skeptic

Actually, by restrictions on wheeled vehicles, we will then encourage lashing of travois' for moving materials. So, we will enhance this currently little used skill. Just think of the ingenuity the scouts will need to move things without "modern" methods of conveyance.

Yep, if the scout has not even seen the mb booklet, then he usually has not made any real effort to do anything. When called by a scout, I tell them they need to review the book at least, as it will give them basic info. Most of the books have pretty good reference lists included, so the more in depth stuff can be found through that list. Of course, if a scout has researched it without the book, and actually knows the material, once cannot fault that. Still, it is another reflection of our modern society that reading is often not a skill encouraged in the home, just as handwriting in cursive, or at least "legible" printing, is not reinforced. I am continually flabbergasted by how often my scouts have not even read the two pages of basic info in their scout books on various subjects. And, using an index or appendix seems to be a novel idea to many as well. One comment about price of the current merit badge pamphlets surprised me. $5 today is not a high price for a color, glossy formatted booklet. If nothing else, the scout publications today have some pretty good photo, maybe too many in some instances, but still well done overall. As counselors, we need to make the effort to challenge the boys, even if it means rescheduling sometimes. I have had some for various citizenship badges return at least once, and occasionally 3 times. I also now make myself available on-line for questions and assistance if they need it. Certainly, just because a boy filled out the available worksheet, he has not actually completed the badge; especially since many of the ideas need to be "discussed".

Just for clarification, Hiking Merit Badge has NEVER been an Eagle requirement, and only became an option in the past two decades. The ONLY MB's continuous required since 1912, or in an option, are Life Saving and First Aid, with the latter the only continuously absolutely required. Do not remember if Lifesaving ever had a mile swim requirement, but do not believe so, rather a quarter mile. Will have to go look in old books to see on that. Swimming was officially listed the first time in 1925, but one would assume to get Life Saving a scout would need to swim. It actually was in and out a number of times in the 20's through 40's. There are a lot of fables as to what early boy scouts needed to do for various things. Tenderfoot was almost a gimme for years, but becoming 2nd and 1st was intensive. Eagle, along with Star and Life, first Life and Star, were basically just advanced merit badge recognition's until the 20's when leadership and elements of service were added to evaluations, but very generic and subjective. Projects did not start until about 1965 or so. Early requirements reflected the culture of the day to some extent, but they still were NOT anti new technology. Scouts were turned to during WWI for help with wireless receivers and so on, as they were really into building them, and understood better than most adults. Fire by friction or flint and steel was NEVER a requirement, as matches already existed. They were encouraged to learn the skill, but two matches was the actual lighting rule. Personally, I would love to see the first three ranks more restrictive, in that there are "some" time restraints between, and some type of strengthening of basic skills and their retention. But, even back then, there were likely "parlor scouts", as the sign offs were not always strictly overseen, anymore so than today sometimes. Overall, boys in the program were far more prepared than the average boy of their period, but there were some that likely would still be considered less the ideal, even today.

There are some good reasons for having school go longer; but it would also mean starting later. Study after study has shown adolescents do not function well in the morning, as they need to sleep later than normally allowed. So, if school started two hours later, say 10 or so, and went to 5, or 11 and went to 6, it might be better on the middle school and high school levels. Anyone who has taught knows that kids generally are zombies for the first couple of periods, and they often get little out of the periods. A mid morning class is generally much more attentive and involved. More time for sleep, and a better opportunity for a real breakfast might mean a lot. But, due to the work schedules of most parents, it would not be particularly viable, unless they have a way to make sure the kids are up and moving to get to a later school day, as well as eat and so on. And as noted, sports and so on would be negatively impacted if academics went later. Not likely practices would be viable in the morning, for the same reason classes are harder for that age. So, do not see much chance for this, at least not with our current societal norms. Now, if later was an option, for those families for whom it might be better, it would be interesting. Would also give teachers options for their own work times. Some might prefer doing their out of school work earlier in the day, and going later, especially ones without children at home.

