skeptic

Good approach to the ongoing issues we face, yet does not suggest giving up. Does stress that we on the ground level have the opportunity to make it better. Also totally agree with his notes on the OA. http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/20/whats-wrong-boy-scouts-goes-deeper-social-issues-cowardice/#.Weo1OC152nI.facebook

Interesting aside to this. Before the local school districts decided actual librarians in the schools were not needed. I used to donate past dated B.L.'s to one of the schools in which a regularly subbed. The librarian at the time was always very appreciative, as the magazine was one of their favorite items for the middle school group. She told me that as many girls read it as boys, maybe more. Now, most of our schools have no on site librarian and the teachers have to absorb that as well. Another example of misplaced priorities, in my view.

Thank you for the clarification. Of course, BP initially turned to his sister, then it went along the line you note. Still, the girl issue, as well as the young boy issue, were dealt with by BP early on. Here in the U.S. we did not get official younger boy programming until the early 30's, though there were attempts at local levels earlier.

Well, I have to state that while I know many councils did not follow through well with the presentations and that the timing was not necessarily ideal, but I did not hear much that I had not already heard over the past few years anyway, especially from parents with girls and often girls themselves. There has been a call for allowing girls for years. In truth, it started at the outset, but it did not have the societal push that exists today. B.P. had to deal with it almost from the start. So he turned to Olave and asked her to come up with something. That something, of course, was the Girl Guides and it eventually folded into the British Scouting program, just as a large percentage of other worldwide Scouting groups have joined the genders in some manner. As I have noted in other posts, this seems to me to be a golden opportunity to run with that, if done right and with open eyes and ears, will be a positive expansion of the program to a much wider group of young people. Naysayers and rigid thinkers will continue, to beat their brows as they peer at the sky. Those that simply have decided that anything from National or professionals automatically is bad will continue to be irrationally obdurate, but those that care about the opportunity to reach more youth will simply work to make the new direction viable and tweak as necessary. I plan on being part of the latter group, even at my advanced tenure.

The actual comments in that regard were read on a FB group for Eagle Scouts, though we have had similar responses on here in regard to earlier changes. But, you are correct that on this particular forum right now, that has not been directly stated, though there is a great deal of angst that seems to me to be overblown and self-centered. But, I did not have to do a project, and I have only been in the program over 53 years, so maybe I am not in a position to judge change effects.

Why are individuals already beating their chests about Eagle. The older youth scouts will not even be implemented for a long while. They will have a great deal of time to hopefully work out many concerns, both real and imagined. And many concerns already breached seem to me to be making a problem where none even exists and simply looking for the negative. This is the attitude that continues to confuse me, especially on a board made up of supposedly logical and proponents fo the basic tenets of Scouting. Maybe a few need to step back a distance and take a few deep breaths. IF you truly are so upset that you would turn in your Eagle, then you likely never really understood the foundation of the program. You certainly have the absolute right to your opinions of course, but the logic behind them is sorely lacking and self-defeating. Personally, I am looking forward to our pack officially expanding within its current family, and the possible addition of new opportunity for the youth of our community.

Now, why do you want to burden all the naysayers with simple logic and actual proof it can work? Your point is exactly what the likely result will be over time and adjustments. Those that are unaware of the cultural changes and vibrations, or choose to ignore them, will continue to bay at the changes and eventually leave or adjust. There is really very little reason the program cannot work, other than an unwillingness to work it and make changes and tweaks as needed on the way. B.P. turned to his wife to deal with the huge demand for girls to be in his program, and they built the Girl Guides which is still prominent there and around the world. Here, Juliette Lowe chose to go off on her own, as she did not like the British plan, nor, from most accounts Olave either. The point is that girls have wanted to do the program in some manner from its inception in England.

Only time will really tell. And this is only the first chapter. We will have the second entry the end of next year with the Scout level. I still simply do not comprehend why so many people that seem rational in other instances get so het up when changes evolve with societal adjustments. BP was never one to ignore changing ideas and norms in society and he recommended flexibility and a broad effort to adjust to complexities in the changing cultural norms of the time. As I have said numerous times. The sky is not falling. Be adults and either decide to find a way to adjust, or live in the past. It is not 1910 anymore, nor is it even 2000. Anybody paying attention would have seen this coming a decade or more ago. Society evolves normally over time, and we can try to stay in our perceived better zone, or we can work within the new program outline to make it as good as we are able to continue to serve the youth for whom we supposedly do this in the first place. While I realize I am living in an area that is not seen as reflective of a broader landscape in our society, that is So Cal, I have not heard all the nasty rumblings that some already are saying is occurring in "their" councils. Frankly, I do not think many actually have their ears to the ground and are actually hearing what goes on around them. They are frozen in their preferred roles and little patch of life, and they are simply going to ignore anything that might disrupt their ideals, even if it is something that has potential to make new advances and extend a great program to the broader field of youth we encounter. Personally, I see the entire motion towards adjusting and accepting these changes as mostly a win. I do hope that the needed tweaks will be recognized and things monitored to see the early indicators of bumps in the road. But, I realized that some of my vintage will not be able to go forward. All I ask is that they keep their objections civil and do not somehow try to sabotage things.

