skeptic

I keep a separate car and license info sheet and say see attached. Then, even if the drivers change, we still have the info. Also keeps me from having to type in that info.

Hmmmm; wonder why BadenP's post does not surprise me. His negativeness in general is becoming very annoying. Or at least to me. Not a good Scouter attitude IMHO; maybe needs to reconsider his username, as his general demeanor is not indicative of the founder.

"I still want to know whether the "important papers" skit is banned now.) ". Supposedly this no longer meets the "standard"; but I continue to see it done, so either the judges do not know, or simply look the other way because it is an old favorite. As far as swim checks are concerned, it is a safety issue. As such it is important to do correctly. Still, those giving the checks, and other scouts should not use failure, or falling short of "swimmer" as a reason to belittle another scout. Rather, they should use it as a reason to encourage the scout to work to pass by week's end, if at summer camp, or in the next few weeks if on a short term or troop level. Frankly, I have seen far too many scouts passed that really only got to the beginner level, but the persons in charge chose to let them struggle to completion. These are the boys who refuse to put their faces in the water, flounder or dog paddle for the most part, and cannot float. Part of it also can be cold water and altitude in some cases. I try to get my boys to be prepared for the shock of the cold at most camps, and if at altitude, since we live on the beach, understand they need to take it easy. It is not a race.

Calico; They cannot give you anything of veracity; just the made up stuff thrown all over the net, and the negative opinions about such things as his not actually attending the Jambo in 2010. I for one was glad we did not have to deal with the security issues that would have caused; but his taped presentation was supportive, just as much so as others. There are some here that will not like anything he does, even if it was a direct result of a republican suggestion, just because he did it. They will claim they are not prejudiced, but their comments and actions indicate otherwise. It is just sad that we really have had few real choices for leadership at any level beyond local for years. Choose the lesser of the evils, so to speak. Unless we can find some way to get the professional politicians out of control, not much will change, IMO. Similar in a way to much of the difficult to stomach National stuff coming from people with little or no actual Scouting experience, especially in the trenches. Oh well; we still are for the most part run the program locally with very good results.

Old Scout; now I know the real reason snipe hunts are on the no-no list. Too many caught and roasted; so they are endangered. Never realized some had been so successful over the years, as we never were, so unable to sample their succulent, savory meat. Would agree that joining should be completing the app and registering, nothing more. Pullups should be reconsidered for sure, as most kids simply cannot do them, even with a lot of practice. Have even seen some very fit scouts and adults that cannot really do them; part of it is body and muscle structure. Tote-n-Chip should be a tenderfoot basic, or at least the knife part of it.

That's good M; cannot actually respond to the real intent of his question, so twist it to suit yourself. We all know exactly what he was asking; still is male and female, not same gender, whether one or many. Since you are atheist anyway, why would you not want a specific separation of civil and religious marriage? And, since the last couple hundred years have seen government recognize religious marriage, what is so important that the civil contract retain that verbal distinction? Will be interesting to hear your manipulations on this. Have fun. Try not to sputter electronically.

It is changing title and format again. Was at our store on Saturday, and the woman at the desk showed me the newest version and said it will become "the" one later this month. Now is "Tour and Activity" plan. Down to two pages again. Our council may still control it appears, but not sure. Advancement is on-line; but you need to turn in a paper copy for verification.

Unless there is a very pushy helicopter parent, boys will advance at their own rate most of the time. Often it is fast, then a lull, then another focused spurt before high school. Then they either finish by 14 or 15 or push at the last moment. I was in a troop in the 50's that had you tie all 7 tenderfoot knots correctly twice in a row one week, then come back and do it again. If you missed any, you started from scratch the next time. Took me forever I thought to get Tenderfoot. Then flew through 2nd, spent months again on First due to Morse Code, and was Life at just short of 14. Completed Eagle at fifteen and a half; but was Life a long time and almost dropped out when started high school and moved to another town at the same time. Point is, my advancement was my choice, as was all my Scouting involvement then and now. My parents were active supporters, but in the background. The strongest Eagles, and Scouts in general, will always be the ones that somehow learn to motivate themselves. Realistically, if troops hold the scouts to the actual intent of all requirements, you will see First Class somewhere between 8 months and 2 years in a moderately active troop. Some will never become Eagle, but stay in anyway if you have what they want. And those are often some of your best junior leaders. Still, somehow taking the "focus" off the advancement rate would be helpful I think, whether by some time restraints built into the requirements, maybe not actual limits, but stricter requirement completion somehow rather than "one and done". I do think putting the T-F boards back on the boy leaders, with adult supervision, would be a good thing. This, like anything with adult supervision, is positive if the adults do their job; same as in the tool supervision or other safety concerns. JMHO

