skeptic

Eagle92; I understand the current requirement, though my understanding is that any council SE can, if he chooses waive a particular element in special circumstances. But, my point is that for adults with families and limited vacation have family priorities which may take their longer term time and making it hard for them to work in the resident camp. Meanwhile, they spend almost every month out for one to three nights, do the training, teach skills for camping and hiking, and so on, but they are not allowed to be nominated unless they are willing to choose the troop over their family. That can easily be fixed with alternate requirements which include what I just described. For example: use the current in place requirment; or have 25-30 (you choose a reasonable number)of overnights with the troop as a leader, a tenure of say at least two or three years, and complete certain training, including specific outdoor training and first aide. My point is that there are adults nominated and approved that barely have those 15 days and nights, including the long term, and who have only the minimal training. Their contributions are far less than someone with two or three years of regular monthly camping; and their skills are often inferior and their repertoire with the scouts less inclusive. If anything, if the alternate was installed as an option, those that were nominated under it would be, most likely, better OA members. JMHO of course.

If an adult is active in supporting the outdoor program in his own unit, then he certainly deserves to be considered once he has met the requirements. The adults with whom I have occasional issue are ones that somehow get nominated from outside the unit, and who basically do nothing to truly encourage the camping of units. Fortunately, there are fewer now a days it seems in our lodge, though still some. Still wish National would consider alternate requirements for unit level scouters who have spent years doing the 2 and 3 day campouts, but use their limited vacation days for family, so never do the long term. Especially if they have made the effort to get advanced outdoor training. Have had a couple that were deemed ineligible because of no summer camp, yet had spent in excess of 25-30 nights out with the troop over a few years, and did High Adventure training, Trail Boss, and first aid, including wilderness level. One finally was able to go to summer camp; but his son was pushing 17 by then. We had nominated his dad the year before, including an explanation of his qualifications, but our local SE refused to waive the summer camp part. Really was disappointing, as he had hoped to go through an Ordeal with his son. But, when he did do it, his son was there getting Brotherhood. But, as one of the gold tabs informed me at jambo 2010; "No way will they ever consider having an optional adult requirement. If they cannot go to summer camp; tough luck." Or words to that effect.

OGE; Do I sense a smidgen of sarcasm?

http://scoutingmagazine.org/2011/12/from-the-chief-get-our-scouts-outside/

No where do I see any authorization for throwing out a completed and approved project that is turned in as part of the Eagle board prep. Once it is signed off by the required individuals, then it is done. Now, discussion of the project might warrant some serious questions and clarifications. We once had to have the candidate fix paperwork relating to hour compilation so to make it clear that he used more than his sister, mother, and father in completing the project. He had not made his work force clear, nor how many hours they actually contributed. We rescheduled his board and he had reworked the part needed to reflect accuracy and not likely be an issue at National somehow. But, this was done before actually sitting the candidate for the face to face. Review of the paperwork by the board prior to the interview, led to the decision. The scout and his parents understood completely the concerns, and it concluded a couple weeks later successfully. We all learned something from it actually, I think. As a SM, I was reminded that I need to review the final paperwork completely, so as to hopefully eliminate a problem. And the individual that vets the paperwork initially, also realized he had missed this when reviewing initially, and made a note in his checklist to not have that happen again. But, the new forms are far better than those prior to this. And the ability to simply say "see attached" is still there.

Friday night and Saturday morning, February 10-11, 2012. Same location; Oxnard Elks Lodge, 801 South A Street, Oxnard, Ca.

I have had a modicum of success with taking garlic tablets. While now it is also a supplement for generic health, I began using it years ago for camping. Take a few days ahead of time daily, then take it at least once a day at camp, twice if really buggy. Since doing this, have had far less issue with most insects. Horse flies do not care, and no see-ums still swarm, but appear to not like me when they land. Reality is that if you camp, bugs are part of the coping process. I saw one guy with one of those hat fans, and he did not have many bugs around his head; do not know about other exposed areas. Of course, as noted, netting and protective clothing is often half the battle.

