skeptic

Just returned from sitting on an Eagle board for a young man just starting 8th grade tomorrow who turns 13 on Wednesday. For those going on about young Eagles, I guarantee you this young man more than fits the role of Eagle. He is the sort of "young" man or "boy" man that proves the rule so to speak. Better spoken, better prepared, and simply all around exceptional example of what we hope a scout will become by the time they reach Eagle, superior to many much older whose boards I have sat. Gives you hope each time you do one of these boards, but especially when you have one so young with such obvious promise.

"That makes no sense; the plaintiffs aren't controlling access to public property and excluding the BSA, the BSA is excluding the plaintiffs." Maybe you should get the facts straight. The plaintiffs were never denied access, as they chose to not even try because they might be exposed to some small indication of religion, according to them. Apparently, having to book use through the scout office was too much contact with a supposedly "religious organization". But, since apparently atheism is also, according to the ruling you quoted, then they really do not have much on which to base their argument, even if you discount the fact they never even attempted to book it, nor were actually turned down. Your court.

"No change there; the city leased public land that gives some people inferior access based on religion, sexual orientation, and age+sex." But, if the plaintiff, peripherally is also religious, then what does that do to their complaint in the first place? Just seems to me that it considerably weakens their claims of discrimination by a religious group, as they too could be judged as discriminating against the group. I realize that this is a stretch, but the decision already made by Judge Jones is pretty much stretched to the max as well, or so it seems to me.

"Under US law, discriminating against atheists (because they're atheists) is religious discrimination. Read Torcaso, read Welsh v. United States, read Kaufman v. McCaughtry." So, if it is religious discrimination, as per the above, then it must have a religious aspect. Otherwise, it could not be discrimination; would you agree? If not, then the above determination would appear to be erroneous. If though, it is judged to be accurate by the court, then "atheism" does have a religious connotation, even if only peripherally; much like the BSA is peripherally religious (but not a religion). Now how does that reflect on the astute judgement of Mr. Jones in the San Diego cases? Just wonder how far we can stretch things in either front?

So, have to ask Beavah; any connection to you in this story?

At least if you are using Google, you are given an option to opt out of targeted ads. Just go to this link, review, then decide to either opt out, or simply edit what they already have on your list. http://www.google.com/ads/preferences?hl=en Do not know if there is something similar for other browsers or connected services.

Shortridge; My point was I do not understand why there might be a problem, as here camps are regularly used by non BSA groups and they pay to do so, just as troops do, though a bit more I believe when private camps. There are camps that are leased, and they all are open to the public on the same terms as scouts. And the two largest in San Diego, Balboa and Fiesta Island are the focus of two combined lawsuits by the ACLU on behalf of people who never even actually tried to use the camps. Their suit is due to the BSA supposedly be a religious organization, so they should not have the lease arrangements supposedly granted that are favorable. Does not matter that they are open completely to the public, and the local council pays and has paid tens of millions of dollars in fees, maintenance, and actually built one from scratch to accommodate a request by the city for a youth aquatic camp. Eventually, this should end up with SCOTUS. But, I suppose noting the suites does not fit with this, based on your comments. Though, if some special tax arrangement were to be made to solve the possible concern, then we likely would find another law suite very quickly. I suppose that is how I got a bit mixed up with this.

If in fact the jambo itself draws the projected amount, they still need room for visitors. Certainly better too big than too small. It is still a grass hillside, so how much more effort is involved in being sure it is large enough, just in case? And yes, hopefully they should find a way to utilize it for non scout activities. Do not understand the concerns. Here, all camps are open to outside groups with various restrictions. Off season, our main camp is booked almost year round on weekends, mostly non scout groups. It helps supplement the upkeep, that is for sure. Some camps were built with the stipulations that they be open to other groups, and are simply under the jurisdiction of the BSA in that council. Of course, that is not enough, as the lawsuits most long going all revolve around these very camps that serve the public as much or more than the local scouts. It surprises me that the aquatic camp in L.A. has not been sued; maybe the scouts actually own the property, rather than lease it. But it is open to the public on similar terms as Balboa and Fiesta Island in San Diego. And I am fairly certain that the Newport Sea Base is also open to the public. Then there are the special accommodations with the Costeau group at Emerald Bay that allows public use of the camp related to the oceanography studies during off season. Philmont is also used by outside groups at times, and they also cooperate with local conservation and outdoor groups regularly. A friend of mine who lives in Taos has done global warming studies there for a number of years. I suspect the other two high adventure sites also have outside groups periodically, especially off season. Our local camp always cooperates with the Forest Service in regard to wild fires, having been a base camp on the Day Fire a few years back, and also having our reservoir/lake always available for helicopters in necessary; at least when it has enough water. It may be dry by the peak season this year am afraid. Of course, little if any of these cooperative arrangements and so on are ever noted when the anti BSA groups attack. If actual surveys were done by outside groups, I would not be at all surprised if the extent of "giving back" to local communities, state, and federal locations far exceeds the dollars to which the complainants grouse about. If you add in all the Eagle service hours, it likely is not even close. In our small council alone the annual hours to schools, parks (city, state, and national), churches, special groups, and miscellaneous others exceeds 30,000 each year. But, none of this matters to those that simply would throw out the "baby" to make a point. JMHO of course.