While noted already that the protective gear is not specified for the most part, but is just a list, it still lends the idea to some that you MUST use ALL these things. Not well presented, for sure. As far as tools and so on goes, they are basically suggesting that volunteer leadership does not have the brains of a rock, so are incapable of making judgement decisions about safety. They also are simply adding to the fears already being instilled into kids today, thus making them even less adventurous or willing to try anything new. In this case, I would agree with Kudu, in that standards from the 20's would fit for the most part. Then we expected boys to be able to do "adult" work by the time they were 10 or 11, and even younger when working on farms and so on. Seems to me that the fear of litigation is smothering the purpose of the program. I suppose if someone were to get hurt using a four wheeled wagon, then BSA could point to this list and say they are not liable, as they had rules in effect that were not followed. I must admit that I can see how wheel barrows could be an issue with smaller boys, bad terrain, and heavy material; but mostly just losing the load. Proper supervision would put large enough people on them, as necessary, and not allow kids playing on/in them. Hopefully we might see a reevaluation of the overkill here, and a recention of the current foolishness, and a realistic guideline later. Meanwhile, I wonder how the older boys are going to feel when told they have to be the ones doing all the heavy work, even with wagons. At our camp, they have wagons and carts to move troop equipment from the parking lot.

Base'; Really like this; "I enjoy the banter around the campfire, the bickering about menus, complaints of sore feet, the smiles of the boys who didn't think they could do it.....The parents saying their son has changed and is more confident.... " Seen it many times. A boy on an outing generally sees or learns something new. And the pride of an 11 year old that decided to sleep out in the open and "survived" is amusing and inspiring. We just came back from Camporee, and I was happy to see the boys starting to finally work together; but it takes patience, especially when you have a number of "challenge" kids. (Have a brand new one; an am holding my breath, but think he can be brought around with patience and "balanced" counseling). Yes Fish; we should always strive to set an example, not only in front of the scouts and families, thought that is critical, but here and any place we are. Someone is almost always watching. I lost my temper once on a campout when older scouts hazed another, as well as decided "all spiders should be caught and thrown in the fire". We had a guest parent and Webeloe with us; and they were never seen again except in another unit. Good thread.

With today's election criteria, it really takes a scout being unpopular not to be elected. Or, somehow, the voting scouts do not understand the procedure. I too realize they are unlikely to go back to even the 90's rules, I think they would be better off to have some form of "real honor" involved again, rather than the way it is now. We old guys that were elected in the early days often went years not being chosen, due to those restrictions. But the prestige and mystery of the Order also were something to which you generally hoped to be invited eventually. All discussed before, so just too bad that our permissive society has so negatively affected this. JMHO of course.

You will not get an actual answer from BadenP, as he obviously needs to continue to hone his axe, for whatever reason. BadenP; "A Scout is Reverent"; he "respects" the religious convictions of others". You seem to think they do not; but you are simply doing the same thing, if that is your gripe. As far as scouting organization goes, I do not see anything in their material indicating they are calling themselves one anyway. They are one more youth group, an option for those with some concerns about other female groups available. And, the restrictions are on adults anyway, not youth, pretty much like the joining requirements for BSA.

The issue is resolved, according to the link in comments from the article. They are changing the patch, after an open meeting with the troop members, parents, and concerned groups. http://latinorebels.com/2012/04/06/milwaukee-boy-scout-troop-11-removes-fleeing-immigrant-patch-after-positive-meeting/

When I began the thread, it was simply sort of an aside comment that there was quite a bit of interest in AHG's at the expo. Did not see any indication that something was being hidden, as noted early on. The few individuals in this now very long thread who have such personal antipathy, verging on hate as sensed through some statements, are truly a bit scary. If this is the attitude that a scouter displays towards other groups or people with whom they disagree, then they may wish to reconsider their involvement working with youth. Children, as has often been noted, are sponges, especially at the younger ages; but more intellectually during puberty and late teens. The kind of vitriol in a small few of these posts is not something any child or young adult should have presented as an example. One can say that these kind of attitudes and feelings are not shared with the kids. But, they will see them anyway when they have the strength of some put forth here. And this really is seen in a few of the other threads as well. From my personal perspective, at least one poster might seriously consider finding a new name for here, as the one with which he posts is not reflective of the man to whom it originally belonged in relation to the program. Surely, he would not be accepting of these kinds of comments. Maybe it is time to close this thing, and move on. As some are fond of saying; "time for pie".

