skeptic

Okay, now that I have had an opportunity to peruse the book, it is time to comment. While certainly a broad coverage of the huge variation of material, books, and so on, it does not seem to have had a lot of serious thought put into it regarding photos and so on. I find it difficult to understand why there is NO mention of SCOUTING MAGAZINE for instance. A number of pages are dedicated to gum cards and related items, but barely anything to the Service Library with their hugely colorful and art deco like covers. They mention EBL, yet do not show any of the actual covers or jackets; there were three types and myriad dj designs. Why do they not show a sample of the earliest meritbadge books? Where is the connection between scouting and advertising? The use of the scouting images in the first decades for ads was common, and some of the ads are dramatic. The stamp section is very limited, and does not draw on the best examples, in my opinion. Of course, we have already discussed making GBB a footnote at best. Likely are many other areas that could have been better represented, such as music or belt buckles, of whatever. So, while interesting, and has some great photos; I rate it mediocre at best. Of course, maybe if I had not collected for so long I might think differently.

In regard to Scout Stuff, the book just out. Got it with an Amazon gift cert, and went through it a bit. There may be a photo of Green Bar Bill in the section on Woodbadge at Schiff. They have a photo of the first course, and I believe the scouter leaning over the fire is Bill. But, not certain. Maybe another of you with the book can take a look.

If at all possible, we get the boys to strike tents and lay out to dry while breakfast prep is going on. Of course, it is always a challenge to get them to do it, especially if you are trying to leave it in the junior leaders' hands. With the common use of domes, or similar tents, you can empty them and just turn them upside down without taking the poles out. This works pretty well if you have sun. And, leaving too early really defeats the intent of the weekend anyway. We usually plan on afternoon arrival home, time dependent on how far we are out.

Engineer; over time the cost per participant decreases, finally reaching a pretty much break even, though maintenance costs would extend it. How long does it take a major tourist park to recoup their costs? This is a good thing, especially with our continuing struggles with PC issues. But it also gives east coast people another great high adventure outlet, as well as re-institutes a training location in that part of the country.

Okay, so I DID sign up, just not using my normal id. Again, I cannot find anything remotely like the $5.99. It really is not that important; but at times, it seems posters just seem to want to find anything possible to gripe about in regard to National. As pointed out by others, it is $12 a year through the troop. Cover price is $3.95, and yearly outside subscription is $24. The subscription shown on this site is $23.99, a savings of one cent from the $24. Again, maybe I simply cannot read, or see what is being referred to. The only way I got $5.99 was to divide the price I found by 3. But it is a one year subscription, not a three. Whatever; $12 is a really great price for the mag, especially in today's magazine market. And it is also available on-line, including much more. I give my old ones to one of the schools in which I sub, so they get used until they fall apart.

Not sure what you are talking about. I looked at the link, and it is listed for $23.99, a supposed savings of $12.01 off a year's subscription. Am I missing something?

Rolling on a barrel was one of the early drowning recommendations.

Yes, I add my thanks to Terry too. Have watched a number of boards come and go, and this one works pretty well for the most part. And have gotten some good info on occasion, and a lot of entertainment.

Eagle92; I understand the current requirement, though my understanding is that any council SE can, if he chooses waive a particular element in special circumstances. But, my point is that for adults with families and limited vacation have family priorities which may take their longer term time and making it hard for them to work in the resident camp. Meanwhile, they spend almost every month out for one to three nights, do the training, teach skills for camping and hiking, and so on, but they are not allowed to be nominated unless they are willing to choose the troop over their family. That can easily be fixed with alternate requirements which include what I just described. For example: use the current in place requirment; or have 25-30 (you choose a reasonable number)of overnights with the troop as a leader, a tenure of say at least two or three years, and complete certain training, including specific outdoor training and first aide. My point is that there are adults nominated and approved that barely have those 15 days and nights, including the long term, and who have only the minimal training. Their contributions are far less than someone with two or three years of regular monthly camping; and their skills are often inferior and their repertoire with the scouts less inclusive. If anything, if the alternate was installed as an option, those that were nominated under it would be, most likely, better OA members. JMHO of course.