So, what exactly is a "monster trunk derby"? Large boxes on wheels with remote controls; or maybe very large elephants? Just wondering.

Now Moose'; do you really think he is a "great actor"? Maybe in the B level acting of the old black and white westerns on TV. Sometimes fun to watch, but seen one, pretty much seen them all.

Forgot there are still areas like that. Even in 29 Palms where I have my boyhood house that is now an occasional vacation place, they have easy access to dsl or cable, and I suppose satellite. If I carried a laptop, I could easily get on-line there if I wanted; and I occasionally go to the library to check email if I am there for a few days. Hopefully soon that will not be a real issue anymore, as the process works well for those of us that use it. Good luck.

The unit enters the data to Scoutnet, then takes printout to local council. The council releases the report once the actual record is received there and theoretically checked for accuracy. At least that is how it happens here. If a unit does not enter the data, then the council cannot release the report until it IS entered, which could cause a delay, perhaps a big one in a large council. Units are SUPPOSED TO be entering the data directly in order to allow the relatively quick release of the report. I have not tried to obtain any additional out of council info since a year ago, as I have had no need. But, when I did, as I said, it was immediately downloaded to me, and once the transfer application (still need to fill out one, not just a transfer sheet)is entered in your council, then the info is moved to your unit. At least that is how it went with ours. If it has since changed, I would think that is a reversal of the intent.

It is doubtful that any "real" journalists work for media that might be large enough to get picked up regularly. The basics of a story, as I learned, who, what, where, why, and how are seldom all found in any of these types of reports. Who and what are the main keys it appears, depending on what they are trying to do with the respective hack piece. Maybe they should start printing these things in yellow, just to reinforce the type of so called journalism it is.

There's the answer for everyone. National can reinstate the Bookbinding MB. Then you can purchase the pamphlet at the same time you buy the HB and as soon as the book starts to have issues, or immediately if you choose, "fix" the book and get the MB. The bonus would be that maybe a kid or two might even read the book while working on re-gluing.

Actually, if you have a membership number, the basic records are immediately available if they have been properly entered in Scoutnet. I have used it twice to find records, one for a scout, and one for his parent leader. All his advancement info was there, as was the training on record for his father. Was simply a matter of turning in the transfer app and we were done.

WasE62; Don't hold your breath about wearing the shirt if this policy changes as one of the comments by taunters in school is how XXXX the Scouts are, or other ignorant comments. They will not go away, as this is mostly an adult issue unless you bring it up to the actual scouts.

While the book was notated and circled and so on, we had actual rank advancement cards that folded up. We kept them with the book or in a pocket (or lost them sometimes), but that was what was used for the actual advancement info. Today, they still have a small booklet with just the sign off items. Think they could make it black and white and cut the cost in half, but it is useful for some, as it is small enough to keep in a pocket. Of course, the books were that small at one time too, so we carried them there a lot. They also still have the record sheets, similar to ones the scribe kept at one time. Those can be kept and updated as they do something for a secondary record. Actually, that might be a good thing to do in order to add some real responsibility to a scribe's job.

While not required, it is pretty much essential. Though how some would survive should we not keep separate records of some type. And it continually astounds me how often a scout, even older ones, seem unable to even know how to find something in the book. Not only does the advancement section note pertinent pages, but there is an index. As far as rank and meritbadges, any actually completed items, Scoutnet is the place it should be. If a scout transfers, that record should still be there under his registration data. Other stuff, such as campouts, service, and so on is not there. So some sort of additional record might be good to be able to give a scout should they go elsewhere, especially if an actual move to another locality. Yes, the book can also be an interesting historical document of sorts, especially for a family.

