skeptic

It does not appear to have been any real issue in the larger World Scouting. Adolescent youth are just that, and a coed unit is no more a real problem than simply having classes together or even going to Sunday school. It is normal life for youth, and the coed part is NOT the problem, if there is one. It is poor supervision and lack of parental involvement to teach right and wrong. JMHO of course.

Doing what is a best decision based on realities is what should be the focus. That reality is that allowing Coed will allow units that have recruiting issues more leeway and ultimately likely simply become the norm. One gender units can still function and carry on as their youth choose. The program is NOT for adults directly, only as mentors and advisors. Ultimately it is how well the basic program is allowed, using the patrol method and letting the youth do it with oversight for safety and adherence to YP.

Nothing new, only that maybe they are finally listening. But trial is not really needed in my view, as it is obviously the best option for small units already, allowing them to officially do it. We all are aware it is already a silent choice for many.

As I noted earlier, the old tour permit specifically noted no convoying or caravaning. It was on the permit someplace and had to be noted and signed. But, basically, as noted here everyone should know where they are going in case they get lost. Meet up places for head count is a good idea. Most importantly have some sort of connection other than vision to the others.

While I seldom drive any distance now, and try to stay off the freeway too, when I do, I am often considered an annoyance, or worse by others. I obey speed limits and when I am on the freeway, I try to not hinder others, but do adhere to that speed. If I am on cruise at the max limit and in the center, for the most part, I will not move over just so someone else can speed, especially when moving would then interfere with my safety. The right lane is the most difficult because it is the entry and exit lane most of the time. I will move to it when light traffic and not dangerous. And I also have finally accepted the fact that if, safe for me, I can move and let the scofflaws go, then return. My father impressed defensive driving and common sense, and I can truthfully claim no moving violations in almost 65 years of driving. Safety, courtesy, and obey the laws.

One of the reasons I was surprised to have them eliminate the filing of the Tour Permit. That was another check to try and make sure rules were followed, as the permit had them and also included verifications of insurance and so on.

Repetitive ad infinitem; the problem was not "unique" to scouting. It was a common issue of society then, as well as, sadly today. It is something somehow dark in some people and part of that darker human nature, if you will. But, again, the date on this article shows that the file was public very early on, so it was not hidden. Horse is dead as far as that part goes.

Simply proof that the IV files were known early on, and that they were not covering them up. The bankruptcy and lawsuits are interrelated. Not news of course.

I have to work on finding this complete article, as I refuse to subscribe to get past the barrier. I have two search sites to go to, so maybe will find it. Meanwhile, I thought it was interesting to note. Take a look and share if you find detail before I do. SUBSCRIBE FOR $1/WEEK Account Boy Scouts' 'Red Flag List' Bars Undesirables, Col. Roosevelt Says; ' We Want to Preserve Fineness,' He Tells Jubilee Session in Chicago -- Rabbi Asserts We Must Choose Between Scouts and Hoodlums -- President Roosevelt Is Again Honored. Share full article Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES. May 18, 1935 Credit...The New York Times Archives See the article in its original context from May 18, 1935, Page 1Buy Reprints New York Times subscribers* enjoy full access to TimesMachine—view over 150 years of New York Times journalism, as it originally appeared. SUBSCRIBE *Does not include Crossword-only or Cooking-only subscribers. Full text is unavailable for this digitized archive article. Subscribers may view the full text of this article in its original form through TimesMachine. CHICAGO, May 17. -- Disclosure that the Boy Scouts of America maintain a "red flag list" of persons regarded as undesirable influences on youth was made by Colonel Theodore Roosevelt today before the twenty-fifth anniversary meeting of the Scouts National Council. VIEW FULL ARTICLE IN TIMESMACHINE »

https://www.mariettatimes.com/news/local-news/2024/03/smith-scouts-become-leaders/ Finding ways to incorporate the community locally might be the best way to redeem the program. My experience with the general public when we do flag and patriotic stuff at the local government center, or on some occasion in the past when hiking, has almost always been supportive. Many have gushed and said they had thought BSA was gone and were really happy for our work and efforts. I suspect this may be far more prominent than the nay sayers will admit. Just my view.

Okay. Interesting, though a bit deep or maybe confusing. Discussions of the Eastern philosophies can be like that. We likely do not want to confuse, but rather, with luck, enjoin them in actual use of their cerebral abilities, then share that with peers and others?

It seems to me that too often being conflict averse leads to conflicts of interest and lack of engagement in life. What do I know? Mine is more in the rearview now.

I have a friend in Virginia whose daughter earned her Gold and who is very active in general in school, soccer, and other things. I asked him his opinion. His response was that the Girl Scouts encourage the girls to be activists. An interesting view from someone that has been involved a long while with them, and and also has a boy tht is now Life.

And another one appears. Now it is the AKC. https://www.aol.com/news/american-kennel-clubs-pedophile-problem-140634396.html Again, it is not just BSA. It is a societal problem, and the focus needs to be far broader. But it will never be completely stopped, as that is not part of the human nature element. "Still no excuse for the mistakes and actual abuse in BSA."

From my reading, I believe that Agnes, BP's sister, was asked, or perhaps assigned, the role of developing a girl group after BP met with a large group of girls at the first International gathering in London. According to the report, the girls told him to his face that girls could and should be scouts, and they made their own group. Eventually, Lady BP of course took over the program more or less as Agnes never really enjoyed it particularly. I continue to find that tale amusing, as most of us may have met a few focused and determined young women.