"Gender fluidity". Cannot say I had seen that term before, but it seems to fit in the modern discussions.

In regard to the adult qualifications, I know from experience that on occasion an adult is overqualified in regard to the intent of the OA, but they have family issues that keep them from long term summer camp. The Scout executive of each council has the ability to waive certain requirements in rare cases. But, even though our candidate had more actual nights camping than most other adult candidates, and they were almost all backpacking two and three nights, adding to over 30 days and nights, he had not been able to attend a summer camp. We nominated him anyway with an explanatory letter that mentioned his heavy support of our overall camping and hiking program, including having done all the outdoor training, high adventure training, first aide training with the extra backpacking elements, and worked with other scouts outside our unit on merit badges and also on a couple of general work weekends for the council camp. We submitted it when his son was elected, but he was turned down due to the summer camp missing. His son had done summer camp three times. So, I surely agree that there needs to be some flexibility for adults, with legitimate factors in place. He was finally able to go to summer camp two years later when his job and family schedules changed, and he and his son did the ordeal together then, though his son was already Brotherhood.

While this is true, it is like our the continual statements from many that "we need to get our elected representatives to do their jobs". Many agree, but few have any real answer or are willing to jump in deeply enough. My ready response to most issues is to review how my unit, and maybe district/council can improve, and to attempt to do my small part. As to the political stuff, try and make actual choices based on the best info available, then try to not stress when so often it seems to have little effect.

One less meal out or a half dozen fewer coffees at the fancy houses. Or, for some, one less pack of cigarettes or one less bottle of booze or six-pack of beer or case of soda. Let us get this in perspective. Yes, it may be a bit of a sticking point, but IF the program is worthwhile, we will work around it.

Obliquely related. I know that certain BSA costs, uniforming for adults, gas and travel expense, and mandatory fees, such as the adult registration, are tax deductions. Do the groups with whom the comparison is made also get similar deductions? For most of us the deduction is not large enough to make a tax reduction, especially over a certain age when the personal exemptions are doubled. They did make a difference 15 years ago or more, at least for me.

Ideally, that info would be made directly known to all up front. Since our council adds an insurance fee onto the charter, what is the difference? Is it simply additional, or does it cover something not covered on the national level?

If only because most units have already done budgeting for next year, this is poor timing, as noted already. But, unless we see concrete value back to the unit levels, this is truly poor judgment. And, if we soon read about more increases for National staff member pay, it could push many to serious revolt. If anything, the top 2 or 3 tiers of National staff could take a cut in pay to offset this, and they still would easily be more than sufficiently compensated. Of course, just my opinion, and I am at the level that actually delivers the program, so probably am not well informed or have an opinion that is valued very much.

In response to the lack of success in TLC, I would lay much of that on the last 25 years of doing everything for kids on most levels of activity, including the scheduling "play dates". What the heck is that about? When we were kids we simply played with whomever we chose, though on occasion we may have been kept away from someone by parents for some often "adult judgement" reason. We have focused so much on always succeeding that kids are simply afraid to try anything new because they may not be good at it, or will lose, or will look bad in their parent's eyes or to others. school no longer sees "C's" as acceptable, as that is only average, and average is somehow a mark of poor ability, bad attitude, and lack of effort, even though the definition is such that it simply means you are part of the majority. So, the leadership, especially if it does not have any of the personally confident scouts, will play it safe and fall back on others, hoping the adults will simply figure it all out. That is where we have put our children in many areas of their youth. It has resulted in lack of initiative, fear of failure, fear of acceptance by those they care about, and withdraw from anything challenging.

Being an optimist, pretty much, I would surmise that if given similar situations outside of the Boy Scout environment, the negative issues would be greater, probably far greater. But, Scouts are still youth. And they are still exposed to a wide arena of negative so called role models that fifty years ago, probably even twenty years ago, are questionable. Our expectations of most of our scouts are met more often than not, or at least that has been my experience. You hope for the best and try and use the slips as learning experiences. You will never win them all, though some of the success may never be seen by you, but will pop up later in their more mature years.

Once again, "the sky is falling!!!!" At least wait to see what actually transpires. Who knows, you might actually be surprised. Or, you will end up with multi-gender, but separate by patrol or den. Or even single gender and two units with one sponsor. If you believe the basic standards of BSA are as important to girls as to boys, then there is simply the matter of adjustment. I find it interesting that the matriarchal cultures in many parts of history have been shown to often have been far more successful than the patriarchal ones. Maybe the challenge of being "bested" by a girl might light a fire under some. Or, maybe we will simply continue to "do our best" with the elements of our society with which we are challenged to work. From my reading and occasional observations, the coed crews and ships are often the strongest. Will that be the case in the mid age groups; hard to say. But in classrooms, girls that are willing, push their male peers to do better, even in the lower and middle grades. Each of us has a choice. Work with change, decry the ravages of change, or simply give up. ALL youth are important, and bailing out, for me, is not the best decision. Good luck. Please try and remember the Oath and Law as you respond to the various views.