Guess it depends on how much you want in your available reports and such. I was talking to a leader from another unit Tuesday evening about TM, as I really am not good at developing my own data programs. I used Rank and File for years, but they went out of business due to not having enough influence to keep up with National. Some of the program is still useful, but my computer crashed and I lost my detailed data base and just have not found a real need to try and resuscitate it just for camping or service reports. Advancement is now available through Scoutnet, so that is the most important item. The woman to whom I was talking really likes it, especially since it apparently is able to link to web pages easily, and allows a lot of customization if you really go into it. Have not seen anything better, but worry a bit about it too suddenly going away due to issues with National.

We certainly had paper merit badge applications in the late 50's and early 60's in So Cal; SGVC and the old Arrowhead Area, now Inland Empire. And I have examples of various types of these forms dating clear back to the 30's. So, maybe much was local at one time. More recently, some of our large council camps have gone to computerized master sheets with individual print outs for each one from camp, including sheets for partials. These took the place of the blue cards in those camps. Our camp is still using them, but we only got electronic sign-up this year; so we may see a different record keeping method for camp soon too. Meanwhile, we no longer are required to turn in a card with the advancement report. So we have basically now a troop record card I guess.

Others I sort of miss; "Lost in Space", "Twelve-o-clock High", "Twentymule Team Days (Yes, it was Reagan)", and a crazy serial called "Topper" that had these crazy ghosts and their ghost St. Bernard. Of course there also were the staples such as "Dragnet", "Car 54", and "Highway Patrol", and "Disneyland, later The Wonderful World of Disney". Who remembers Sheriff John (think I read he eventually was convicted of perversion), and of course "Howdy Doody". So many seemingly simplistic programs that somehow are nostalgic, such as "Ozzie and Harriet", or "Beaver or "Life with Father". I was madly in love with Annette Funicello in 1957, until I realized she was too old; then I decided I liked Karen Pendleton instead; that was the first Mickey Mouse Club of course. Remember while sick the summer of 56 watching the Republican convention and counting Ike's "and, uh's"; I was captive to my grandmother.

Very difficult to comprehend some of the apparent actions, or non-actions. But we also do not know what else may be in the files that might have made the decision happen, such as a parent refusing to allow the filing due to concern for the child or some other reason. I also found the comment section to be very interesting. Seems to be a lot of people that are not particularly fond of the media, and the Times in particular.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-boyscouts-20120805-m,0,5822319.story So, here we have the first of surely many additional attacks on BSA due to the release of some of the so called "Perversion Files". Obviously, they did not always do what was intended; but they often did. And, we really do not know the details of the reentry in those that did slip through, though most were out of the original area, and predated computer records. I am disappointed that there were cases that should not have occurred after the initial record was entered, and especially disappointed some officials made very poor decisions. They have continued to advance with the protections, and we need to use the barriers that we have in place. What continues to be upsetting to me is that during most of the time these records were being compiled, barely anything else was done by others, including legal authorities. There is no doubt errors were made, and sometimes egregious decisions; but where were all the other efforts to stop this stuff? Why was the general response by authorities and even those most affected to just put it out of site and mind, or to NOT believe that certain individuals could actually do this, so the victims got little or no credence, often being labeled unstable or trying to get even or something. Yes, we see these things differently as a society now; but you cannot not undo what was the norm years before. So, here we are today. Let's change the rules, and let's try and destroy a group, even though they did more than others then, and continue to work to strengthen their protections. But they can bring us money and notoriety. I suggest, that while they are subpoenaing records, they start going to ALL the police departments in the country and ask for their records on any similar cases, no matter how old, as well as court records if taken to a higher level. Then, when you find how many similar things may have occurred, hold the police and community leaders responsible, since they did not meet the standards of conduct now seen as prudent. And, do searches for old stories related to these types of things that indicate no guilt was determined, and go back and review them; they too likely will render opportunity.

Yep; and yep, loved Wild, Wild, West.

AZ is right; Robert Conrad was the voice of Matt Dillon. Picture him next to James Arness, and you understand my amusement. We listend on a five band floor console radio with buttons. Of course we also listened to other stuff with our parents, but we got 7 to 9 on Saturday nights most of the time. We did not have a dependable TV until Christmas of 1955 or so did not see much of the really early stuff unless at grandparents. Years ago, we were driving out to Edwards AFB for a Friday through Sunday outing and tour, and I had 5 or 6 kids in the van. We picked up a station from somewhere playing a suspense program of some kind. We arrived at the campsite just before 10PM, and I had 3 scouts refuse to leave the van until the show finished at 10, they were so hooked. Proof again that they still "can" use their imaginations under the right situations. (This message has been edited by skeptic)