skeptic

As Stosh says, the 73 titles of EBL are interesting. Some of them are actual classics on their own like Ben Hur, Call of the Wild, Treasure Island, and Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. Others are just good stories for youth from the time, or things of interest such as the BSA Handbook, or Seton and Beard titles. One that I have that is not actually in the official list, but has a forward by Franklin Mathews, the Chief Librarian of BSA at the time, is a collection of verse. Then there are the numerous books of actual adventures of Scouts, the best known being 3 Boy Scouts in Africa which was published in a number of languages and whose main author recently passed away in N.C. about a year after finally being awarded the DEA. He also did a book on Grizzlies in Alaska while there in a Scouting connection. Lots of other interesting items in my collection, some with only peripheral Scouting connections, others pretty much all Scouting. A more recent book is about the Hmong scouts in the Bay area. Also are a few titles from other Scouting groups, such as My Hike about 3 Brazillian senior scouts that tried to hike from Rio to N.Y.. Only one completed the hike, while another went off the trail ill, and one actually died. Another one is A Fliver to Cambodia written by 3 senior scouts from France who start from Paris in a Model T and take it to Cambodia by land and sea, dismantling it and putting it back together more than once in order to transport it over steep mountains in the high country of Asia. They complete the trip and are greeted by Cambodian scouts and are French celebrities for a time. One other that I found fascinating is Hobnails to Heather about a group of Eagles from the U.S. that go to Scotland and hike the highlands, visiting with local scout groups and absorbing the culture. All of my copies of the latter items are firsts, but I may have to make due with a reprint of the Lost on A Mountain In Maine about a scout who was just that and attributed his survival to his Scouting skills. Had a chance years back to get a first at a respectable price, and for some reason passed. Now, they show up on occasion, but are sort of pricey. I am curious if some of the recent Eagles that have gone on scientific expeditions may write something, like Siple and Chapelle. National has instituted a program that is actively recruiting older scouts for such expeditions and involvement in research projects. Of course, talking about Scouting stories, we should not forget Onward for God and My Country; retitled Follow Me Boys after the movie, Be Prepared, Mr Scoutmaster, Scouts to the Rescue with Jackie Cooper, as well as lesser know oddball movie titles that capitalized on the popularity of the program in the thirties. Lots more books that discuss issues, or aspects of the program, most recently a number of Eagle Scout related books being written. Searches will find much more out there, some which is just bad, and some that is valid research or study of Scouting as a cultural phenomena.

I have always made the comparison of the Law with the 10 commandments in that while the Commandments are telling us what we should strive to NOT do, in relation to our interactions with the greater world around us, while the Law, with its 12 points, assumes that we ARE certain things within the bounds of common sense and societal and religious interaction. There is always more than one way to interpret the meanings of philosophical tenets dependent on numerous interactions and situations. In relation to "obedient", the same dictum applies as to an order in rare instances in the military or similar dogmatic restrictive environments. IF, the order or expectation is recognizably against greater good or societal norms, then you may possibly or rightfully decide to NOT obey. That being said, your judgment should be made with strong supportive facts or opinion which you should share before your final decision. But, these types of occurrences should be rare. Few, even those not integral to the Scouting movement would seriously deny that the Oath and Law are very good and viable guidelines for a civil society. As most know, one of the symbolic explanations of the Universal Symbol is that it was at the point of the compass needle and that Scouting precepts could be a compass for the voyage through life. One of my biggest frustrations is that too often we are not intellectually or emotionally flexible enough to accept that there are few if any "absolutes" in life other than its finality. Our constant challenge is to not let our personal opinion be so static that we cannot see other possibilities. By the same token, if we are to live in a cooperative world society, we do need to agree that our "right" to personal opinion and action stops as soon as it trespasses on similar territory of another, or negatively affects the greater environment. All just opinion and reflection of an old guy who tries to be fair within his life and interactions.

I remember the last line as "Out West in Region 12". Still sing it just for fun for the boys, who think I am crazy in most cases. Have also been told that it was banned because it has a "suggestive" line in it. Not that I really care about that foolishness. We used to have alot of really silly ditties when I was a Scout in the 50's. I wish I was a little striped skunk, striped skunk repeat I'd climb up in the trees and perfume all the leaves, Oh, I wish I was a little striped skunk. I wish I was a little bottle of pop, repeat. I'd go down with a burp and come up with a slurp Oh I wish I was a little bottle of pop. (Included sound effects of course.) Other similar variants, some which today would be likely banned as suggestive too. We old people must have been really awful, rude kids.

It also was normally done by the TLC or PLC, choose your dated acronym. Leadership skill of major import: learn how to fairly evaluate success or failure of other scouts by peer review.