We continue to act as if somehow BSA is going to be able to overcome the flaws that so dominate in our current society, if only we can make them live by the codes of honor that are the foundation of BSA. It is true that Scouting began as an approach to deal with wayward youth of the nineteenth and early twentieth century. Then there were many issues that have since gone away, or been rendered far less of a problem at least. But, of course, we have continued to have new negative distractions created, many which may seem far worse than those of over a century ago. While they are different, the basic problem is still in the way adults respond, especially those supposedly closest to the youth, or in positions of particular authority or instruction. If you spend much time in our school systems, even the best, it is obvious that far too many students have not learned basic social skills at home, nor do many parents seem to feel obligated to support the needed discipline when their child over steps the school or societal boundaries. We more and more have similar challenges as Scout leaders. But, as "leaders" we must decide how much effort we want to spend on dealing with the recalcitrant scouts and often non-supportive parents. IF we are to succeed more than fail, we have to understand we will never win them all, but also, my experience has shown that many battles I have feared lost, later have proven to have left a spark that germinated into a positive change later in a scout's life, even if they had left the program. Yet, I am particularly bothered by how often today many Scouters(?) no longer set the examples we hope our youth will aspire to based on the Oath and Law. Still, that then is our continued challenge. It is sad that it needs to be pointed out more to the adults today than we might expect. On the other hand, perhaps it has always been this way, only portrayed in a different manner. My father told me once, when I had only been a leader about ten years or less that my frustration with the level of parental involvement was nothing new. He took me back to our time together in my Scouting youth and pointed out how many boys there were and how few parents. So, we work to continue to expose as many youth as we can to what we still consider worthwhile endeavors, while setting our best examples and trying to keep the fun in it at the same time. It does little good to abandon the good, which is still the largest part of the program when run, with the basic tenets as a guide, just because it changes with the fast paced societal confrontations and challenges. I am not yet to the point of giving up, especially since I have reached the point where I have grown scouts reaching out to me for advice with their own children, or telling me how much their time with us meant to them. It is a point of sincere pride that I can honestly point to so many of my past scouts that are doing well in the world, and that a few of those that I was so disappointed at having "lost", have come back twenty years later to tell me how those principles they chafed at or ignored, eventually came to make sense and lit their paths later in life. Now, some of them have their own children in the program, even a few in our troop. On MY HONOR, I will do MY BEST. Hopefully I will continue to find ways to meet that simple challenge and pass the principles on to another generation.

It appears we may be lumping two different approaches here. I have been on the list for various surveys for a number of years, after signing up to get info and surveys. There was no video for me with this survey, and it was not long. So, we are apparently talking about two different surveys. For me though, it is far better to get ahead of this curve if possible. We can be obdurate and kick and scream, or we can find ways to compromise and be even more inclusive, avoiding a lot o legal hassles and perhaps even building a better program over time. There is no reason girls cannot be involved at various levels, as long as the proper planning and safe guards are developed. We may simply arrive at a far more flexible and challenging program with more options and a bigger umbrella. No matter what occurs, we have to avoid as much negative publicity as we can, as well as not be throwing money away in a fruitless fight against the probable outcome. Just an opinion of course. I fully understand that some simply are too stubborn to even try, and others too set to change.

Actually Stosh, it did have something along that line as a couple of the choices. I suppose I should have copied the survey, as it is now gone, and I am not sure I can pull it up again. But, the last few surveys they have sent me have been fairly wide in the response capability. Now whether or not they actually look at the responses not in their preference, I have no idea. At least they appear to be getting a bit in front of the snow ball, rather than waiting for it to just pick them up as it rolls full speed to the final drop off or dead end.

A little bit ago I received a survey asking very specific questions about girls in the program. They first wanted to know my current status, was I Eagle, and level if any in OA. General questions on current offering being adaptable to girls at various ages. Then asked if girls should be allowed, within the same requirements, to earn Eagle and be in OA. It was short and basically to the point.

From my perspective, having worked the food concession register in 2010 at I think was D not too far from the water activities, way too many scouts appeared to not have a good grasp of financial restraint. Most had the bracelets which were reloadable at various locations, and others simply large amounts of cash it seemed. But, near the end, many were going without or begging for loans from those that seemed to have unlimited resources. When I went as a 16 year old in 1960, I had to earn all but the cost of the uniforms, which was about $50 at the time. I had a job before school and I spent a year beating the bushes for odd jobs to earn enough to attend and have spending money. As an ASM in 1985, as well as from my youth experience, it seems to me that those scouts that did have to earn their way were far more appreciative of the experience in most regards. Ultimately, it is what you as a family decide is the best approach. Hopefully it will not be open ended like those that kept adding money to the bracelets. To me that was a mistake.

One of my past scouts who now is in the Pentagon, soon to retire, has a girl scout daughter and a new Lion Cub. He is always playing with numbers and has become interested in comparatives of membership in both types of programs, over the years. Here is a link to his most recent offering. I might try and get him to join the board and share more of this. Meanwhile, it is on his FB feed. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213596853861950&set=a.2400074807544.2139828.1421255328&type=3&theater