skeptic

Our expectation is that the candidate will appear as a scout for the board, as the board is for a scout award. However, if there are extenuating circumstances, an adult uniform, then a suit or sport coat would be appropriate. Most still wear the youth uniform, as they are still in school, or just out.

Beavah; the possibly violated statute(s) relate to copyright and BSA's right to the items and their control. We "are not talking about old insignia here", rather current, restricted items somehow being obtained without the required paperwork being files. Big difference. And I am not a Francis, and you lost me on that inference. Must have something to do with someone that is too concerned about what some consider minor issues or things. " Is there a rule against selling them?" Actually there IS a rule about selling unauthorized items; that is why they have restrictive paperwork. "I guess I don't see the problem." And here lies the rub, so to speak. Too many people simply do not view pushing the bounds of honesty as important, as long as it does not hurt them personally in some manner. The Oath and Law are part of an "Honor Code". But, as noted earlier, "honor" is a personal thing. And, the seller in this actually brags about being an Eagle Scout. Now whether or not he is cannot be determined. But, "if" he is, then, in my personal opinion he is a very poor example. Maybe part of it is that he apparently lives within my area, and has tried to obtain things through our office. When not allowed to, in quantity (which is really the point, since it is to sell for HIS profit, not the BSA), he was rude to the staff. Whatever. Hopefully someone at National Supply will finally realize they have a problem somewhere, in that a few individuals seem able to obtain these types of things in a less than upfront manner. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

In order to purchase the patch, you are supposed to have required paperwork. It is not intended as a replacement patch for past Eagles, but one recognizing earning the award in the centennial year. NO ONE should be legitimately buying a quantity of the item without such documentation, which is not likely for the amount being offered. Surely, most Scouters should see the violation of Scout Law, not only by the seller on eBay, but whomever is bending rules somewhere (maybe getting a portion of profit)to allow the sale in the first place. As far as actual legal issues, that is, state or federal laws of some type, a legal expert would have to review the specifics. But, if the items are obtained by subterfuge or not following established procedures for the purchase, and since it is a copyrighted item I believe, there could be actual legal implications. Whatever, obviously, there are individuals who feel stretching the Scout Law, and possibly other statutes is okay, as long as they are able to find a way around the safe guards. This individual tried two years ago to purchase large quantities of the centennial patches, cub and scout, as well as a few other "restricted" items from our local shop, as he lives in our council; but the store followed the "supposed" rules and refused to sell them. So, after making surly comments, he went elsewhere; and obviously has been able to supply himself. Maybe the WLAC National shop has the same lax controls noted by another poster. Maybe some are right, that National shops, and indirectly National, does not care as long as they get their money. Maybe the whole thing is too expensive to pursue legally, so they just let it slide, though one would think if the verification process was not followed, as intended, at least someone would lose a job. Just find it really disappointing that there are some who cannot see the hypocrisy in this. Yes, I too see hypocrisy in some of the larger National stances, and wish they would go to complete local control at the CO level. But that is not the same issue. Guess it is like the person that sees taking wrong change, in their favor, as okay, since it is the large corporate entity that loses in most cases (though shortages can cause loss of employment if common); while others of us always correct the situation, no matter what the amount. The world is becoming more and more grey in many areas of right and wrong. Just another old man complaining about the erosion of society and living in another era I guess. Honor is in the mind of the individual; some have higher expectations.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

This individual is again offering restricted items, specifically the Centennial Eagle patch, for sale at obscene profits. Two questions arise again: how does he obtain so many? And why will BSA or eBay not do something about it? To me it is simply wrong, especially from an individual who trumpets his being an Eagle. I realize there are some who apparently see nothing wrong with this; but I truly do not see how it is not illegal, since ranks require paperwork. He also is still offering a few other items from the actual Centennial which were supposedly restricted as well. http://stores.ebay.com/Discovering-New-Deals?_rdc=1 There is at least one other seller, but he is not listing quantities available.

Just wonder what your expectation was for what came from National? As far as I know, the local troop, or family has always had to purchase the actual award and related paraphernalia. I did not even get a "large" certificate in 1959, only a card and letter. Of course, then the award was only the medal and patch; no additional pins and so on. It was sterling back then though; now the basic one is some kind of cast metal. If you want to spring for the sterling, it still is available, but considerably more costly.

http://m3foto.tumblr.com/post/18595233101/santorum-rally-spokane-valley-washington-2012 Not sure allowing Scout color guards at political functions is acceptable to BSA reg's, as they are not supposed to publicly support political groups. It is a grey area I guess if they "only" do the flags, and they do it for both sides. Still, a bit questionable it seems to me. The obvious boredom may not be the best publicity for the gathering either.

