skeptic

Okay, here is the answer to the most recent sniping. Moosetracker posted immediately after Pack's post at 8:11AM. The post attributed to Pack was from the first paragraph of the second post and was taken out of context. Moose was simply attempting to answer Pack's question. So, hopefully we can put this at rest soon. packsaddle Posted Today, 08:11 AM Why do they exclude LDS? Very Next Post by moostracker shown below: moosetracker Posted Today, 08:38 AM Last I knew, they would happily accept LDS youth, but LDS adults could not be leaders... They don't consider them true Christians because they don't believe in the holy trinity, there was mention of them following not only the Bible but also the "Book of Mormons" that make them not true Christians.. Trails life will take youth from all denominations but they will only accept true Christians as Adult Leaders..

As one of those volunteer leaders, almost 45 years now, I have grown very tired of the constant media circus that distracts from my just doing Scouting. If this lessens that chaos and clamor, I am all for it. As I have noted many times, this is really nothing new. It is just something no one paid much attention to before around 1990, as the "local option" was already in force with little interference beyond the local areas. The difference is the media and ability of crazies to interject panic and paranoia into the issue, as well as the political machines. Meanwhile, the general public are turtles hiding in their shells until something forces them out. IF you truly value the basic tenets of Scouting and want to make it available, then you stay and work it and simply do your best to keep the stupidity and yellow press out of it if possible.

Would you not have kept copies of ALL your forms turned into the council? While our council does a pretty good job with paper, getting it filed with the unit info fairly quickly, seldom have I had to dig through them, as most of the time I have had my own copies. The council keeps files up front for about 7 years, then stores them; but they are still available way back in most cases, especially basic charter info. Today, even if you do still do paper copies, it should be filed with on-line advancement with simply a print out. Many of the problems and issues on these threads are as much the fault of the units and volunteers as it may be the office staffs.

A "Trail Life" lawyer trying to frighten established CO's with worst case scenario's with from conjecture and personal opinion. The fact, as noted above, that he is not a Constitutional Law expert adds to this concern. By doing this, he very likely hopes to scare some to come over to "Trail Life".

"I have had so many conversations or email exchanges with students in the last few years wherein I anger them by indicating that simply saying, "This is my opinion" does not preclude a connected statement from being dead wrong. It still baffles me that some feel those four words somehow give them carte blanche to spout batshit oratory or prose. And it really scares me that some of those students think education that challenges their ideas is equivalent to an attack on their beliefs." -- Mick Cullen, Professor in the Social Science department at College of Lake County, Grayslake, IL Found the above excerpted statement more on target than I would like, especially this; And it really scares me that some of those students think education that challenges their ideas is equivalent to an attack on their beliefs." The overall comment seems very reflective of some of the issues we have debated here over the past months. The outtake in blue though struck me as particularly apropos to a lot of our group's recent dialogues.

Surely do not see where these comments about not being welcome are coming from in relation to Terry's post. The real world intruded on our lives along while back, and learning to adapt was another skill B.P. encouraged. If we are truly to be a brotherhood, then we need to accept that others may have different feelings or reactions to things and simply allow them to do so without taking personal affront. We can do this without letting our guard down for the rare stepping over the line we may encounter.

In today's litigious culture, it is likely some of these decisions are simply CYA related. While we may not agree, from the National perspective, there could be enough concern to err on the side of caution. Of course, we are generally not privy to details in these situations, as should be the case.

Previously, we could choose to block posts from some. I cannot find this option anymore. Is it here someplace? Thanks.

"The Ineligible Volunteer files were established in the 1920s, with "Perversion" being one of the main categories. You all refer to a switch in the 80s without ever linking to anything (yet you in particular love to pointedly ask for citations) indicating a new turn to ban homosexuals. One of the few ways to get in that card catalogue was simply being gay, which is one reason BSA never made those files public. If BSA allowed gay leaders before the 1980s, why did they begin filing homosexuals as "Ineligible Volunteers - Perversion" 60 years prior?" The truth is that few leaders if homosexual would let that information become general knowledge clear up to the early seventies, when the Gay lobby began to push and politicize their agenda. But, if one did become known, it would have been dealt with locally, and they likely ended up in the files. The files themselves were an anomaly, even today. "Don't talk about it, sweep it under the carpet, look the other way", was the normal response into the seventies; and now that almost universal public and private response is being used to bludgeon BSA due to the fact they actually tried to do "something". What is now being called "local option" was the general rule almost from the beginning; and going back to it will certainly be better than what we have now.