Happy Boxing Day

Thanks Bart, interesting discussion of the explanation. Still, another fun thing to try and explain old traditions. Realistically, most of the old songs and so on are difficult to really determine origin. Silent Night does appear to have truth to its story. Surely there are a few others. Merry Christmas or whatever you prefer.

Passing along a piece of possible history related to traditions; whether it is accurate or not, I do not know. This answers the old question regarding the meaning of the 12 days of Chrismas: I did not write it, but appreciate the lesson. From 1558 until 1829, Roman Catholics in England were not permitted to practice their faith openly. Someone during that era wrote this carol as a catechism song for young Catholics. It has two levels of meaning: the surface meaning plus a hidden meaning known only to members of their church. Each Element in the carol has a code word for a religious reality which the children could remember. -The partridge in a pear tree was Jesus Christ. -Two turtle doves were the Old and New Testaments. -Three French hens stood for faith, hope and love. -The four calling birds were the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. -The five golden rings recalled the Torah or Law, the first five books of the Old Testament. -The six geese a-laying stood for the six days of creation. -Seven swans a-swimming represented the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit--Prophesy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Contribution, Leadership, and Mercy. -The eight maids a-milking were the eight beatitudes. -Nine ladies dancing were the nine fruits of the Holy Spirit--Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self Control. -The ten lords a-leaping were the ten commandments. -The eleven pipers piping stood for the eleven faithful disciples. -The twelve drummers drumming symbolized the twelve points of belief in the Apostles' Creed. So there is your history for today. This knowledge was shared with me and I found it interesting and enlightening and now I know how that strange song became a Christmas Carol...so pass it on if you wish.' Merry (Twelve Days of) Christmas Everyone

Years ago, I was honored at Chawanakee with selection for their "Pioneer Hike". It is sort of similar to some OA traditions, and related to their camp tribe, as well. Anyway, one of the things asked of the honorees was to write their thoughts in a log book after the overnight. Following is what I wrote; and it seems to kind of fit here. Pioneer Hike (8-04-83) Reflecting on the scouting way, while set alone within the wood; I saw the boy that once was me who sought to grow, be understood. But now its someone else's son whose youthful zeal rings through the trees, who looks to Me to understand, to see the way He sees. Thus, the cycle has come around, the scouting boy became a man; and what he learned within his youth, he returns, the best he can. Camp Chawanakee, B.S.A. Shaver Lake, Calif. 8-5-83

Kudu; From what I have read in the historical material I have, and also can discern to some extent from old time scouters' stories, and even many photos from the early days, backpacking was not a particularly normal thing. They used trek carts and wagons, as well as pack horses or mules, and carried minimal personal gear in rucksack type gear. Not to say they did none at all, but the other types were far more common. Of course day hikes were a huge part of the program. Often leaders would cart the main gear to a site, and the scouts would then hike to meet them. I suspect that many scouts of that period would be really surprise how much gear is now backpacked by the scouts themselves, without wheels or four legged friends. Of course, the gear is no where comparable, so it is not apples to apples. Summer camps were far different then too. Most were individuals going, rather than troops; occasionally a patrol. Most were at least 10 days to 3 weeks. They did have their version of group cooking; most camps had a regular cook that fed the scouts and staff from a kitchen of some kind; often a tent and outdoor stove, but eventually camps had real cook houses. Halls were not overly common, but large eating areas were, under canvas of some kind. Tents were often very large, holding more than the two common today. While your desire to see BSA go back to what you see as its best years has many positive points; you really should consider that even then, they were always evolving. Many of the serious outdoor troops do things today that scouts then would never have imagined; and they do them more safely, and with far superior equipment. And I have seen a lot of very successfully "boy led" units over the years, with good patrols which can, and sometimes do function separately. Still, that element really does need a lot of strengthening, I would agree; especially in those units that are pretty much assembly lines led by adults. Ironically, the two largest troops in our council, with the best patrols, also turn out large quantities of Eagles. Having sat on many of their boards, seen them at COR's, and also counseled them at times, I can assure you that their skills are pretty good overall.

