skeptic

Wilton; The situation you delineate happened in 2005. They learned a lesson, and they did as much as possible to try and make sure that did not happen again. Part of that was due to the security "required" for Bush's visit. That was one of the factors last year in NOT having the president visit directly. If you think the Bush security was severe; imagine what they would have needed with Obama, based on comments constantly seen on the internet, tv, and even on these boards. The level of "hate" by some is scary. They had water available everywhere they could in 2010, and they had piles of it at the arena as well. While walking to the arena show, I was offered bottles at least 3 times along the route. 2013 appears to be making the use of vehicles almost totally restricted. So, did they learn something? Time will tell. Are there a few individuals in the highest echelons that may be out of touch. Yes, there are. There are also a few volunteers in high positions of every level of the program who are out of touch, or feel somehow privileged. I ran into a number of "gold tabs" with really large egos and even bigger attitude, in my opinion anyway. Seldom is anything completely black or white.

"There isn't any reason they couldn't make the knots with the devices embroidered on them." While true, it would not serve the purpose then, as adding a device for each area is the point of the devices. Then they also would have to have more knots, as the embroidered device would differ on each one. Most people would not need to worry anyway, as few earn the comparative award for more than one area, and those that do mostly would wear only two devices, cubbing and scouting.

Eamonn; Always the voice of reason. Thanks.

Found this particularly interesting and applicable for those willing to look beyond their noses, so to speak. You need to read the whole piece to get the best idea as to what the author is speaking. But here are a few quotes I pulled out that I thought addressed the issue well and are food for "thought". "I no longer assume that machines can solve all of our problems for us. The task of thinking is still ours. When you are no longer engaged only in optimizing your productsand you let go of the technotopian viewyour world becomes larger, richer, more mysterious, more inviting; more human. What is the point of a comfortable living if you don't know what the humanities have taught us about living well? The thought leaders in our industry are not the ones who plodded dully, step by step, up the career ladder. The leaders are the ones who took chances and developed unique perspectives. Products must appeal to human beings, and a rigorously cultivated humanistic sensibility is a valued asset for this challenge. That is perhaps why a technology leader of the highest statusSteve Jobsrecently credited an appreciation for the liberal arts as key to his company's tremendous success with their various i-gadgets." Locally, we have a very small university (about 350), St. Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic university if it is not obvious that still teaches in the manner of the17th and 18th century. They have no majors, no texts per se, and study Latin and religion. All classes are based on the Socratic method of group discussion and interaction. Yet, the graduates tend to go on to very successful careers in many varied fields, based on the foundation of their studies there. They are so well received in the academic communities, that they are in the top 100 schools in many areas of comparison, even though they are tiny. This lends a certain amount of veracity to the discussion in this article. JMHO of course.

Jay K So, according to the current thought, not only were you guilty of hazing, but so was the guy with the oil and metal. Shame. (;-}

So Basement; is that it, or do you have a list of terrible experiences to share? That particular group would have been reported by me to their council when I got out, as they were not living to the standards of Scouting. Did you explain to them the facts of the situation, and they still were rude? Lot missing here. Perhaps you missed an opportunity to improve the leaders' skills, and set an example to the scouts.

I think the merit badge midway confusion comes from the statements that it will not all be in one place. Badges related to particular activities, such as shooting or pioneering, for example, will be in an area where those activities occur. So boating would likely be near the river access area, and so on. The badges without specific active activities will still be in a midway. At least that is the way I understand it. If I could be sure that I would be working with a merit badge, I would still enjoy attending. But last time I got put in an area that almost did me in, even though I had asked specifically for a number of historical related areas or merit badges. I was a bit disappointed at the poor prep for the new Scouting Heritage badge in 2010. I ended up helping for a bit, as most of the people manning it had little real background. Since I have been focused on that area for years, and have one of the larger book and paper ephemera collections in the West, I could have done far better I felt, and likely not been as exhausted either. Still, they did okay with the material with which they were furnished. Might still consider if I can get my weight under control.

Emerald Bay has some explaining to do, if pirates are no longer allowed.

Acco You do realize that BSA paid millions of dollars to the government each time they had the jamboree. They also built things that were kept by the government. But the biggest thing was that the Army got valuable training in dealing with large crowds and events, as well as many emergencies; training that would have been much harder to do without the scouts being present. The use of the site was never free.

Yep, some of my best assistants or adult helpers were recently aged out scouts; and a couple were not even Eagles. But, I do not see Engineer giving up his bias. Whatever the REAL reason for it is, it appears to be emotionally embedded. JMO of course.

KC9DDI; Now let's not be too rational here.

Let us remember ALL those who served in the military so that the rest of us can have our lives less disrupted. While this day began as a celebration of the end of WWI, it soon became more inclusive, eventually officially becoming a federal holiday to honor anyone who served in the various branches of the military and their peripherals. So thank you to all who fit this description, including those now gone. A moment of silence with the sound of Taps in our thoughts.

