiative and its "opt out" program. You are able to go to the site and see who, of their members, has advertising cookies on your computer, then opt out if you like. Take a look; any help is good in that area. http://www.networkadvertising.org/managing/opt_out.asp#

For little rattles like those we simply smile and keep doing what we were doing. LOL Seriously; stay away from windows, especially big ones, and get under a doorway arch if possible. If you choose to exit the house, or are outside, stay away from anything that might have pieces fall off that could hit you. Generally, anything around 5 or under will do little or no damage; but in areas where they are not common, some damage might occur in the way of cracks of facade crumbling; or if at the epicenter, possibly collapse of older, less sturdy structures. Inside a car is almost always safe, unless something falls on you. Survivor of a half dozen truly big quakes.

Many of the larger universities and colleges have Alpha Phi Omega fraternities, which is a service group aimed at BSA and similar groups whose past members are attending the institutions. Of course they were also the forerunner of NESA. They have a web site, and were represented at the jamboree in 2010. As noted, there is really very little reason to NOT accept the young man's help, as long as you check his credentials and references properly. But that should be done with any adult app.

Time? When I have to remove them from my primary uniform, which is the only one on which I use them, it takes all of 2-3 minutes; and of course, the same to put them on again. Have yet to have any problem with them either sticking me, or falling off. Year pins, now they occasionally come off for some reason. Also have to remove name tag and OA ribbon. Guess I have too much time.

Like most programs, it depends on the leadership and troop environment. We try to discourage too many merit badges, especially the more difficult ones. Younger first or second years are encouraged to take just two or maybe three, as long as only one is harder, then work on advancement and partake of free time activities with a buddy or two. We also try to schedule a few troop activities, but allow simply "kicking back" time as much as possible. But you need to have the parents on board from the start. They need to "get" that summer camp is an opportunity for their son to earn some recognition and badges, yes, but more importantly it is an open air laboratory to learn and experience nature and being on their own. Still, we do also make every effort to get boys through what they start, if at all possible. Sometimes you simply cannot, either because it is too hard for the scout, or he just will not do the work. Then you may or may not pursue the partial later, depending on the scout and so on. We have on occasion skipped the mid week campfire, because kids were simply too overwhelmed and tired; though we did allow any wanting to go to do so, as long as we had a volunteer leader as well. Instead we allowed them to "kick it" in camp. Just an old guys opinion of course.

Can surely tell who has not been around forever. It is basically going back to the original way of doing it. There were no Cub specific knots for years, they were simply Scouter knots with a device. I have three devices, a scout and commissioner device on the training knot, and the scout device on the key. I never understood the reason for the Cubbing array anyway, as they were the same awards, just in a different area. There were no special knots for senior scout leaders; they wore the related device. Will help a bit with the clutter; but there are so many other new knots, that it will still often look like a full dress military officer at times. Right now, I am trying to decide if I should wear the West knot, as it was given in my name, rather than me giving the money. One of my elderly Scouter friends, who has only Scouting as his family, donated insurance money from his wife's death and put about 6 or 7 of his long time friends on the certificates. So, I guess I should put the knot on, just to respect his recognition. I had been given another one in honor of one of my past Eagles who was killed in an Air Force training accident years ago; but never felt like I should wear the knot. Just have the cert and so on in my memory box. Am always torn about wearing them, but have one shirt with them all, for special activities. Others have none or some.

They are called a bigot and get sued.

A comment in another thread and board regarding youth and adults feeling uncomfortable in a more public area made me think about my own experience as a youth. At that time, we did not have separate areas for adult men and youth in public changing areas or restrooms and so on. I can remember showering at the YMCA before I was 10, along with men and boys. In high school (we did not have JH gyms)we changed and showered in communal areas, though the coaches did have their own office area with shower. My brother and I have talked about this once or twice, and cannot remember being particularly traumatized by any of the standards, or lack of, of the times. Maybe we just adjusted, because that was what you did. While I understand much of the concerns in these discussions, I sometimes wonder if we are making things worse with some of our reactions that tend towards paranoia at times. The same goes for many of the institutional responses to various games, childhood interactions, and basic socialization of children and adolescents. We talk of not letting kids be kids, then program everything they do. We talk about kids not learning as well, yet often give them little opportunity to simply play imaginatively. How many here insist that every outing have x number of "skill" sessions? How often do you simply go camping, then let the kids just run around in the natural setting, monitoring for safety without intruding unless necessary. If you have not, try it. You might get a new perspective on things. Please, I do not think every precaution is over reaction. I do wonder though where we draw the line, and if we may be short changing our kids at times. Certainly we have some kids today that are afraid, literally, to do even simple things by themselves, and seem terrified they might make a mistake. Just some food for thought.

Am I just being left out, or did I do something right? I do not have any ads with banners or pics. Do have something with a link about cruises (which I have never taken nor looked for), and a couple of camping gear links.