Once again, we have the few that seem to feel that somehow allowing "COR" to make the leadership decision will trespass on their unit that may not agree with the other's choices. Makes no sense at all. YP, adhered to, should continue to eliminate most any district or council interactions that might be of concern. Basically, it just means going back to what was the status quo prior to the wave making that began in the late 80's. As noted, there are those that will never accept any decision that does not cater to THEM. Little can be done for those few, as they will always be unhappy. I for one will welcome hopefully a lot less having to fend off idiots with political or overtly religious opinions about the organization. I do hope that the militant agitators for the LGBT will have far less support from the general public for not accepting logical and fair rules, as no longer will they not have the opportunity within the broader BSA. Even in the church supported units, there are half or more that will have no issue at all as long as the prospective leader is otherwise eligible. And if the agitators choose to challenge the decision by trying to join a unit that does not allow them, then they should be stopped by the legal system as having no standing, since they can apply elsewhere, either in an non religious sponsor or one of the other groups that sponsor. Those on here that have already screamed we will leave; I wish you well, though I cannot help but question your decision a bit.

Wow. Talk about idiocy.

Thanks; I actually reviewed that report for this. What I hope to do is set up an auto message to remind me or another unit member "x" days ahead. Sometimes get lax on reviews on my own; old age you know.

Just had one of my current leaders show up on my training report as expired on YP. Just happened 2 days ago. I am going to look into making our own aging report to warn us a couple months out, though would be great if we got a message from National or local councils. Not holding my breath on that; just glad I was able to see it at all. Turning it over to my computer gurus.

Numbers of other updates, additions, and clarifications. Six total nights of camping for FC; sheetbend is now required for FC; actually demonstrating using clove hitch and timber hitches for each lashing, and making the device as well; using a GPS as well as compass; choking added to tenderfoot FA; specifying discussion of 4 laws for each rank, but must be different each time, so cover all of them; Star reviews the parent guide again that is needed to join; FC adds boat descriptions and their oars or paddles; Life service to include minimum 3 hours of conservation; other minor changes; and additional specific detail added to most of the requirements so can be far less conjecture. They also have officially made Scout a rank, and it has double the original joining requirements, many of which were in Tenderfoot before. Time will tell, but to me, they seem to be tacitly making advancement at the lower end far more challenging, which is a good thing.

While there really are many inefficiencies in council offices and most any office, really, it is not completely their fault. Much of the problem is plain carelessness and lack of completeness on the part of the volunteers. The paperwork may be tedious, but it is part of the process and normally flows fairly well when properly done to start with. And much of the nightmare is caused by our litigious society and tendency to take the easy way out if we can. Missing required info, especially complete names, phones, and signatures will always foul it up. Over the years I have had numerous occasions of having to return an application or other form to the parent or other individuals. They too often seem to think they only have to furnish the parts they want to, or info that they cannot remember, so it is left off. Before it is turned in, someone should carefully review it and try to assure it is less likely to be kicked back. When you have issues, you at least can be fairly sure it is not being caused in part by you or your other leaders. Then also try to not lose it with the staff, especially the office people that are generally overloaded. Treat them well, and they are more likely to find a faster solution.

Not on the White House lawn, but on the Mall. The 37 Jamboree was there. Few more than 50 scouts; was 25-30K if I remember.

What does not appear to be clear is if this was actually ever brought to the council's attention way back then. And, as noted, very convenient that the alleged abuser died prior to the claim. Was this dredged up by a lawyer from the "files"?