How many apps could be avoided, especially on the Scouter level, if they would develop a way to change jobs, or add others, using simply the basic info with an established member number, and do it on-line with a simple release from the local council? I have seen some scouters turn down becoming a district level volunteer officially, simply because the paperwork is so redundant. It likely could also apply to youth either moving to another unit, or co-registering in some capacity. Still, we cannot ever really be up to everyone's perception of inefficiency in the digital, on-line world. There are still some out there without computers. There are those that simply will never grasp the real opportunities, so fall back on outdated formats. And National is still likely too slow in their development of tools and integration to local level; but they really are far better than they were, and actually have useful, if difficult to find, material available on-line. Try to put patience ahead of the frustration. Easy to say; sometimes difficult to do.

Recently an elderly scouter friend publicly pinned a West pin on my shirt and gave me the certificate and knot. He is using it to recognize other scouters with whom he has worked for many years, and it is a form of respect, appreciation, and friendship. I had been given a similar, but less obvious public recognition with the West award years ago, when it was new; but was not comfortable wearing the knot, as at the time, I really did not understand the whole concept, and felt I did not deserve to "wear" the knot, since I did not personally give the money. Also, the award was posthumous in honor of one of my former Eagle's and ASM killed in a training accident in the AF. I was honored, and have the original items in my personal memorabilia; but I never put the knot on a shirt. This one, I felt it would be disrespectful NOT to. The man has honored over a dozen individuals at this point. He has no family except scouting, and this is his way of giving his estate to the program while honoring friends. So, you respond with what is comfortable and seems right. Unless others know the whole story, they will think what they think. But who cares?

To have one.

E92; Suspect there is some flexibility with the "pool" area, as there are numerous camps with lakes, either real or man-made. Those in our area with which I am familiar have specially designed areas within the lake front for swimming. So, while no pool in many instances, they do have constricted areas in the waterfront. Also applies at the camps on Catalina Island. They still do the mile in open water in most of these areas, though I understand that Cherry Valley no longer goes into open ocean as they did years ago when I did it; about half was actually outside the cove, first against the current, then with it. Was an interesting phenomena for someone like me, as I have never been a real wave rider. All open water swims require a buddy boat with a watcher and rescue equipment.

Pack; that is funny about the hill. I like to tell kids today about our test in a 58 Chevy with dual controls; back when driver ed was the norm. We had a 30% or a bit more hill above town. The driver ed teacher would drive us up there, park on the hill, then give us the same test. It was a 3 speed manual on the column, as was fairly common then. I can still do the trick with a car, but not sure how I would fare with a truck. Parallel parking was also a fun test; took me a while to get close enough to the curb for him, but still do a fairly good job most of the time. Driving a truck for the Forest Service in 69, I was introduced to the electric clutch on the stick. Never really got that down like I would have liked, though got it to work. Fun times.

So, did younger horse riders, or wagon drivers also show similar stats? Just asking. Oh, and what effect will the trend to many teens not getting licenses as soon as possible, some waiting to 20's, when a job makes them, and a few simply not doing it? This is partly because of cost of driving and having a car, but also may be affected by stricter rules by the government. I have thought for a long time now that we may underestimate our youth. Overprotected kids are likely to be less able to fend for themselves should the need arise. That can even be seen in history when you read about "rich kids" or youth of "royals" who never had to raise a finger growing up, suddenly having the servants and luxury pulled out. Same age kids from the general populace mostly quite capable, it appears. Focus too narrowly on anything, and you can find a problem or aberration. Kind of like staring at something until your eyes play tricks.