What can we say, other than good for her. https://richmond.com/opinion/column/hanover-hypocrisy-book-censorship-girl-scout/article_ca2c06be-fde7-11ee-8aea-939bb71a3f14.html

So, while I have stated numerous times that I have no issue with the proven or even likely cases that occurred. But, the context of this discussion continues to rely on mostly unsubstantiated numbers and the theory that the worst proven or validated occurrences are the norm. Yet, as far as we know, most have never gotten beyond the finger pointing. Just as McMartin was surely not the norm for such things, it also ruined a lot of lives with little or no verification. And that has been verified. The real problem I see is that emotion, empathy, and broad brush accusations tend to take the front, and IF someone is one of the proven victims it becomes for them the only reality. Here is a fairly details discussion of this subject. https://psychlaw.net/what-you-need-to-know-about-child-sexual-abuse-claims/ Like anything, it will not necessarily have meaning to the reader, but it does seem to be good reason for caution in all of these cases. Victims or survivors are due their recompense. I agree. But, the exaggerations and vague claims do not. And certainly the lawyers do not deserve the inflated fees. Those on here making scurrilous comments towards me need to take a step back and note I have NEVER said there is not, or was not a problem, nor that it should have attention. We have real victims posting on here, and they are deserving of the full weight of a balancedMin legal settlement. Balance is a factor if the system is really to work. There is no way to ever give enough money to "fix" these atrocities. But the theater of exaggeration should not be allowed to seem the norm. Just an old guy that wants to get beyond this and rebuild. No matter what is done, it will NEVER be foolproof. And that goes for ALL youth serving groups.

"But we do know that one basic prerequisite here is proving one's "connection to scouting". Yes, and many cannot, yet they're still count as "someone" that filed a claim. The lawyers certainly have done little real vetting, that has been noted already. And, if that "real" connection and an actual abuse incident is whown, they are due recompense. Are you expecting apologies from the name collectors and legal manipulators for all the verified false claims?

"We should not expect children to fix adult messes." Sadly, IMHO, that is in a way, exactly what we, as adults are doing by not tending to our societal issues, by non participatory citizenship in regard to finding leaders that can and will do what is needed. I have joked a few times of late with more senior youth that my generation is leaving the mess for their generation to fix. Not the way it should be, oviously.

The kind found by advertising done by legal vultures. Jus t saying.

We have no idea how many of those claims are real. And this link suggests this is also just the point of the iceberg. The tar and feathers is due most likely many schools, the Y as here noted, Boys and Girls clubs, uncounted sports groups, and any other youth group the creeps manage to get into. That is the point. The issue is not just BSA, and indications are that based on membership over many decades, the percentages of proven abuse are low in comparison to many. But, the stats are vague, and more is likely unreported or acknowledged than is known. IF the legal vultures decide to go after the Y, or others, we may see just as large, percentage wise, of an ugly reality of our whole society, and frankly most likely the larger world. That is the only point. There is no excuse for your trauma, but sadly, we can see you are one of too many, and not just with BSA.

https://www.cbalawfirm.com/news/ymca-sexual-abuse/ Just to remind some; the issue is not just one for BSA. Yet, even though this link certainly suggests the Y had just as many issues as BSA, I do not remember seeing any media stories that were tar and feathering them with the intensity of BSA. None of it is okay, but when do we stop somehow making BSA more of a pyria than others?

Thinking a bit more about this thread, I think we are speaking of a variation of answers. Whose success are we perhaps trying to measure? The obvious answer appears to be the success of the youth. But we also can expand our discussion to the success of the adults who mentor the Scouts. And, we also then are reviewing the success of the program, which is variable, depending on the membership involved, and also the actual program in play. Each level and type of program and group may have different points of consideration, depending on how detailed we may choose to get. Ultimately though, we may not really see that measure of success until much later, sometimes even decades. One of the good things about hanging around for a long time is that I have been privileged to have a few past scouts speak directly to me about the positive things they realized, later. We all have heard, or if fortunate have experienced that. But I also have seen some youth fail themselves, and as an extension perhaps, our efforts. And, while we may take that measure from our own perspectives, the youth and even their families may not see the same evidence, positive or negative. The fiasco that has played in the press and in the program is too real, yet when we look at the larger picture, and speak to the majority that went through the program, that tragedy is NOT the true picture. It is a dark spot or shadow that shaded into the overall successful program and lives of a very small percentage of the millions that have walked through. It is the ever present worst element of human nature and society that we allowed to creep in. But it does not negate the overwhelming positives, which reflect the brighter and better parts of human nature and society. As I have now entered into my ninth decade, most of it having some touch of Scouting involved directly or peripherally, I mourn the known "failures", the youth that went down their own dark alleys, and the fine young people lost to things over which I, and we, have little or no control. It still comes down to the foundation on which BP and his many cohorts built it. Scout Spirit, when allowed to function, wins out. Maybe immediately, or maybe a decade later when you meet a youth you thought you lost, and they spend an hour telling you how they finally got it, and say thank you. Try to not dwell on the hard ones you know we lost, as I suspect most of the young people have better perspectives and are better parts of society, ones that in the best world would be running things. JMHO of course.

Ah, just not a simple label. Now we see clearly? Remember, it is against the law to remove some labels, or so it is said. 🙄

Yes might be the answer to both or either. We had a similar incident or two where once it was made clear to someone they were not allowed to work until cleared, other than with other adults they disappeared. Follow the rules and it works most of the time.