If an adult is active in supporting the outdoor program in his own unit, then he certainly deserves to be considered once he has met the requirements. The adults with whom I have occasional issue are ones that somehow get nominated from outside the unit, and who basically do nothing to truly encourage the camping of units. Fortunately, there are fewer now a days it seems in our lodge, though still some. Still wish National would consider alternate requirements for unit level scouters who have spent years doing the 2 and 3 day campouts, but use their limited vacation days for family, so never do the long term. Especially if they have made the effort to get advanced outdoor training. Have had a couple that were deemed ineligible because of no summer camp, yet had spent in excess of 25-30 nights out with the troop over a few years, and did High Adventure training, Trail Boss, and first aid, including wilderness level. One finally was able to go to summer camp; but his son was pushing 17 by then. We had nominated his dad the year before, including an explanation of his qualifications, but our local SE refused to waive the summer camp part. Really was disappointing, as he had hoped to go through an Ordeal with his son. But, when he did do it, his son was there getting Brotherhood. But, as one of the gold tabs informed me at jambo 2010; "No way will they ever consider having an optional adult requirement. If they cannot go to summer camp; tough luck." Or words to that effect.

OGE; Do I sense a smidgen of sarcasm?

http://scoutingmagazine.org/2011/12/from-the-chief-get-our-scouts-outside/

No where do I see any authorization for throwing out a completed and approved project that is turned in as part of the Eagle board prep. Once it is signed off by the required individuals, then it is done. Now, discussion of the project might warrant some serious questions and clarifications. We once had to have the candidate fix paperwork relating to hour compilation so to make it clear that he used more than his sister, mother, and father in completing the project. He had not made his work force clear, nor how many hours they actually contributed. We rescheduled his board and he had reworked the part needed to reflect accuracy and not likely be an issue at National somehow. But, this was done before actually sitting the candidate for the face to face. Review of the paperwork by the board prior to the interview, led to the decision. The scout and his parents understood completely the concerns, and it concluded a couple weeks later successfully. We all learned something from it actually, I think. As a SM, I was reminded that I need to review the final paperwork completely, so as to hopefully eliminate a problem. And the individual that vets the paperwork initially, also realized he had missed this when reviewing initially, and made a note in his checklist to not have that happen again. But, the new forms are far better than those prior to this. And the ability to simply say "see attached" is still there.

Friday night and Saturday morning, February 10-11, 2012. Same location; Oxnard Elks Lodge, 801 South A Street, Oxnard, Ca.

I have had a modicum of success with taking garlic tablets. While now it is also a supplement for generic health, I began using it years ago for camping. Take a few days ahead of time daily, then take it at least once a day at camp, twice if really buggy. Since doing this, have had far less issue with most insects. Horse flies do not care, and no see-ums still swarm, but appear to not like me when they land. Reality is that if you camp, bugs are part of the coping process. I saw one guy with one of those hat fans, and he did not have many bugs around his head; do not know about other exposed areas. Of course, as noted, netting and protective clothing is often half the battle.

Happy Boxing Day

Thanks Bart, interesting discussion of the explanation. Still, another fun thing to try and explain old traditions. Realistically, most of the old songs and so on are difficult to really determine origin. Silent Night does appear to have truth to its story. Surely there are a few others. Merry Christmas or whatever you prefer.