Could not locate the original thread relating to climategate, so am tacking on here. Yes, I realize the attached link is from a group many find less than acceptable. But, the basic info is definitely of interest in this area. It will be interesting to see the follow ups on this particular study. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/30/richard-muller-global-warming_n_1066029.html?ncid=webmail12

"As Beavah points out, there really seems to be a lack of good mainstream scientific journalism." In reality, real journalism is almost extinct. It is really a shame that the best journalists appear to work outside of mainstream media. Whether it is due to standards, or lack of, or that "sound bite" writing is not real journalism, so the best writers simply go elsewhere. All you need to do is look at the atrocious spelling and grammar in any large newspaper to understand how far even basic standards have slipped. One of the reasons that a few blogs are so popular in some areas of interest. But of course, then we have other issues related to veracity and opinion and supporting material. Interesting how much of the divisiveness now so prominent can be at least partially connected to lack of basic education, such as reading and comprehension and basic math. Just an aside observation. Sorry if it is too far off thread.

Shortridge: I will accept the likelihood that "some" executives were more concerned about "ass covering" than what was important, and would suggest that you admit there are some attorneys that are simply out for finding the biggest paydays and could care less about much else.

As Eamonn indicates, there is much that is not black or white, since most of the info is still not in the light. So, how does it get examined? Should BSA today, put together a team of individuals, both from within and without the organization to cull through the files and determine which ones were not dealt with as they should have been? What might be discovered by bringing it all out? To me, that is what they should do, as I too do not feel that trying to keep it in the shadows serves any purpose. On the other hand, the material needs to be handled very carefully, so as to not destroy people with innuendo without real proof. Families involved would need to be willing to open their specific experiences, and if they choose to not do so, it should be kept private. Cases that may have indication of having been presented to authorities and turned away need to also be determined, as do cases where the victims or their responsible caretakers made the decision to not press the case. As already suggested by some, bring it to light, determine where egregiously poor decisions were made, and at what levels, then make every effort to continue to improve the current program and procedures to make any future occurrence of these types of things as unlikely as possible. And, if they do happen, immediately turn it over to authorities outside the program. What should not happen, in my opinion, is to have the information made available to reporters and lawyers with questionable ethics "carte blanc", or to publicize things without permission of the victims and their families. But the issue will not go away, nor will it get any better if National chooses to continue to stonewall it. It is entirely possible that they are already working on the best way to handle these files, and their fallout. It needs to be a rational and open approach, rather than a panicked or emotional one. Meantime, we still need to do our own part and work within the system to give the best parts of the program to our scouts, and not be part of the problem by burning effigies and making accusations that we cannot support. So, can we keep this discussion within bounds, and constructive, rather than hysterical and accusatory? And that goes for me too. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

Shortridge; please try reading what I asked, rather than suggest that I think the policies of the time were right.

While few here would likely say the methods in place 25+ years ago to deal with abuse accusations, verified, or only allegations, were correct, they were pretty much what "was done" in the majority of cases then. So, how do we deal with judgment of these issues more than a quarter century later? We can scream and holler all we want about how atrociously these cases were handled, but the fingers then need to be pointed at "society in general", as they were just as guilty of the how authorities and institutions reacted because they refused to support the few cases that actually came to public awareness. Even when someone was convicted, which was pretty rare, the charges were often reduced, and the penalties were slaps on the wrist. Certainly there were no public records shared nationwide by the government. The scouts files that are now the center of such controversy may very well have actually been ahead of their time. Do we have to go back and open every rape case that was swept under the carpet because of the attitudes of the time? Should we go back and dig up "all the dirt possible" on any and all public figures that were just ignored or "made go away"? People often refused to press charges, for who knows what reason. Sometimes it was ignorance, surely; but it was often the knowledge that actually getting someone prosecuted and found guilty was very difficult, and it opened the victims up to public embarrassment at least, and often ridicule or worse. So, can we really make completely fair judgments on things from the past, using standards of today? Should we, especially if all the individuals in position of decision at the time, such as family, institutional leaders, or legal authorities felt it should not be done? And, if we do, should it be taken to the extremes of possibly destroying good institutions and well meaning, though misguided (based on today's views)individuals; and enrich individuals with questionable ethics themselves? (This message has been edited by skeptic)(This message has been edited by skeptic)

PETA is helping a killer whale sue for its rights; any relation to all this?

"The boys DO work in a realm of face-to-face interaction if the unit is active. It is not only a source of fun and learning but also socialization so they can learn how to get along with others" Pack; Above is so true. Was on a day hike Saturday with 5 scouts, and while we were at the rock scrambling location (no ropes), you could see the interaction going on. Have one photo taken by someone else that shows them in a shady spot in animated discussion, completely engrossed and having a good time. I suspect they were talking about video games or such, but they were together and interacting. We let them wade in the river on the way back, even though it is almost November; because they wanted to. It is too low to be a real safety issue, but they had fun. They also spent almost 20 minutes skimming, or trying to skim rocks. Let them be kids, and stay out of their way if not unsafe. Do that and we go on forever, no matter what format the adults use to screw things up. Just hope I can stay mobile enough to still hike with them. Will be 68 next year in March, and already have back issues that effect backpacking; but day hikes seem to be fine, as long as I can take my time.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Pretty sure there are a number of camps in the west also; some have separate high adventure sessions in conjunction with regular summer camp options. Also a sea base in Newport Beach, and special HA activities at Emerald Bay. Still, always sad when camps are lost.