Just one more reason to put leadership choice and decisions in the CO hands, unless they overlook something from a background check. Maybe the new administration will review this again; one can hope.

Over the years have sent parts or all of projects back to the drawing board upfront due to concerns about safety. One boy wanted to trim a mangy tree that was over 25 feet tall and fairly old that was on his church property. We told him this was not something he was qualified to do, and the church should hire a professional. He found something to keep him on the ground. At an ordeal, we have adults using torches, or doing roofing, but never scouts. I had to run a large powered hole digger one year, as it was too cumbersome and heavy for most scouts. Younger scouts often are only put on jobs that are fairly easy and have no intrinsic danger. Probably could come up with many other examples. Point is that common sense and adult supervision is already at play; and if leaders take the job seriously, the danger is probably less than a scout riding his bike or walking to school.

"Lazy parents???? Most of my ADD boy are exactly that.....Single moms who did not discipline their kids when they were 2 and 3. They don't have any fear or respect of mom, they sure as heck aren't going to respect a teacher or scout leader. It is now become an industry of excuses for them...." Another direct nail strike Basement; saw an example this past weekend. New boy did what he wanted and no one stopped him. Amazingly, he is still talking to me, and I saw a flash of respect (hope not fear) when I stood my ground. No accountability in home or school for too many.

Actually, by restrictions on wheeled vehicles, we will then encourage lashing of travois' for moving materials. So, we will enhance this currently little used skill. Just think of the ingenuity the scouts will need to move things without "modern" methods of conveyance.

Yep, if the scout has not even seen the mb booklet, then he usually has not made any real effort to do anything. When called by a scout, I tell them they need to review the book at least, as it will give them basic info. Most of the books have pretty good reference lists included, so the more in depth stuff can be found through that list. Of course, if a scout has researched it without the book, and actually knows the material, once cannot fault that. Still, it is another reflection of our modern society that reading is often not a skill encouraged in the home, just as handwriting in cursive, or at least "legible" printing, is not reinforced. I am continually flabbergasted by how often my scouts have not even read the two pages of basic info in their scout books on various subjects. And, using an index or appendix seems to be a novel idea to many as well. One comment about price of the current merit badge pamphlets surprised me. $5 today is not a high price for a color, glossy formatted booklet. If nothing else, the scout publications today have some pretty good photo, maybe too many in some instances, but still well done overall. As counselors, we need to make the effort to challenge the boys, even if it means rescheduling sometimes. I have had some for various citizenship badges return at least once, and occasionally 3 times. I also now make myself available on-line for questions and assistance if they need it. Certainly, just because a boy filled out the available worksheet, he has not actually completed the badge; especially since many of the ideas need to be "discussed".

Just for clarification, Hiking Merit Badge has NEVER been an Eagle requirement, and only became an option in the past two decades. The ONLY MB's continuous required since 1912, or in an option, are Life Saving and First Aid, with the latter the only continuously absolutely required. Do not remember if Lifesaving ever had a mile swim requirement, but do not believe so, rather a quarter mile. Will have to go look in old books to see on that. Swimming was officially listed the first time in 1925, but one would assume to get Life Saving a scout would need to swim. It actually was in and out a number of times in the 20's through 40's. There are a lot of fables as to what early boy scouts needed to do for various things. Tenderfoot was almost a gimme for years, but becoming 2nd and 1st was intensive. Eagle, along with Star and Life, first Life and Star, were basically just advanced merit badge recognition's until the 20's when leadership and elements of service were added to evaluations, but very generic and subjective. Projects did not start until about 1965 or so. Early requirements reflected the culture of the day to some extent, but they still were NOT anti new technology. Scouts were turned to during WWI for help with wireless receivers and so on, as they were really into building them, and understood better than most adults. Fire by friction or flint and steel was NEVER a requirement, as matches already existed. They were encouraged to learn the skill, but two matches was the actual lighting rule. Personally, I would love to see the first three ranks more restrictive, in that there are "some" time restraints between, and some type of strengthening of basic skills and their retention. But, even back then, there were likely "parlor scouts", as the sign offs were not always strictly overseen, anymore so than today sometimes. Overall, boys in the program were far more prepared than the average boy of their period, but there were some that likely would still be considered less the ideal, even today.