Yep; we cannot accurately make comparisons across decades of change in society. Not only are there far more things to do for youth and simply distractions, but we also have more two-earner families, more financial stress for lower income families, and a highly litigious environment that puts many dampers on activities once easily done with little thought. While many of the restraints are important, others are over-kill that simply scare people and make many choose other less challenging and "dangerous" activity. As I keep repeating. We have a great program which works well if we make the local efforts to make it happen and listen to the scouts and try and let them lead. And, believe it or not, sometimes introducing what may seem an archaic activity or game sometimes really excites them and will lead to related activity. In our troop/pack/(possibly crew and GS group soon) we are often like a small family that really inter-connects. Local, unit focus works if you actually let it.

Cambridgeskip makes a good historical note regarding women and our society. What is often lost in these discussions is the fact that there have always been females involved in successful cultures. Anthropologists have verified that women were often the backbone of earlier civilizations, possibly because of the special connection of mother and child, no matter the gender. A number of our Native American cultures have traditions of matriarchal control that silently was the glue that held them together. We all know of women, and girls as well, that far exceed the men and boys in almost all areas of achievement. So, why can't we, as a theoretically honest organization, simply focus on the larger picture and work for the youth, and in extension a better society, with flexibility that fits the each unique local group as needed and wanted "by them"? But I am old; what do I know?

I think we simply need to quit screaming about everything that we may not agree with that we have little control over and pay attention to our own units and local programs in general. Afterall, most of us are in the trenches where the real program lives and dies. Adjust and deal with issues if they actually happen, rather than complaining about the obviously PC stuff we must navigate around and through. It is not just in Scouting that we encounter these things. Few of the scouts themselves care about anything but whether or not they are having fun, making friends, and some maybe learning new stuff. JMO of course.

Maybe they already voted. After all, a number of DES recipients are up for office or already approved.

HONORARY OFFICERS Section 9. Honorary President and Vice Presidents Clause 1. The President of the United States may, during term of office, be elected to be the Honorary President of the Boy Scouts of America. In addition, living former Presidents of the United States and other citizens who have rendered distinguished service to our country through work for young people may be elected to be honorary vice presidents. Such election shall be by the Executive Board upon the recommendation of the Nominating Committee for such terms as the Executive Board shall specify.

As an addition to this discussion, I also hope National may actually revise these requirements in other areas too. The individuals they offer for reports is a very short list, and some are not nearly as important as some not there. That includes Hillcourt of course, but in my opinion, should include Rockwell and maybe Cassari as well, though the earlier historical element is far stronger with Rockwell. Another left out is Edgar Robinson who really was responsible for West coming over and continued his support even though he was a major YMCA official. I add these three to their choices when we meet, just in case. Of course, other than taking electives out of play a bit, I would feel good having Scouting Heritage as another required one, as it simply seems to me that understanding the history is really important.

Here is the full requirement info: 4. Do ONE of the following: a. Attend either a BSA national jamboree, OR world Scout jamboree, OR a national BSA high-adventure base. While there, keep a journal documenting your day-to-day experiences. Upon your return, report to your counselor what you did, saw, and learned. You may include photos, brochures, and other documents in your report. b. Write or visit the National Scouting Museum in Irving, Texas.* Obtain information about this facility. Give a short report on what you think the role of this museum is in the Scouting program. c. Visit an exhibit of Scouting memorabilia or a local museum with a Scouting history gallery, OR (with your parent's permission and counselor's approval) visit with someone in your council who is recognized as a dedicated Scouting historian or memorabilia collector. Learn what you can about the history of Boy Scouting. Give a short report to your counselor on what you saw and learned. If you visited the BSA’s national traveling tour, Adventure Base 100, in 2010, you may use this experience to fulfill requirement 4b. As a counselor, I actually encourage option "c", though obviously, the others are the more common used. Being a historian of sorts on Scouting, I guess I fit that category for part "C", and I try to put on a couple of displays a year for council events, usually the Annual Meeting and the Eagle Dinner, though will do others if asked and it fits. I also have so much at my house, that we could fulfill that with a visit to me. But, having a troop approaching its centennial if 4 years, and that meets in the same place since the 30's also is useful. Our Scout rooms are mini museums anyway, especially since I was told to clean some stuff out by SWMBO, and it is now on shelves in the rooms. From my own perspective, we too often make the exact reading of requirements too important. They usually have some flexibility, and hopefully, you have a counselor that will find workarounds should they be necessary.

It really makes little difference, but wondered why apparently my posts do not have these arrows? Just curious. Thanks.

Once more I will attempt to add my concern in regard to the Scouting element and its tenets in general. We call, on the unit level, living up to the tenets as best we can, living the Scout Spirit. My observations in general over the past few years is that these politicians and "important players" that like to note their Scouting connections, including having earned Eagle, too often do not demonstrate Scout Spirit. Unfortunately, that seems to fit the general pattern of success for most of them, if stepping on others and taking advantage is termed success. And, as far as Scouting is concerned, the records of many of these same individuals seems to show less than serious concern for the environment and the outdoor pillars of Scouting. Just my own opinion of course, but one developed over decades.

Actually, much of Seton's work, especially that on wolves of Canada, is still a good resource today. His detailed art work on the wolves is some of the most accurate there is and was accomplished by serious field studies.