"If you're going to argue intellectual capacity........The other three are leaps and bounds ahead of Obama, especially when it comes to adherence to a personal philosophy." This statement is pretty questionable, especially in respect to the first part of it. Other than simply not liking President Obama, am not sure on what you base it. Guess it depends on your definition of "intellectual capacity". They are all double talk experts, but that does not make them more or less intelligent. Ron Paul is an actual doctor, so his educational background is deep, especially in that area; but some of his statements are almost Utopian it seems. While it would be wonderful to exist in a vacuum of isolationism, that is not a realistic expectation in today's world. The candidates most fitting LisaBob's comment are now gone from the Republican circus. It is telling that the best candidate they had, in my opinion, was Huntsman; but he was too centrist for the current campaign apparently.

When we ran the annual drives, everyone was "encouraged" to donate, but not necessarily pledge. Got a lot of $1 donations. I know at least once or twice, in the last store in which I worked, the store manager expected his underling managers to kick in a donation for any of their employees that did not do so themselves. I ran the drive once, and it we had a dozen or so that refused to participate, for whatever reason. Yet, somehow, we ended up with 100%, due to the behind the scene directive. The real irony was that when less pressure was used, we had better results, even if fewer donated. I made sure that year that everyone "understood" directed donations, and that is how I was able to get quite a few holdouts to contribute.

Still curious as to the thoughts on our SE report at our annual meeting which I noted yesterday. Has anyone else seen such a public exposure of the latest policies? Is it an indicator of a change in direction?

My question would be how can I be shown "proof" that my designation "actually" went to the specified group? Getting a straight answer from them is like looking for the proverbial needle. But, I am retired and do not need to be concerned directly anymore.

We had our annual meeting gathering last night, and when the SE gave his report/speech, he spent a lot of time on this subject, indirectly. Basically, he noted the multi-level youth protection safe guards, and specifically mentioned the file as one of the barriers. While I have no idea if this came from National, it would seem that a SE would not publicly make these comments to a large group of scouters without some type of higher up approval. The fact that we are right next door to Santa Barbara adds to the weight of these statements. Maybe this is a new front on this issue by National; put it out there as our policy, one that was implemented to keep these people out and was way ahead of the time. Would have to disagree that shredding the files would be a good choice, especially now. That just adds fuel to the fire to those that will find issues. Basement, while I too would "think" that in this case the plaintiff is on very soft ground, I would not have predicted the outcome in Oregon. The illogic in many jury decisions, as well as what often appears judicial bias in some judges, constantly amazes me.

"Most of all, perhaps, we need intimate knowledge of the past. Not that the past has any magic about it, but because we cannot study the future, and yet need something to set against the present, to remind us that the basic assumptions have been quite different in different periods and that much which seems certain to the uneducated is merely temporary fashion. A man who has lived in many places is not likely to be deceived by the local errors of his native village; the scholar has lived in many times and is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that pours from the press and the microphone of his own age." (Learning in Wartime, 1939; C.S.Lewis)

Come on folks; if you want an alternative, it is there, even if you may have to go to more than one group. If you are that disenchanted, then that may simply be your best solution. It is pretty obvious that a few are not content within the BSA systems, and keep complaining and knocking it. Work within it, find personal and local solutions, or go somewhere else. As I have stated previously, if you are so unhappy with BSA that you can find little positive to say here, then I am concerned as to how you come across to those with whom you work. Scouting, within the BSA organization or elsewhere is still a choice. My experience has shown that most people that "constantly" have mostly negative things to say about something in which they participate, carry a similar attitude to other associations. Dwelling on the negatives constantly is not conducive to a happy involvement and likely not a particularly happy life. JMHO

While this can be a problem, it should usually be a family issue, and theirs with which to deal. The more we make it an issue, the more likely it is to be used by rebellious teens or preteens as a dare, or to push the limits. In an overwhelming amount of cases, it certainly should not become a felony or reason to ruin lives forever due to stupid decisions. Sometimes it simply amazes me how often someone in our society can build all these mountains from mole hills, so to speak. If we do not over react, and treat each case as needed, on the family level if at all possible, the less of a problem it will be overall. That applies to an myriad of poor choices by adolescents and young adults. Just my opinion of course.