There are some good reasons for having school go longer; but it would also mean starting later. Study after study has shown adolescents do not function well in the morning, as they need to sleep later than normally allowed. So, if school started two hours later, say 10 or so, and went to 5, or 11 and went to 6, it might be better on the middle school and high school levels. Anyone who has taught knows that kids generally are zombies for the first couple of periods, and they often get little out of the periods. A mid morning class is generally much more attentive and involved. More time for sleep, and a better opportunity for a real breakfast might mean a lot. But, due to the work schedules of most parents, it would not be particularly viable, unless they have a way to make sure the kids are up and moving to get to a later school day, as well as eat and so on. And as noted, sports and so on would be negatively impacted if academics went later. Not likely practices would be viable in the morning, for the same reason classes are harder for that age. So, do not see much chance for this, at least not with our current societal norms. Now, if later was an option, for those families for whom it might be better, it would be interesting. Would also give teachers options for their own work times. Some might prefer doing their out of school work earlier in the day, and going later, especially ones without children at home.

While noted already that the protective gear is not specified for the most part, but is just a list, it still lends the idea to some that you MUST use ALL these things. Not well presented, for sure. As far as tools and so on goes, they are basically suggesting that volunteer leadership does not have the brains of a rock, so are incapable of making judgement decisions about safety. They also are simply adding to the fears already being instilled into kids today, thus making them even less adventurous or willing to try anything new. In this case, I would agree with Kudu, in that standards from the 20's would fit for the most part. Then we expected boys to be able to do "adult" work by the time they were 10 or 11, and even younger when working on farms and so on. Seems to me that the fear of litigation is smothering the purpose of the program. I suppose if someone were to get hurt using a four wheeled wagon, then BSA could point to this list and say they are not liable, as they had rules in effect that were not followed. I must admit that I can see how wheel barrows could be an issue with smaller boys, bad terrain, and heavy material; but mostly just losing the load. Proper supervision would put large enough people on them, as necessary, and not allow kids playing on/in them. Hopefully we might see a reevaluation of the overkill here, and a recention of the current foolishness, and a realistic guideline later. Meanwhile, I wonder how the older boys are going to feel when told they have to be the ones doing all the heavy work, even with wagons. At our camp, they have wagons and carts to move troop equipment from the parking lot.

Base'; Really like this; "I enjoy the banter around the campfire, the bickering about menus, complaints of sore feet, the smiles of the boys who didn't think they could do it.....The parents saying their son has changed and is more confident.... " Seen it many times. A boy on an outing generally sees or learns something new. And the pride of an 11 year old that decided to sleep out in the open and "survived" is amusing and inspiring. We just came back from Camporee, and I was happy to see the boys starting to finally work together; but it takes patience, especially when you have a number of "challenge" kids. (Have a brand new one; an am holding my breath, but think he can be brought around with patience and "balanced" counseling). Yes Fish; we should always strive to set an example, not only in front of the scouts and families, thought that is critical, but here and any place we are. Someone is almost always watching. I lost my temper once on a campout when older scouts hazed another, as well as decided "all spiders should be caught and thrown in the fire". We had a guest parent and Webeloe with us; and they were never seen again except in another unit. Good thread.

With today's election criteria, it really takes a scout being unpopular not to be elected. Or, somehow, the voting scouts do not understand the procedure. I too realize they are unlikely to go back to even the 90's rules, I think they would be better off to have some form of "real honor" involved again, rather than the way it is now. We old guys that were elected in the early days often went years not being chosen, due to those restrictions. But the prestige and mystery of the Order also were something to which you generally hoped to be invited eventually. All discussed before, so just too bad that our permissive society has so negatively affected this. JMHO of course.

