skeptic

When we ran the annual drives, everyone was "encouraged" to donate, but not necessarily pledge. Got a lot of $1 donations. I know at least once or twice, in the last store in which I worked, the store manager expected his underling managers to kick in a donation for any of their employees that did not do so themselves. I ran the drive once, and it we had a dozen or so that refused to participate, for whatever reason. Yet, somehow, we ended up with 100%, due to the behind the scene directive. The real irony was that when less pressure was used, we had better results, even if fewer donated. I made sure that year that everyone "understood" directed donations, and that is how I was able to get quite a few holdouts to contribute.

Still curious as to the thoughts on our SE report at our annual meeting which I noted yesterday. Has anyone else seen such a public exposure of the latest policies? Is it an indicator of a change in direction?

My question would be how can I be shown "proof" that my designation "actually" went to the specified group? Getting a straight answer from them is like looking for the proverbial needle. But, I am retired and do not need to be concerned directly anymore.

We had our annual meeting gathering last night, and when the SE gave his report/speech, he spent a lot of time on this subject, indirectly. Basically, he noted the multi-level youth protection safe guards, and specifically mentioned the file as one of the barriers. While I have no idea if this came from National, it would seem that a SE would not publicly make these comments to a large group of scouters without some type of higher up approval. The fact that we are right next door to Santa Barbara adds to the weight of these statements. Maybe this is a new front on this issue by National; put it out there as our policy, one that was implemented to keep these people out and was way ahead of the time. Would have to disagree that shredding the files would be a good choice, especially now. That just adds fuel to the fire to those that will find issues. Basement, while I too would "think" that in this case the plaintiff is on very soft ground, I would not have predicted the outcome in Oregon. The illogic in many jury decisions, as well as what often appears judicial bias in some judges, constantly amazes me.

"Most of all, perhaps, we need intimate knowledge of the past. Not that the past has any magic about it, but because we cannot study the future, and yet need something to set against the present, to remind us that the basic assumptions have been quite different in different periods and that much which seems certain to the uneducated is merely temporary fashion. A man who has lived in many places is not likely to be deceived by the local errors of his native village; the scholar has lived in many times and is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that pours from the press and the microphone of his own age." (Learning in Wartime, 1939; C.S.Lewis)

Come on folks; if you want an alternative, it is there, even if you may have to go to more than one group. If you are that disenchanted, then that may simply be your best solution. It is pretty obvious that a few are not content within the BSA systems, and keep complaining and knocking it. Work within it, find personal and local solutions, or go somewhere else. As I have stated previously, if you are so unhappy with BSA that you can find little positive to say here, then I am concerned as to how you come across to those with whom you work. Scouting, within the BSA organization or elsewhere is still a choice. My experience has shown that most people that "constantly" have mostly negative things to say about something in which they participate, carry a similar attitude to other associations. Dwelling on the negatives constantly is not conducive to a happy involvement and likely not a particularly happy life. JMHO

While this can be a problem, it should usually be a family issue, and theirs with which to deal. The more we make it an issue, the more likely it is to be used by rebellious teens or preteens as a dare, or to push the limits. In an overwhelming amount of cases, it certainly should not become a felony or reason to ruin lives forever due to stupid decisions. Sometimes it simply amazes me how often someone in our society can build all these mountains from mole hills, so to speak. If we do not over react, and treat each case as needed, on the family level if at all possible, the less of a problem it will be overall. That applies to an myriad of poor choices by adolescents and young adults. Just my opinion of course.

Another valuable resource are the old Boy's Life Reprints that began in the late 40's and continued until the late 60's in various printings. Also, just the old Boy's Life Magazines themselves. A lot of material that covers details of various skills is now easily available on line and can be copied and printed selectively. And there are now more and more dvd's being made that cover much of the material. There is NO reason that leaders need to ONLY use BSA materials for their teaching. We are blessed with an abundance of older materials, including books and so on; but I am continually impressed by the NON BSA material that I find in the old files. Instead of moaning about this, just go out and get what you need, then put it in their hands and have them do it. Reality is that no matter how well a manual is written, or how deep the material may be, it still must be LEARNED BY DOING. Meanwhile, share stuff as you can, and develop your own ways to pass the skills along, ways that work for you. Ultimately, if you are the adult leader, then you need to take the reins of training and pass the info on. EDGE, as noted, is basically doing just that. You can beat this all to death, but the material is there for the taking. Just use the resources you have, and dig for more if you feel it is needed.

Engineer; They sort of just pushed them out, either by violence, or some other process. Not a lot to go on back then, except that one supplanted the other. But, based on the differences in anthropological materials, it is pretty obvious that it was most likely a power grab, or isolation from livable territory. Of course, they do continue to discover more and more, though very slowly.