So, it is the beginning of prime summer camp and high adventure season. Where, when, what is unique or a major challenge, what might be new. My unit goes to a week at Camp 3-Falls in Lockwood Valley in mid July; http://campthreefalls.blogspot.com/. About 20 miles off the 5 Freeway near Gorman, it is easily accessible from the L.A. area and Kern County. It is the more remote of the two camps in Ventura County Council. This year is its 82nd year. Our troop goes back to its start and before, even having its own site for the first couple of decades or so. Capacity is about 150 to 175, and the facility has a dining hall, health lodge, trading post and office, staff cabins, a nature lodge, and a chapel overlooking the camp and valley. It is at 5700 feet on the east side of the transverse ranges, and has easy access to Mount Pinos at close to 9000 feet, above Frazier Park, the nearest town. While it is one of the smaller camps in Southern California, it has a continuing strong program, even with the loss of our reservoir lake due to the drought. It has a three sided climbing tower that includes a mid level and top rappelling face, with a height of 57 feet; it also has a low scramble wall. Ranges include ten position rifle, archery, shotgun and black powder. While boating is on hiatus until we get water again for the reservoir, the pool hosts all the water activities common to most camps, and also teaches special training to leaders. It continues to develop STEM, currently having Space Exploration, Geocaching, Astronomy, and photography. Pottery is the most recently added to the crafts area. Welding is now in its third year, and we are privileged to have Jack Compton, one of the developers of the badge, as the counselor. We also have fire safety, which includes the local fire department interaction, as well as the Forest Service. Trail to First Class is one of the best such programs in any California camp; they DO NOT sign off scouts, but only keep track of areas covered, expecting the troop to review and finalize. They do the second class cooking requirements one evening as part of the program, from planning to cooking, to cleanup. Merit badges only have four sessions, allowing more time in the groups, as well as afternoon free time. Formal flags occur in the morning before breakfast and evening before dinner, and include flagpoles for troop flags from each campsite. The most unique part of the camp is the Fort, an authentic one quarter scale rendezvous fort circa 1850. Three teepees are pitched outside the fort, which acts as the center of frontier activities that include tomahawks, branding, metal work and blacksmithing, Indian Lore, bull whip, and is the home for older boy programs and wilderness survival. The senior scout challenge, which has no merit badges per se (though mountain biking is part of it, so can apply there) includes backpacking to the back side of Mt. Pinos, then seeing sunrise from the peak before biking back down to the camp. On the last night of camp, a shredded beef barbecue is held, the beef buried in the morning for slow cooking outside the fort, and the special camp root beer is brewed. Basic awards are handed out at the campfire bowl there, mostly after dinner, and it is closed with a patriotic retirement of flag(s), which includes recognition of veterans that may be in the audience or staff. They also have various hikes, mountain biking, and of course the normal nature and basic skills such as First Aid, Pioneering, and Orienteering. Camp wide games, a scout leader splash contest, a couple of special challenge courses, and 3 campfires are part of the schedule. They also have two nights of night climbing on the tower with floods and generational music, and a cantina night with board games and snacks. A number of leader training courses also are offered, including one week of the entire course, as the instructor brings his troop that week. More or less standard platform tenting in sites with portable outhouses, water and washing center, tables, flagpole, and shade covers in camps with little natural shade. Fires are not permitted other than in the two camp fire bowls, and cooking can be done in a central barbecue and dutch oven center next to the assembly area. The camp is also open for off season activities from scouts and other groups; it also includes three winter camp sessions in mid winter. This summer will see the opening of new showers to replace those build in the 70's, though likely will not be ready for actual camp. Sea B's have set up temporary showers while the construction continues. If anyone reading this is interested, you can see the plans here; http://us10.campaign-archive2.com/?u=614cfabc9fca1fe50e97ffdbe&id=74027a8c7b&e=c7027d9175. Look forward to reading about some others, as well as possible special trips and such.

New world order: "Mind your own business, and leave others alone as long as they are doing you no REAL harm".

Took scouts on a short day hike to a local swimming spot on a nearby river. We had about 2 hours of almost no company. Floated on my back watching blue damsel flies, red and blackish dragon flies in pairs, swallows swooping for insects, saw a fairly large turtle (for our area), lots of wild flowers still, a loud frog, and simply peace. When a large contingent of families showed with many under ten kids, I was please with my boys' giving them room and letting the parents know where deeper spots were, or rough bottom. Had to dowse a small campfire still smoking made by fishermen that left when we came (mentioned the fire to them, and they sort of put sand on it), along with picking up beer containers. Only two of them, so not too bad. Overall, just a relaxing short hike and refreshing float with scouts being scouts, and families letting kids be kids.

Actually, in regard to surveys as to lost members, it is a part of the on-line recharter process. But, how many accurate answers they may receive in the section "Why did they leave?" on the recharter paperwork is a big question for sure. Some of the older charter info I have seen had similar surveys, but many times they were left completely blank, even then.

Our council had paper files going back about 10 years available for troops and such; then they were archived, but kept. We still have rosters and charter paperwork dating to the start of the council in 1921, which I spent weeks organizing a number of years back while searching for other things. Found lone scout registrations, Rover unit charters with cards attached, and lists of members for all the charters going all the way back. I was able to verify my unit membership through them and have copies of them all in my own archives. Every once in a while I check to make sure they are still there; think I may need to go into them and straighten them out some again, as they have been dug through a few times since I did it. Scouts were not registered as anything but First Class with merit badges until the war years. So, it is hard to determine that data. After about 1943 they are showing ranks all the way to Eagle on recharter rosters. It can be both tedious and fascinating to go through these things. But I guess we are more fortunate than other councils in actually had someone with the foresight to save them.

This is the kind of publicity that grabs; but it is seldom noted outside the actual Scouting publications, even though it was probably published widely in many periodicals. http://scoutingnewsroom.org/blog/eagle-scout-with-an-edge-inside-nitro-circus-rider-wake-schepman/

It appears that Greenbar Bill has been reinstated in the hierarchy; they may actually listen sometimes? http://scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/get-to-know-the-bsas-founding-fathers/

You mean I cannot just hang a rock from a tree?