skeptic

To all that have fallen into the M trap. You will never win, as M has total faith that he knows all and the rest of us are totally ignorant or unable to make a value judgement. But it will guarantee a somewhat amusing series of ambiguous circuitous postings. Have fun.

And the really sad thing is that many of those same parents, when the unit did go under, blamed it on everyone but themselves most likely.

"It is because the demands of High School are increasing exponentially." What is sad is that with all this pressure in high school, the level of education is getting worse and worse. There is a higher percentage of remediation needed in college now for incoming students than ever. So, with all this high school regimen, what are they teaching? Most of us on these forums went to school with far fewer academic offerings in high school, though more emphasis on vocational skills. I would wager that most of us had far better basic academic skills on HS graduation than those today. On the subject in the thread, I could go along with a coalescing of lower scout ranks and older boy programs to allow earning various challenging higher awards on the line that D.C. discusses. But I would hope we would still keep more or less the current path as one option.

Back in those "old" days merit badges were in groups, and some of the requirements at the higher level was to select from various groups, which tended to broaden the scout's perspective a bit, sort of like general ed does, or did, in college. At the Explorer level, they had ratings, I would have to check, but about 14. They each were equivalent to doing 4-6 merit badges in a specific area, and also had additional in depth details. Possibly reinstating an update of that might challenge some of the older scouts. We had Explorer patrols then too, and we could earn their advancements while still in the troop; or we could break off into a separate post, and co-register in the troop. That allowed units with too few interested older boys to still participate in the Explorer program. I know the changes they made about 1959 really hurt the Explorer program in our area, and it pulled an interesting advancement option out from under many of us.

I don't think it's too much to ask for BSA to think through their projects and spend money effectively. Why should they do things differently than our government?

"Most of this is for little "g" god and not big "G" God. We all know that BSA assumes the latter. Do we really think BSA means something other than the Judeo-Christian-Muslim definition?" Yes, I actually do, if we are speaking of the group, rather than specific individuals. Making brash assumptions is rarely a good thing. While every scouter and scout will attach their own idea as to what this all means, it is the large G, but defined by the family and individual. Getting bogged down with narrow definitions and personal experiences that are/were uncomfortable deflects the more general and purposely vague intent. The basic fine print after Reverent is pretty simple; He is reverent towards God, and respects the religious convictions of others." Putting our own "G" idea is the likely basic intent of this, while respecting others' personal perspectives is the standard of expectation. The real trouble is that when it comes to personal belief systems, too many of us cannot get past the suspicion generated by our own lack of understanding and/or standards within our own "greater" dogma and its tenets. It surely is harder when part of that core faith may direct you to "save" others. So, the challenge is and will continue to be getting beyond ourselves and simply encouraging the scout in the SMC to explore "his" familiar beliefs and possibly reach beyond in a personal quest for clarity and comfort with his spiritual self. Part of that challenge is going to be how to fabricate this discussion while "respecting the convictions of others". My own approach is to nudge them very generally and only go as far as that nudge leads, following their response. Deeper discussion is never part of a SMC, but rather something generated by the scout or scouts, or even scouters and parents in some other setting, often a campfire or on a rock looking at a vista. We also need to be observant of interactions within the unit that may suggest bullying or coerciveness by other leaders or scouts that may arise, and be willing to address it should it happen. Listen and watch; learn to temper our responses; guide; allow the scouts to grow in their own framework.

Like it or not, there is a spiritual/religious element to the foundation of Scouting. It is very broad and for the overall program non specific. But it is there, and we all need to understand and accept that it is part of the overall ideal of Boy Scouting. We again reach this point where we try to make it into something for everyone, and there are some for whom it is simply not the right match. Why do so many feel that somehow it must be changed to accommodate the few, when most have no serious issue with it? If someone comes up against this issue with very young scouts, then it is likely a good idea to refer it to the parents, including explaining to them the expectations of the basic program. Older scouts often are specifically seriously searching, but with a patient discussion most times will likely discover it is a vague awareness of something greater, but it is not fully formed. But, as the scout approaches Eagle, it IS important that they and their family comprehend the program expectations. One of the best ways to simply encourage an introspection for scouts is to have them sleep under the stars separated enough that they turn to simply watching the sky, rather than talking and joking. Similarly, having a quiet time at a spectacular vista point can generate the deeper appreciation of our greater universe and its constant challenge to our understanding. If, in a rare occurrence it becomes clear that a leader is pushing this too much, then we need to intercede and make sure the family and scout do not feel threatened, yet do understand it is an important tenet of the overall program, very pointed in the the Oath and Law.

Here we go again with "the sky is falling". This does not have to be anymore intrusive than the leader makes it. They still stress it is a family and personal thing, and the question does not have to intrude beyond asking if it is being pondered by the scout within his own beliefs and those of his family. It only will be an issue if someone makes it one. And any good leader should be able to handle this with little or no disruption in the program or unit.

Wonder if we might want to actually have a separate forum for things related to computer problems in the various parts of the program. They seem to be a major source of concern and frustration a lot of the time. I am a bit worried National may not stay on top of the need to NOT require IE for "internet advancement" printing of reports much longer. While other browsers seem to work and even be noted as approved in some areas, they still appear to not allow printing the reports outside of IE. Since Windows is eliminating the browser very shortly, that could be a real headache. Of course we already have had the craziness of extra paperwork for different positions within the unit, as well as on the council/district levels. Also the very real problem with outdated links and no on-line ease of contact in many levels of the program. Lots of other similarly based issues keep coming up.