You will not get an actual answer from BadenP, as he obviously needs to continue to hone his axe, for whatever reason. BadenP; "A Scout is Reverent"; he "respects" the religious convictions of others". You seem to think they do not; but you are simply doing the same thing, if that is your gripe. As far as scouting organization goes, I do not see anything in their material indicating they are calling themselves one anyway. They are one more youth group, an option for those with some concerns about other female groups available. And, the restrictions are on adults anyway, not youth, pretty much like the joining requirements for BSA.

The issue is resolved, according to the link in comments from the article. They are changing the patch, after an open meeting with the troop members, parents, and concerned groups. http://latinorebels.com/2012/04/06/milwaukee-boy-scout-troop-11-removes-fleeing-immigrant-patch-after-positive-meeting/

When I began the thread, it was simply sort of an aside comment that there was quite a bit of interest in AHG's at the expo. Did not see any indication that something was being hidden, as noted early on. The few individuals in this now very long thread who have such personal antipathy, verging on hate as sensed through some statements, are truly a bit scary. If this is the attitude that a scouter displays towards other groups or people with whom they disagree, then they may wish to reconsider their involvement working with youth. Children, as has often been noted, are sponges, especially at the younger ages; but more intellectually during puberty and late teens. The kind of vitriol in a small few of these posts is not something any child or young adult should have presented as an example. One can say that these kind of attitudes and feelings are not shared with the kids. But, they will see them anyway when they have the strength of some put forth here. And this really is seen in a few of the other threads as well. From my personal perspective, at least one poster might seriously consider finding a new name for here, as the one with which he posts is not reflective of the man to whom it originally belonged in relation to the program. Surely, he would not be accepting of these kinds of comments. Maybe it is time to close this thing, and move on. As some are fond of saying; "time for pie".

How many apps could be avoided, especially on the Scouter level, if they would develop a way to change jobs, or add others, using simply the basic info with an established member number, and do it on-line with a simple release from the local council? I have seen some scouters turn down becoming a district level volunteer officially, simply because the paperwork is so redundant. It likely could also apply to youth either moving to another unit, or co-registering in some capacity. Still, we cannot ever really be up to everyone's perception of inefficiency in the digital, on-line world. There are still some out there without computers. There are those that simply will never grasp the real opportunities, so fall back on outdated formats. And National is still likely too slow in their development of tools and integration to local level; but they really are far better than they were, and actually have useful, if difficult to find, material available on-line. Try to put patience ahead of the frustration. Easy to say; sometimes difficult to do.

Recently an elderly scouter friend publicly pinned a West pin on my shirt and gave me the certificate and knot. He is using it to recognize other scouters with whom he has worked for many years, and it is a form of respect, appreciation, and friendship. I had been given a similar, but less obvious public recognition with the West award years ago, when it was new; but was not comfortable wearing the knot, as at the time, I really did not understand the whole concept, and felt I did not deserve to "wear" the knot, since I did not personally give the money. Also, the award was posthumous in honor of one of my former Eagle's and ASM killed in a training accident in the AF. I was honored, and have the original items in my personal memorabilia; but I never put the knot on a shirt. This one, I felt it would be disrespectful NOT to. The man has honored over a dozen individuals at this point. He has no family except scouting, and this is his way of giving his estate to the program while honoring friends. So, you respond with what is comfortable and seems right. Unless others know the whole story, they will think what they think. But who cares?

To have one.

E92; Suspect there is some flexibility with the "pool" area, as there are numerous camps with lakes, either real or man-made. Those in our area with which I am familiar have specially designed areas within the lake front for swimming. So, while no pool in many instances, they do have constricted areas in the waterfront. Also applies at the camps on Catalina Island. They still do the mile in open water in most of these areas, though I understand that Cherry Valley no longer goes into open ocean as they did years ago when I did it; about half was actually outside the cove, first against the current, then with it. Was an interesting phenomena for someone like me, as I have never been a real wave rider. All open water swims require a buddy boat with a watcher and rescue equipment.