Passing along a piece of possible history related to traditions; whether it is accurate or not, I do not know. This answers the old question regarding the meaning of the 12 days of Chrismas: I did not write it, but appreciate the lesson. From 1558 until 1829, Roman Catholics in England were not permitted to practice their faith openly. Someone during that era wrote this carol as a catechism song for young Catholics. It has two levels of meaning: the surface meaning plus a hidden meaning known only to members of their church. Each Element in the carol has a code word for a religious reality which the children could remember. -The partridge in a pear tree was Jesus Christ. -Two turtle doves were the Old and New Testaments. -Three French hens stood for faith, hope and love. -The four calling birds were the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. -The five golden rings recalled the Torah or Law, the first five books of the Old Testament. -The six geese a-laying stood for the six days of creation. -Seven swans a-swimming represented the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit--Prophesy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Contribution, Leadership, and Mercy. -The eight maids a-milking were the eight beatitudes. -Nine ladies dancing were the nine fruits of the Holy Spirit--Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self Control. -The ten lords a-leaping were the ten commandments. -The eleven pipers piping stood for the eleven faithful disciples. -The twelve drummers drumming symbolized the twelve points of belief in the Apostles' Creed. So there is your history for today. This knowledge was shared with me and I found it interesting and enlightening and now I know how that strange song became a Christmas Carol...so pass it on if you wish.' Merry (Twelve Days of) Christmas Everyone

Years ago, I was honored at Chawanakee with selection for their "Pioneer Hike". It is sort of similar to some OA traditions, and related to their camp tribe, as well. Anyway, one of the things asked of the honorees was to write their thoughts in a log book after the overnight. Following is what I wrote; and it seems to kind of fit here. Pioneer Hike (8-04-83) Reflecting on the scouting way, while set alone within the wood; I saw the boy that once was me who sought to grow, be understood. But now its someone else's son whose youthful zeal rings through the trees, who looks to Me to understand, to see the way He sees. Thus, the cycle has come around, the scouting boy became a man; and what he learned within his youth, he returns, the best he can. Camp Chawanakee, B.S.A. Shaver Lake, Calif. 8-5-83

Kudu; From what I have read in the historical material I have, and also can discern to some extent from old time scouters' stories, and even many photos from the early days, backpacking was not a particularly normal thing. They used trek carts and wagons, as well as pack horses or mules, and carried minimal personal gear in rucksack type gear. Not to say they did none at all, but the other types were far more common. Of course day hikes were a huge part of the program. Often leaders would cart the main gear to a site, and the scouts would then hike to meet them. I suspect that many scouts of that period would be really surprise how much gear is now backpacked by the scouts themselves, without wheels or four legged friends. Of course, the gear is no where comparable, so it is not apples to apples. Summer camps were far different then too. Most were individuals going, rather than troops; occasionally a patrol. Most were at least 10 days to 3 weeks. They did have their version of group cooking; most camps had a regular cook that fed the scouts and staff from a kitchen of some kind; often a tent and outdoor stove, but eventually camps had real cook houses. Halls were not overly common, but large eating areas were, under canvas of some kind. Tents were often very large, holding more than the two common today. While your desire to see BSA go back to what you see as its best years has many positive points; you really should consider that even then, they were always evolving. Many of the serious outdoor troops do things today that scouts then would never have imagined; and they do them more safely, and with far superior equipment. And I have seen a lot of very successfully "boy led" units over the years, with good patrols which can, and sometimes do function separately. Still, that element really does need a lot of strengthening, I would agree; especially in those units that are pretty much assembly lines led by adults. Ironically, the two largest troops in our council, with the best patrols, also turn out large quantities of Eagles. Having sat on many of their boards, seen them at COR's, and also counseled them at times, I can assure you that their skills are pretty good overall.

Am with John in K.C. on this too; bring on the POX. Also bring back the Clinton structure, including actually under budget.

Scoutmaster, or SM has a secondary meaning, "silent member". This was near the end of a page long discussion of meeting ideas and concepts. Amazing how simple it can be.

National Council is trying to take "outing" out of Scouting. BSA hates atheists, agnostics, and Gays. Anyone should be able to join BSA, even if they do not want to work within its rules and traditions. Boy Scouts are all "sissies" and other negative labels indicating weak and lame.

Here is the link to where the report was found. I was not really aware of this particular part of the National site, and find it pretty interesting. Take a look; it is surprisingly helpful in some areas, and actually appears to try and address some things brought by we "trench peons". At least a step in the right direction it seems to me. http://scout-wire.org/2011/12/

Thanks Moose' for your expansion and clarification. Well done. Point of course is that ultimately, it comes back to our own personal convictions and thought process.