skeptic

We continue to act as if somehow BSA is going to be able to overcome the flaws that so dominate in our current society, if only we can make them live by the codes of honor that are the foundation of BSA. It is true that Scouting began as an approach to deal with wayward youth of the nineteenth and early twentieth century. Then there were many issues that have since gone away, or been rendered far less of a problem at least. But, of course, we have continued to have new negative distractions created, many which may seem far worse than those of over a century ago. While they are different, the basic problem is still in the way adults respond, especially those supposedly closest to the youth, or in positions of particular authority or instruction. If you spend much time in our school systems, even the best, it is obvious that far too many students have not learned basic social skills at home, nor do many parents seem to feel obligated to support the needed discipline when their child over steps the school or societal boundaries. We more and more have similar challenges as Scout leaders. But, as "leaders" we must decide how much effort we want to spend on dealing with the recalcitrant scouts and often non-supportive parents. IF we are to succeed more than fail, we have to understand we will never win them all, but also, my experience has shown that many battles I have feared lost, later have proven to have left a spark that germinated into a positive change later in a scout's life, even if they had left the program. Yet, I am particularly bothered by how often today many Scouters(?) no longer set the examples we hope our youth will aspire to based on the Oath and Law. Still, that then is our continued challenge. It is sad that it needs to be pointed out more to the adults today than we might expect. On the other hand, perhaps it has always been this way, only portrayed in a different manner. My father told me once, when I had only been a leader about ten years or less that my frustration with the level of parental involvement was nothing new. He took me back to our time together in my Scouting youth and pointed out how many boys there were and how few parents. So, we work to continue to expose as many youth as we can to what we still consider worthwhile endeavors, while setting our best examples and trying to keep the fun in it at the same time. It does little good to abandon the good, which is still the largest part of the program when run, with the basic tenets as a guide, just because it changes with the fast paced societal confrontations and challenges. I am not yet to the point of giving up, especially since I have reached the point where I have grown scouts reaching out to me for advice with their own children, or telling me how much their time with us meant to them. It is a point of sincere pride that I can honestly point to so many of my past scouts that are doing well in the world, and that a few of those that I was so disappointed at having "lost", have come back twenty years later to tell me how those principles they chafed at or ignored, eventually came to make sense and lit their paths later in life. Now, some of them have their own children in the program, even a few in our troop. On MY HONOR, I will do MY BEST. Hopefully I will continue to find ways to meet that simple challenge and pass the principles on to another generation.

It appears we may be lumping two different approaches here. I have been on the list for various surveys for a number of years, after signing up to get info and surveys. There was no video for me with this survey, and it was not long. So, we are apparently talking about two different surveys. For me though, it is far better to get ahead of this curve if possible. We can be obdurate and kick and scream, or we can find ways to compromise and be even more inclusive, avoiding a lot o legal hassles and perhaps even building a better program over time. There is no reason girls cannot be involved at various levels, as long as the proper planning and safe guards are developed. We may simply arrive at a far more flexible and challenging program with more options and a bigger umbrella. No matter what occurs, we have to avoid as much negative publicity as we can, as well as not be throwing money away in a fruitless fight against the probable outcome. Just an opinion of course. I fully understand that some simply are too stubborn to even try, and others too set to change.

Actually Stosh, it did have something along that line as a couple of the choices. I suppose I should have copied the survey, as it is now gone, and I am not sure I can pull it up again. But, the last few surveys they have sent me have been fairly wide in the response capability. Now whether or not they actually look at the responses not in their preference, I have no idea. At least they appear to be getting a bit in front of the snow ball, rather than waiting for it to just pick them up as it rolls full speed to the final drop off or dead end.

A little bit ago I received a survey asking very specific questions about girls in the program. They first wanted to know my current status, was I Eagle, and level if any in OA. General questions on current offering being adaptable to girls at various ages. Then asked if girls should be allowed, within the same requirements, to earn Eagle and be in OA. It was short and basically to the point.

From my perspective, having worked the food concession register in 2010 at I think was D not too far from the water activities, way too many scouts appeared to not have a good grasp of financial restraint. Most had the bracelets which were reloadable at various locations, and others simply large amounts of cash it seemed. But, near the end, many were going without or begging for loans from those that seemed to have unlimited resources. When I went as a 16 year old in 1960, I had to earn all but the cost of the uniforms, which was about $50 at the time. I had a job before school and I spent a year beating the bushes for odd jobs to earn enough to attend and have spending money. As an ASM in 1985, as well as from my youth experience, it seems to me that those scouts that did have to earn their way were far more appreciative of the experience in most regards. Ultimately, it is what you as a family decide is the best approach. Hopefully it will not be open ended like those that kept adding money to the bracelets. To me that was a mistake.