Okay, so it appears that "some" councils have more room than others to improve. Guess we are blessed with mostly efficient office staff, and ones with common sense. They still follow the rules, but a card with the scouts name on it and properly signed for, say First Class, would generally suffice. And if there is a need to check the record, it is generally pretty easy to do so. But we have had some office people in place for decades and they all know me as well because I have been around so long too. On the other hand, it took me forever to get my training records straight, as has been noted here. A lot of that came from National having old records that had bee grandfathered somehow earlier, then sort of disappeared. I solved it by proving the new numbers were covered or exceeded by old course descriptions and numbers. Also took me a half dozen tries to get NESA records straight, mostly due to living in one spot with still active council, and having Eagled in a council that went belly up in the seventies. Guess what I am saying mostly is that too often we make a minor inconvenience into these huge issues that really do not need to stress us as much as we sometimes allow them to. I too am hoping they will soon find a way to stop asking for new applications for changes within a unit or the council. We should have one number that follows us everywhere and that can be added to a new position without added paper. Will it happen in my lifetime? One can hope.

You know, sometimes I wonder about the strange things complained about. Paperwork for advancements has been required for years, but some councils did not monitor things well. Yes, there are units that have been known to hand out ranks and merit badges not actually earned. All those ranks and badges have to be on record for the Eagle check, and that means from Scout on up. Scouts are given verification cards if their unit is doing what they should; it has the date and leader's signature. Parents can bring that, or they can politely request a record check in the office. There really is a valid reason for paperwork and certain rules. Storing unearned items is not supposed to be done in order to try and keep invalid advancements from occurring and in some cases to control restricted items properly. As far as the eBay comment went, that is very real. It really hit the breaking point at the centennial period when some councils were letting anyone buy the supposedly limited items, as well as the specially designed rank patches and so on, and selling them in quantity. These began to show up on eBay for very large profits to collectors that did not have access or whose councils perhaps actually followed the rules. One seller somehow got hold of even Distinguished Eagle kits and Silver Beavers. So, National finally started cracking down on the situation and it is now a lot tighter. But, what is the big deal with making sure a parent or someone does not simply buy something pretty or unearned to brag about? It is pretty likely that it can be easily verified in the main office, as noted above.

Well..................

Guess I will need to start CCing someone if I do not have a parental email; though most of my emails for scouts are through parents anyway, until they are over 15 or so. But, since half the emails sent to troop members appear to be ignored or read after the fact, it makes little difference. Now texting is a problem for me, as I still have just a simple phone without a keyboard, and it takes me forever to text stuff if it is needed. So most of my responses are "thx" or "yes or no"; whatever will get the message with the least effort. I also cannot bring myself to learn and use most of the shortcuts; at times I only get half what someone sends me by text, as I do not know the lingo.

I came to this thread hoping to find new recipes for dutch oven brats, special to scouting activities. Why would I ever think a Scout could be impolite or worse?

While it may not be worth the fight, schools MUST give equal access to facility use, including BSA. That issue hit the courts a number of years ago. But they put you in an awkward position when you challenge them and then they ban all groups equally. Of course, we also have administrators that make their own rules for "their" school; and they generally are not challenged, even when maybe it should be.

This short thread is a microcosm of what we see on the net, especially FB and uncontrolled boards. Something is upsetting, annoying, or simply disagreeable to someone and they post their comments, but generally out of context, and often without the link to the source. Various friends and acquaintences see the post and jump to their own conclusions, again without context. If the post does contain a link, many will not read that, so they still do not have the more complete picture. Finally, few will pursue the background and possible responses to those nearest, but rather simply paint the institution or group with that wonderful broad condemnation brush. Meanwhile the really ignorant post derogatory and vicious comments, often somehow making their personal scape goat somehow responsible. In this case, I posted almost immediately a link to the greater student group leadership and the school, and their response. But few bothered to take note until it finally showed up on the net. But even then, some of the "news" links skewed it to their own purposes. And too many sheep simply follow along, eventually evolving to lemmings. And we all know what their final act may be.

In reality not a popular opinion there. If you read the FB posts, most students are appalled. And the greater student government group is voting to likely veto the thing. http://news.uci.edu/briefs/campus-statement-on-flying-the-american-flag/

While I will admit we have a big share of the kooks in the world, I think you may be painting with a bit too broad a brush. If you throw out the Bay area, and parts of L.A. you will likely find people remarkably "normal".

How many are you getting?

These misguided individuals are being brought up short by their peers. The larger student organization has brought it up for official veto. It appears that actually will be the case by tomorrow. Still, it certainly makes you wonder about their reasoning abilities.

Think the photo to which I referred earlier may have been from last year, as they posted some from previous years too on the Report items on FB and in Scouting. Just went through the whole six days now posted, and there are none with Mr. Obama that I noted.

There is at least one photo that appears to have the President in it; but where I cannot tell.

Most boys NOT in cubs join because someone, already a scout, talks about how much FUN they had at such and such. The uniform is secondary in that regard; it was the activity itself that brought interest and a "can I come next time" response. In our local county paper today is an article about the annual Scouting for Food, and it includes a couple of photos. They look like scouts very often do, especially when actually doing physical stuff, but also when just doing. http://venturacountystar.ca.newsmemory.com/?token=64115810c31f66fa3996f1505a48e59a_54f896dd_fdf02f Trouble is how hard it is go get these kind of things even in the paper, especially the ones that are primary in an area.

Not sure how this has anything to do with Scouting, or Cubs. Guess I should remember to read the actual link too; then I would not ask dumb questions as often.