While we can make all kinds of dire or glorious predictions about 2013, we cannot really know how well the new direction will work. While I may sometimes be a bit polyanish (sp), it seems to me, having attended three, 1960-85-2010, as a senior scout, 1st ASM, and staff, it sounds as if they have actually listened to those actually participating. I personally would love to give it a try, but realize it is unlikely for me because of age and health concerns; though I might still visit if possible. Restricting visitors to part of the event makes very good sense, as they were a huge part of the overload at A.P.Hill. Making the overall footprint less, but putting more "real" scouting adventure into it seems a positive. And taking staff out of the scouts' areas is also logical, as much of the staff have jobs that require very early or late time frames, and their comings and goings tended to disturb many nearby units, as well as added to the congestion in many camp areas. On the other hand, we can hope that National will do a serious appraisal of what works and what does not, then work on improving going forward towards the World and future National events. I personally would like to still see some form of merit badge area, as that was a very popular area for youth to whom I spoke over the past 20 years; and I saw many really great displays and real interactions with experts going on. We also need to keep in mind that the location will also eventually be a true high adventure base with its own unique elements, as well as a training location along the lines of PTC. As far as cost goes, the actual jambo fee pretty much covers real expenses on site. Most of the amounts of which people complain are costs above the base fee for units participating. Our local council is determined to reduce the cost by a minimum of 20%. Reality is that transportation and fees for tours and connected lodging can inflate things considerably. On the other hand, much of the jambo experience is based on the trip to and from for a large majority of participants. Also, it appears that National has made efforts to reduce the costs to attendees by changing the needs of the units. They will not have to bring tents or much else, and there will be severe restrictions on troop equipment on site beyond what is furnished. Not having to ship all that stuff is very positive; I know, as that was a major headache for me in 85. Not sure how I feel about the gateways; that has always been a true reflection of jamborees, world or national. So, let us all take a deep breath and see what happens. But, those that insist that because National is involved in the change, it has to be a disaster, and that Jamboree will go the way of the dodo, maybe you can at least give the new ideas a chance.

Glad someone thinks similarly to me. Putting some of the restrictions back, along with a bit more mystery could not hurt, as I noted earlier in the thread. But, that is unlikely to occur as long as the adults in higher levels are in charge. My encounters with them at jamboree in 2010 were to say the least, not particularly positive. If there is a higher level "good old boys club" in the BSA, this appeared to be one. Just my personal view and experience.

Been there, done that; sort of. Maybe a good 2X4 and a count? Thanks.

"What's Become of Scouter Magazine". It is halfway or a bit more down the right side.

And from one of those old manuals, pre 1975 or so, put the honor of being elected back in it by having limitations on how many each year. When a large troop who had 25 webeloes join two years before has most eligible at once, and is able to "elect?" them ALL, it takes away most of the so called honor and prestige. Granted, they still have to go through the Ordeal, but that too has had much of its spirit removed by restrictions and the general climate of today. JMO

Oh, I also agree that we really need to start being a bit less confrontational about poor decisions and questionable skills, and more proactive in "learning from them". That might very well be something National should SERIOUSLY consider doing. It might very well pay off in spades.

Comment regarding the map is pertinent to this discussion as well. If the map was NOT a topo of some kind, then it is fairly useless for locating yourself. Without terrain being accurately discernible on the map, it is not a very good tool, even with the compass. Though, even an up to date FS map would be somewhat useful if you know "how" to do it. Of course, topo's also have issues, in that half the trails in use today are NOT on the topo maps; so you need to overlay with current trail info. While I am fairly confident in my orienteering skills, I have to admit that I need to go back an update myself in using GPS devices, and learning the newer grid systems on the updated topo's. Am still living in range and township; though most of our older topos of the area are still very usable.

They also could simply make the knots half the width; then you could twice as many in half the space. LOL

CA Scouter; Jumping up and down reminded me of 1971. I lived in Riverside then, and there was a Wisconsin couple from March AFB living upstairs across from me. Right after the shake, I got up (thought my ex was shaking me to get up) and opened the door to the walkway when I heard this screeching across the way. The wife was running down the stairs to the lower level where she shrieked to her husband that she was going back to Wisconsin "NOW". It was quite a scene, especially as I watched the little tsunami in the pool sloshing end to end. Think she got over it, but cannot remember for sure. Had another Midwestern waitress actually try and climb into a cupboard in the work area behind the counter when we had one in the 90's. I was having breakfast with my high adventure ASM when the light on long stems started swaying in sync after the jolt. Paul and I simply smiled and said, a quake; but she was in a total panic. She was really small, and almost managed to get in. Took her a half hour to calm down. We have a number of extinct (are they ever?)volcanoes nearby, and at least three steam vents I know of that are always hot. So, I suppose we could have a volcano explode unexpectedly, though is remote probability currently. But up at Mammoth, they have had a number of years of signs something is building. Would not be surprised to see a major quake or a volcano appear; and Shasta is possibly the next Mt. St. Helens. Personally, I still prefer our overall great weather and so on to always worrying about tornadoes, hurricanes, or floods, as well a coping with freezing weather regularly and the high heating and cooling costs, especially heating.

An article in the weekend paper talks of Network Advertising Initiative and its "opt out" program. You are able to go to the site and see who, of their members, has advertising cookies on your computer, then opt out if you like. Take a look; any help is good in that area. http://www.networkadvertising.org/managing/opt_out.asp#

For little rattles like those we simply smile and keep doing what we were doing. LOL Seriously; stay away from windows, especially big ones, and get under a doorway arch if possible. If you choose to exit the house, or are outside, stay away from anything that might have pieces fall off that could hit you. Generally, anything around 5 or under will do little or no damage; but in areas where they are not common, some damage might occur in the way of cracks of facade crumbling; or if at the epicenter, possibly collapse of older, less sturdy structures. Inside a car is almost always safe, unless something falls on you. Survivor of a half dozen truly big quakes.

Many of the larger universities and colleges have Alpha Phi Omega fraternities, which is a service group aimed at BSA and similar groups whose past members are attending the institutions. Of course they were also the forerunner of NESA. They have a web site, and were represented at the jamboree in 2010. As noted, there is really very little reason to NOT accept the young man's help, as long as you check his credentials and references properly. But that should be done with any adult app.

Time? When I have to remove them from my primary uniform, which is the only one on which I use them, it takes all of 2-3 minutes; and of course, the same to put them on again. Have yet to have any problem with them either sticking me, or falling off. Year pins, now they occasionally come off for some reason. Also have to remove name tag and OA ribbon. Guess I have too much time.