Tried to hold my tongue, but I am simply disheartened by the occasional venom that is posted on this thread about the Presidents, both current and past. One would hope that people who pride themselves on being Scouters might set a better example. Some comments are simply over the line, in my personal opinion. This is one of them.

My question is are we talking about the entry level, Scout? If so, then there is NO board of review, only a SM conference and final approval. BOR is not done until Tenderfoot. Am I misreading this?

A repost of a very old experience I shared way back, but related. The first few years as SM, I did not have many knots to worry about, but did have medals from youth, as well as the Training Award. I was really on the scouts to actually wear their proper, earned insignia and in the manner designated. After a court of honor, I was exasperated that half the kids seemed to not care much to wear complete uniforms, sashes, and so on, so I had a discussion with them. Their response was that if I wanted them to wear their earned awards, then so should I. That came from the boys; and I make sure I have one shirt with the bling for the "formal" occasions. And, I wear related medals when it seems appropriate, but never all of them, after one time, to respond to the TLC's critique. As an aside, often the knots are of interest to younger scouts particularly; and it gives you an opportunity to talk to them about their goals and so on. Mostly though, I tend to say the knots are a result of being an old guy and being around a long time.

OGE; I am with you, as may be noted earlier. Sometimes I just do not understand where some of the comments on the Forum are coming from, especially if the individuals are actually active Scouters. Many are too lazy to actually look at the material before making rash comments and judgments. As you quoted, they are NOT putting on a 4 hour quick get. This appears to be a well planned, and high expectation event. My experience locally on those events is colored by my first experience with one where I had some scouts thinking they they would finish a badge, just because they went. When I explained that was likely not possible for most, I was made aware of the "giveaway" that was then being done on a few critical badges. When I challenged it, I initially met with resistance, but soon found other leaders also were concerned. Now, other than fingerprinting, no badges are gimme's at these activities, and most scouts complete only one or two requirements if no prior work was done. It is then contingent on them to follow up with the counselor. Of course many do not, as evidenced by how few have come to me after for ones I introduced a year ago.

As a long time teacher, subbing at most levels, I cannot say that the schools do a very good job in covering these areas noted in the last post. I am constantly amazed at how little kids understand about even the basics of our history, or the foundations of the government. Of course, it would help perhaps if our reps actually worked within these foundational areas after being elected. But, there really is nothing wrong with expecting a Scout earning Eagle to have a better grounding in these areas than his peers, IMHO anyway. That is contingent on the counselor doing their job though, not just looking at the filled in worksheet in a cursory manner; rather actually discussing pertinent points with the candidate.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Guess showing my age again; earned training for commissioner in late 70's or early 80's, and one requirement was the Arrowhead. Am still on roundtable staff, but no longer considered a commissioner I guess. Thanks for the clarification.

I believe that the Arrowhead is a requirement for completing either commissioner training, which is two years, or the Key, which is three years, and only for "head" commissioners. Of course there are additional requirements for them both.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

While I realize that one of the elements of consideration for location is transportation and supply access, wonder if that element might be a "work around" for a secondary site at Philmont. They have the space, and of course the basic infrastructure is already there for the regular use. One day of busing or train to Raton or Cimmeron could play into the cost for those units coming into large airports, and would not need to add too much to the cost, especially if coordinated on a National level. In 1960, scouts came into Denver from all over, then came mostly in buses to Colorado Springs. We had 57,000 there, so not like it was a small undertaking. Then they could rotate them from East to West (sort of). Still a long trip for the Pacific coast people, especially in the north. But better than 3,000+, and lots of things to see and do on a trip if done on the ground.

"Gentlemen"!?? Even the internet has a "tone". Perhaps we need to take it down a little?(This message has been edited by skeptic)