Another valuable resource are the old Boy's Life Reprints that began in the late 40's and continued until the late 60's in various printings. Also, just the old Boy's Life Magazines themselves. A lot of material that covers details of various skills is now easily available on line and can be copied and printed selectively. And there are now more and more dvd's being made that cover much of the material. There is NO reason that leaders need to ONLY use BSA materials for their teaching. We are blessed with an abundance of older materials, including books and so on; but I am continually impressed by the NON BSA material that I find in the old files. Instead of moaning about this, just go out and get what you need, then put it in their hands and have them do it. Reality is that no matter how well a manual is written, or how deep the material may be, it still must be LEARNED BY DOING. Meanwhile, share stuff as you can, and develop your own ways to pass the skills along, ways that work for you. Ultimately, if you are the adult leader, then you need to take the reins of training and pass the info on. EDGE, as noted, is basically doing just that. You can beat this all to death, but the material is there for the taking. Just use the resources you have, and dig for more if you feel it is needed.

Engineer; They sort of just pushed them out, either by violence, or some other process. Not a lot to go on back then, except that one supplanted the other. But, based on the differences in anthropological materials, it is pretty obvious that it was most likely a power grab, or isolation from livable territory. Of course, they do continue to discover more and more, though very slowly.

OGE; Interesting list; has significant historical value. The number of local councils in early days, prior to 1930 or so, is significant. That they appear to have merged, often a number of times, each time becoming larger challenges the viability of small councils and truly local control. It continues to be an issue from what I see, especially where the councils are "so" large that some members likely rarely see their professionals, and have to do everything by mail or computer. Thanks.

I will throw in on this game. Homo Sapiens versus Homoerectus and Neanderthals.

Le Castor; sounds familiar. Thanks.

Please, those that find the need to be insulting or bait others; stop! Try to remember the Scout Oath and Law. Thanks.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

In some respects, though it was unsuccessful, the Civil War fits the criterion. We also have had numerous mini revolutions within cities and regions; for example, Watts. Between these and the wacko's we have had our share.

Once the project is considered complete by the recipient, the EBOR rep responsible for project reviews should also review it to be sure it meets the standard expected. If it does not, then he or she should discuss it with the candidate, and NOT sign for final approval. It should not pass to the actual Eagle board to decline the project at that point, unless there is a major issue discovered or dishonesty. Follow the procedures for approval to start, and make sure that reviews are actual reviews, and not just sign the line. Those putting their signatures on these project papers need to take their approvals seriously. Half the problems that occasionally occur are because the ADULTS do not understand their roles, or they are too afraid to step on someone's toes. If you take the responsibility, then do it right.

A lot of kids now actually will wear the zip off pants to school, and have little concern about them, as they are very similar to other popular styles. I so far have had pretty good luck with mine, though being old and ill shaped, they may not look as sharp as I would like. Of course,they still do sell the non cargo style; and if I knew I would not lose the weight I have now (which I do hope to reduce)I might buy a pair for formal occasions like council dinners and courts of honor held in formal manner. I still have a pair of the older pants that could be creased if I wished, but they are too snug, so I do not wear them anymore. The zip offs are okay, and far more comfortable. Consider though that military has two versions; one for work, the fatigues, and one for dress. I had fatigues in the Air Force which were worn most of the time, but then was required to travel in dress uniform. On the rare occasion there was a formal ceremony, we also wore them, which included the tight fitting jacket with the metal buttons, along with wool or lighter weight blue pants. We also had a summer dress uniform which was kind of tan, but we could not wear that for extremely formal affairs, though we could travel in it between about April to October. I ask scouts to travel in the official shirt, but do not make them wear the pants. They are encouraged to have them, but we are not official except waist up. In vehicles they can be in t's, but if we stop to eat or something, they still need to put on their shirts; but necker's are not needed. Most summer camps ask you to dress completely for dinner flags, and some also for breakfast; and some troops ignore the requests, while others wear full uniform to everything. I saw one troop with a makeshift closet; every scout had two complete uniform shirts, and they hung them up while in camp, but had to wear them if not doing activities and they left. Still, I too have seen some lesser priced pants that could easily pass for scout pants, due to the color. The shirt is a different issue. But, technically, any uniform shirt is allowed, as long as it is worn correctly. My older 70's style shirt I wear for RT staff does not look quite as good with the cargo's as it did with the older style pants. But it works. Ultimately, we simply do the best we can. We have a uniform closet, but currently have hardly any choice in sizes. Either they are too small or too large at the moment. Some of the boys like the old khaki shorts for some reason, and I had one boy that wore the old 50' shirt and the red bordered flap pants (til he outgrew them). We have a number of those in the closet. If I could get enough to fit them all, I would love to have the collarless shirt for camp.

Does it even matter if the board was done and he was awarded the rank? We probably all know Eagles that are borderline at best, and some we probably would not personally have passed with the knowledge of them we have. But it is apparently a done deal. Better to just take a deep breath and try to make others scouts who have doubts understand that each person needs to do what is right within themselves; and begrudging someone something is not a good way to be, even if you have good reason. Just my opinion of course.

See below for recently posted link. http://scoutingmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/2011rtn.pdf