Interesting. Brings to mind a comment made to me about my less than automaton group of scouts at the rededication of Mt. Baden Powell years ago. B.P. III was there for the ceremony, and we had the opportunity to meet and speak with him. One of my boys interrupted me briefly with something related to them goofing around a bit nearby, and I apologized to B.P.. His response was that my scouts were doing what his grandfather would have liked, basically having fun and camaraderie, while it appeared a number of other groups were very bored and more military like in their demeanor. And you will find comments similar by BP himself in many of his writings.

IF I understand the advancement accounting system, once the rank is officially granted, which is the time of the board completion and approval, then it is in effect. I suppose if there was some really unusual situation that could negate the approval, it could happen, but not just at the whim of a SM or other troop, or even council leader. Certainly, if there was an actual valid concern for some reason, the troop committee would be well served to meet and come up with a plan, which perhaps could lead to a freeze of rank and removal of leadership, and maybe even more severe in extreme cases. But, the event you suggest is simply not valid as described, and if perhaps warranted should still be approved by the committee.

Would agree it has lost its meaning and its aura of mystery. There were limits on how many could be voted in based on rank eligibles and troop size. Ordeals were meaningful, and mostly fair if adults did their job to avoid black balling or hazing. Much was kept out of view of the general public, though was available if people needed info legitimately. Much of the problem it seems to me is related to the larger issue of over protectiveness and nobody should possibly feel bad should they not make the summit of the challenge. I would also submit that there are too many adults that have been ushered into the lodges, again due to changes in the manner of selection, as well as a certain element of you cannot keep me out because it is my right or even I will cause trouble types if you shun me in some way. But would agree that there is far less interest by the average scouts. Our lodge has not had a real dance team in decades, and most ceremonies are read, rather than learned. Lots of challenges, but some lodges find a way if the right people get involved. There are many challenges for the program nationwide, but its image is a bit better locally than a decade ago, and there again are some coming back that left.

Found it encouraging, but still too early to judge. Are they going to force Scoutbook on us? If so, do we get it free at a basic level with registration? And if so, does that mean they will up the cost again? Are they finally going to find a way to keep one ID for a volunteer or youth member? Once assigned, there seems to be no reason that ID would not simply stay with you, even when you become an adult. Surely would make tracking older records easier. And, like we have one person on our charter that chooses to stay there, even though moved and is active elsewhere. She has to register twice, and sends me verification of YP in the other council. Have asked for feedback from one of our local Tech savvy leaders, who also is on the regional level. But, hopefully moving the right way?

Time for the infamous pie discussion????

You let the scouts decide, but with a bit of advice and supervision. As far as flags go, it is simple enough; just do not salute, but rather stand properly at attention when required and put hands over their hearts.

Just share this on FB; thanks.

Isn't it amazing how often just adhering to the Scout Law in some point(s) can solve the issue? Let's see; Kind, Courteous, Friendly, Clean all come to mind in this thread.

One of the things I do not believe has ever been thrown around here is National having a program to help maintain council level camping facilities that continue to struggle with inflation and the normal effects of time. Every year we see more camps lost, mostly due to local inability to meet depreciation issues and changing health and safety codes. If the outdoor program and camping are to be viable on the local levels of the councils, then it seems imperative to develop a method to help resolve these issues. I know that while we have numerous places to do great outdoor stuff, the local fees for use continue to creep higher, and the type of people outside the program encountered continues to erode in basic awareness of common courtesies and protection of the facilities. Having a council owned property that can be used economically and without huge transportation expenses is important. With that in mind, I really would like National to seriously look at putting together something on their level that could support these functions through the bigger donors they have access to. If that were to be developed we might very well see an upsurge in the use of local camps due to improvements being done that often have been put off to the detriment of the facilities and the enjoyment of the camps, making them into that downward spiral of deterioration. If we want to keep Scouting as a viable option for the financially challenges areas of the country, then we need to find a way to help them keep viable outdoor options as affordable as possible, but still with the level of adventure and fun that is found at higher priced places. Related to this would also be a partial solution to the swinging door executives that is more and more common; again in the less prosperous and smaller councils. In many areas of the country, the cost of living is seriously out of control. Starting executive salaries are fairly low, especially with the realities of the job. In our council in So Cal, I have seen a dozen or more good executives forced to thrown in the towel simply because they could not afford to live here. A program to supplement cost of living for younger executives in these councils might allow a greater level of success and simply enough time on the job to develop their skills. I suppose that basically, I would like to see National shift a higher level of focus onto the local levels. It is at the local level that the greater program will live or die.

Stosh; Did go back and finally found the mention of the autism and such. But, I still cannot figure out how this really has anything to do with it, other than an excuse to find fault. Everybody at this point needs to take a deep breath. Overreactions are seldom the best response. Surely simply living the intent of the law should be sufficient, especially related to kind, friendly, courteous, and maybe cheerful too. It certainly is not something that needs to be on a National level of discussion. So, I will not post any more regarding it, as I hope my thoughts are clear enough. Thanks.