Am with John in K.C. on this too; bring on the POX. Also bring back the Clinton structure, including actually under budget.

Scoutmaster, or SM has a secondary meaning, "silent member". This was near the end of a page long discussion of meeting ideas and concepts. Amazing how simple it can be.

National Council is trying to take "outing" out of Scouting. BSA hates atheists, agnostics, and Gays. Anyone should be able to join BSA, even if they do not want to work within its rules and traditions. Boy Scouts are all "sissies" and other negative labels indicating weak and lame.

Here is the link to where the report was found. I was not really aware of this particular part of the National site, and find it pretty interesting. Take a look; it is surprisingly helpful in some areas, and actually appears to try and address some things brought by we "trench peons". At least a step in the right direction it seems to me. http://scout-wire.org/2011/12/

Thanks Moose' for your expansion and clarification. Well done. Point of course is that ultimately, it comes back to our own personal convictions and thought process.

Merlyn; You ARE NOT a Scouter, so whatever you do or do not believe makes no difference in this context. You have a complete right to your "non-belief". It just has no place within the Scouting program. Your problem, and many others', is that somehow God, and god have become confused. A God is a specific entity in which someone believes, something greater than self, normally a spiritual idea with certain higher power perhaps, or not; while gods are generic. But, there is really no point in pointing this out to some, as you will continue to argue that you are right, and everyone else is wrong if they disagree. So do so, that also is your right. Just please quit trying to interpret Scouting as something you truly understand or in which you and your opinion have standing. Scouting without God, of some personal decision, would not BE Scouting. JMHO of course.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Please do not forget that in the Scouting context, none of this is connected, except as personal beliefs of a particular scouter. ALL religious ideas are acceptable, as long as they admit something greater than ourselves; and that direction is determined at the family and personal levels. So, the Bible is only one of the many possible sacred texts that may or may not apply to this discussion. I truly do not get how so many continue to not fully understand this very important aspect of Scouting. Yes, a unit sponsored by a specific church or other religious institution may have special requirements for their members; but the members can still choose to accept or not. They may decide to go elsewhere if they feel uncomfortable with their unit; but the idea of God, in the broad, more ephemeral definition, is a personal decision, period. And, if one is not able to admit some form of personal belief beyond self, then he should look outside of the Scouting program. It is a choice.

Yeah Beavah!

drmbear; If you read B.P.'s writings, they are full of religious references and belief in a higher power. He too felt that Scouting needed to have a foundation built on a spiritual base. But he also recognized that its content would and should be dictated by the family and the scout themselves. No where did he ever indicate a complete separation of spiritual beliefs from the program. If you want Scouting, as it was created, then it MUST have that personal spiritual connection. Now, the other element should, IMO, be a local unit decision.

Moderators; please consider moving this to its appropriate forum. It really should be in the Politics and Issues.

"Does Scouting give any educational guidance in abuse issues to either the Scouts or the Parents?" Not sure how anyone could have been on these forums for more than a year, and who supposedly is involved in the program, could even ask this question.

Two factors related to this that I perceive are that the most common ages for leaders that are also parents is between 30 and 50 or so. As kids, they were in the downside of the failed experiments of the 70's, plus the backlash against anything remotely smelling of military connection. So, many did not receive the best scouting programs, or suffered from the stigma, so to speak, if they were scouts. Many opted simply to not be involved, or their parents chose to not allow them to do so. Of course, today, there appears to be a shadow of the "parenting overload" showing up. Many of the youngest potential leaders not only were not scouts, but were over protected to the point of developing a fear of failure and the outdoors. And those that were scouts, often did not learn the depth of skills that were more common pre 1965 or so. That being said, every leader's potential is only reached should it be important to her or him, and they care enough to learn so they can teach. JMHO

Fred8033; The way things are in our local schools now, shop classes are almost gone. So, maybe these kind of badges could be more popular again. Learning a trade could be very useful, as we have far too few in the basic ones now. And, lets be truthful; they make good incomes if they are just able to do it; and if they are really good, they can almost name their price in some fields.