OGE; Interesting list; has significant historical value. The number of local councils in early days, prior to 1930 or so, is significant. That they appear to have merged, often a number of times, each time becoming larger challenges the viability of small councils and truly local control. It continues to be an issue from what I see, especially where the councils are "so" large that some members likely rarely see their professionals, and have to do everything by mail or computer. Thanks.

I will throw in on this game. Homo Sapiens versus Homoerectus and Neanderthals.

Le Castor; sounds familiar. Thanks.

Please, those that find the need to be insulting or bait others; stop! Try to remember the Scout Oath and Law. Thanks.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

In some respects, though it was unsuccessful, the Civil War fits the criterion. We also have had numerous mini revolutions within cities and regions; for example, Watts. Between these and the wacko's we have had our share.

Once the project is considered complete by the recipient, the EBOR rep responsible for project reviews should also review it to be sure it meets the standard expected. If it does not, then he or she should discuss it with the candidate, and NOT sign for final approval. It should not pass to the actual Eagle board to decline the project at that point, unless there is a major issue discovered or dishonesty. Follow the procedures for approval to start, and make sure that reviews are actual reviews, and not just sign the line. Those putting their signatures on these project papers need to take their approvals seriously. Half the problems that occasionally occur are because the ADULTS do not understand their roles, or they are too afraid to step on someone's toes. If you take the responsibility, then do it right.

A lot of kids now actually will wear the zip off pants to school, and have little concern about them, as they are very similar to other popular styles. I so far have had pretty good luck with mine, though being old and ill shaped, they may not look as sharp as I would like. Of course,they still do sell the non cargo style; and if I knew I would not lose the weight I have now (which I do hope to reduce)I might buy a pair for formal occasions like council dinners and courts of honor held in formal manner. I still have a pair of the older pants that could be creased if I wished, but they are too snug, so I do not wear them anymore. The zip offs are okay, and far more comfortable. Consider though that military has two versions; one for work, the fatigues, and one for dress. I had fatigues in the Air Force which were worn most of the time, but then was required to travel in dress uniform. On the rare occasion there was a formal ceremony, we also wore them, which included the tight fitting jacket with the metal buttons, along with wool or lighter weight blue pants. We also had a summer dress uniform which was kind of tan, but we could not wear that for extremely formal affairs, though we could travel in it between about April to October. I ask scouts to travel in the official shirt, but do not make them wear the pants. They are encouraged to have them, but we are not official except waist up. In vehicles they can be in t's, but if we stop to eat or something, they still need to put on their shirts; but necker's are not needed. Most summer camps ask you to dress completely for dinner flags, and some also for breakfast; and some troops ignore the requests, while others wear full uniform to everything. I saw one troop with a makeshift closet; every scout had two complete uniform shirts, and they hung them up while in camp, but had to wear them if not doing activities and they left. Still, I too have seen some lesser priced pants that could easily pass for scout pants, due to the color. The shirt is a different issue. But, technically, any uniform shirt is allowed, as long as it is worn correctly. My older 70's style shirt I wear for RT staff does not look quite as good with the cargo's as it did with the older style pants. But it works. Ultimately, we simply do the best we can. We have a uniform closet, but currently have hardly any choice in sizes. Either they are too small or too large at the moment. Some of the boys like the old khaki shorts for some reason, and I had one boy that wore the old 50' shirt and the red bordered flap pants (til he outgrew them). We have a number of those in the closet. If I could get enough to fit them all, I would love to have the collarless shirt for camp.

Does it even matter if the board was done and he was awarded the rank? We probably all know Eagles that are borderline at best, and some we probably would not personally have passed with the knowledge of them we have. But it is apparently a done deal. Better to just take a deep breath and try to make others scouts who have doubts understand that each person needs to do what is right within themselves; and begrudging someone something is not a good way to be, even if you have good reason. Just my opinion of course.

See below for recently posted link. http://scoutingmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/2011rtn.pdf

_____________________ FOR COUNCIL SERVICE CENTER USE ONLY Report received Certificates issued Mailed or issued to Date mailed Record Posted 1. Advancement procedures: Troops/Teams: All Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts ready for advancement must appear before a board of review composed of at least three members. The advancement report for each board of review must be signed by at least three members of the board, including its chairman. This is directly from the advancement report on-line. "The advancement report for each board of review must be signed by at least three members of the board, including the chairman". This is the part that I am talking about. We cannot print a report until we have a review with a valid date. I suppose we could simply put in the likely date, then change it manually, but the report cannot be submitted to council without the right date and a hard copy with signatures where they release the entered data from the report.

While this is likely discussed here and there in some earlier posts, it is now becoming a bit more of a concern for me. I am hearing more and more talk about National soon requiring ALL reports to be done electronically, and the discontinuation of the paper forms all together. While I really find overall the advancement on-line a good process, it so far does not deal with the need for signatures on rank advancements. Currently, in order to not have any unnecessary delay in the filing, we use PAPER for rank advancements so the board members can "IMMEDIATELY" sign after the review is completed. If you do not know who the reviewers actually will be for sure, and you do not for certain a scout will pass, how can you print the report before hand? That being the case, you would have to have someone print it AFTER the review, then arrange to get the signatures. You could possibly add weeks to the filing process. Are there answers I am missing, or is this simply something about which no one has yet had much concern?

Obviously, being an Eagle is not necessarily a guarantee of stability, intelligence, and common sense. Just look at Perry.

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Basement: "So I am guessing your a professional?????? " Considered it briefly in 1971; but found out what they really did, and how they had no personal life due to their ridiculous schedules. In my 35th year as SM of a troop; was an ASM in Germany in the mid 60's, RT commissioner staff, unit commissioner, member at large, jamboree 1st ASM in 1985 and staff in 2010, as well as going as junior leader in 1960. Woodbadge beaded in old course, but staffed first "new" course as TG, done numerous training courses on staff and been to training at PTC 5 times, as well as 2 treks there with my unit. Until recently we backpacked regularly, but am now trying to find younger adults to assure they continue, as I cannot do longer hikes anymore. Our DE lets us run our RT for the most part, and simply gives us materials and info, while answering questions if needed. He is also in charge of one of our camps, while working as acting exec for two other districts. Yet, he never has refused to help me with issues, though sometimes it can be longer than "I" would like. ASE is similar, and overworked as well; yet he finds the time to deal with issues if needed. Our council has been understaffed for years now and barely is in the black, and was in the hole a couple of times. Have seen huge exec turnover, as they do not make enough to start to live where we are, and it can push their personal lives over the edge, and have seen it if they are dedicated. Many quit, just because of that. Would agree we likely pay too much to any head council executive, including ours; and that annoys me. But, overall, have only had two exec's that I felt were terrible. As I said, you seem to have experienced the worst of the worst. My point is that you are using your personal experience to paint the entire profession; and, to me, that seems wrong and unfair to the many who spend most of their lives at relatively low pay, and terrible working hours, yet still get to camp, and lean over backwards to find solutions if they can. Still, as must be obvious, I still stay on the unit level for the most part. And, I do get frustrated with certain elements of the National bureaucracy. But, having met a number of National level "volunteers", I think they try to keep it focused on the kids. PC pressure, and other things get in the way often; and, in my opinion, they do make some very wrong choices. Hopefully they will figure it out. Meantime, I will go back to my troop and work on getting us to our centennial in 10 years. Keep up your own work focused in the right place. Just try to expand your view beyond the difficulties close to home, and do what you can to work with what you have. With luck, your executive board will figure things out and do what they need to do. If it is as bad as portrayed, someone with some time and pull in the volunteer level needs to spearhead a COR rebellion. It has happened many times over the years; and when it does, the council usually gets better. Good luck.

Once more we get to definitions of bullying and emotional abuse. What appears to be considered bullying today was not even close when I was a scout. What is considered emotional abuse is often nothing more than telling the truth about something and confronting an individual. To often today we seem to think that we are not supposed to correct or fail a scout because it might "hurt their feelings". Am not saying that is the case here, because we simply DO NOT really know. Basement: I understand your distaste in general for everything beyond your own unit pretty much; but you really need to tone it down. Not all professionals are the way yours appear to be based on your reports. Many more ARE concerned about the youth in the program and work very hard to coordinate those needs with their jobs. Just my own opinion of course, but after 40+ years I have seen far more professionals on the good side of the coin than on the bad side; though the few I have seen on the bad side were really bad. Thanks for your work with your unit though.

While there surely should be camperships made available, the pool is a critical element in most camps. It may have been necessary to do the update due to health and safety issues if it is old. Much of the pool system is not visible to most, but they can become very inefficient and costly as they get old, especially if they break underground. Also, sometimes there are donors that specify money for a particular item. Any number of reasons. However, I am not in your council, so do not see what you apparently see. I do know that a spread sheet for camp costs, including salaries for staff, food, utilities, store supplies, and so on are available in our council with a bit of digging. The money spent has not met the income for over a decade. But we still have camperships, money specifically donated for that purpose. Always room for improvements, even in the best run councils and camps.