One of my past scouts who now is in the Pentagon, soon to retire, has a girl scout daughter and a new Lion Cub. He is always playing with numbers and has become interested in comparatives of membership in both types of programs, over the years. Here is a link to his most recent offering. I might try and get him to join the board and share more of this. Meanwhile, it is on his FB feed. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213596853861950&set=a.2400074807544.2139828.1421255328&type=3&theater

IF the continued ability of the COR to make the ultimate membership decisions is kept in place, the program will work with whatever group you choose, whether all one gender or mixed. The key is simply keeping the basic safeguards for the physical and emotional safety of the youth and adults, and utilizing the best available tools to keep the youth involved and in charge as much as possible, dependent on the age levels. But, the absolute most important element that still exists is the bedrock principles on which Scouting is built, and being flexible enough to accept that every group is different, and that what one group does or believes has little to do with what your group does, and that you always have the option to simply not share in all wider activities within the programs. Half or more of the issues with BSA and most other groups that offer various modes of mentoring to youth or specific focus groups is that too many simply cannot understand that ultimately their own success is within their own dynamic and what others do or believe, if not to your or your group's comfort, is only a negative IF you allow it to become one. The old saw, "live and let live" usually applies quite nicely in most cases.

The sky is falling; the sky is falling!! Please, tell me what might happen, or is going to change the universe of Scouting. Oh, then I can scream "The sky is falling". Whatever happens, find a way to deal and keep the main focus in mind. You know, the youth.

For some reason, I find these kinds of threads confusing or simply irrational. One of the big complaints that continue throughout the various discussions over the years is how we, as an organization, do so little to promote it. We then see calls for going back to older ways of public exposure and such. In the first few decades, up until after WWII, but especially through the first 35 years or so, Boy Scouts were in all kinds of ads, on business calendars, featured on magazine covers, and were widely respected as proponents of good health ideas and good citizenship examples. When I do displays and show much of this older material that was so publicly accepted in our society, many immediately want to know why we no longer see it. Well, one reason is we have too many people looking for excuses to put the program and organization in negative lights and to look for deep pockets in expensive legal actions that are cheaper to pay off than to fight. Now, if this is a poor product and not something that should be considered, among other similar products, then perhaps it should be reconsidered. But, simply because it is not common anymore does not make it a bad thing, and maybe it could suggest more effort to find comparable opportunities that could benefit our public exposures. But, of course, I am old and out of touch with much of the modern realities, so probably I should just accept apparent knee-jerk responses to things that once would not have gotten a second glance.

It once was; they called it Civics. Surely could go back to that with a bit of work and maybe even see them understand the interconnections more easily.

The point, " some of the HQ types are not very good working around scouts. Or being in the outdoors. Or conversing with volunteers." is the biggest reason to do something like it. And they should do cub camps and high adventure too, just at different times. When I was in retail management, it was obvious how disconnected upper management was from "customer" realities.

What think the group. IF every summer, ALL (even the Chiefs) executives from National had to spend at least two weeks in a summer camp, a different one each year, as well as a couple of weekends during the year with "various" local units, all levels, just being a leader and mentor for scouts? Would we see some things that we, as the ones that actually do the program, often have concerns about taken under serious advisement? Would a chef learn something from being a server or hostess? Just making waves because I am old and cantankerous.

I am asking this here, as am not sure how many look at History forum. Years ago, not too long after the world jambo in 1971 I heard this story about this song being sung by Japanese scouts as the Americans were leaving. Can anyone verify this is true, or was it just a feel good story of the time? A Google search has not turned up anything.

We are in the process of struggling with this issue. Right now, a Venture Crew is on the horizon but has yet to fly. Idea is to have a very general and flexible focus, but to incorporate the various approaches to what might be considered the "arts"; that is broad and includes both visual and language and hopefully have a connection to the local public broadcast station and its equipment. Still, enough flexibility that possibly do more traditional skills while filming or writing about them or developing photo books and such. Put together calendars, or modern comic books with Scouting themes. Create a local nature trail with an app that allows more detailed info to the user. Lots of opportunities. The key is to be flexible, reasonable, but keep the basic and important values. It can be done, but it actually requires serious involvement by a broader group of adults in congress with the youth.

Having had the pleasure of sitting on quite a few Eagle boards, I sometimes have wished we could on occasion publish letters with the candidate or writer's identification. Over the years, I have read a number that are really wonderful examples of how a candidate, and therefore Scouting, is viewed by many in the public. I suspect a really inspiring book could be compiled, or likely a number of them over time.

Definitely feel Personal Management is one that absolutely needs to stay, especially in this era. Now the other skills might also include tieing a necktie with a basic overhand and maybe even double Windsor. They could call the badge Living Single Skills, or maybe the old Home Economics.

Yep, being older than dirt causes a lot of problems with these newbie techies and their attempts to "fix" issues. A lot started with the Y2K stuff; many programs were not built to deal with two centuries, even though at the time probably half the adult membership were born in the earlier part of the 20th. I tried to track down my Philmont training; I took 5 summer courses when I was younger. Those records were never computerized and simply have disappeared, or had at the time, into a hole someplace. I can only find some of the verification, but simply gave up. Still have a slim hope that the mess with my Eagle data might someday get fixed in "ALL" records. They show me in some files as becoming Eagle in the city and council I have been in since late 1977. But, I earned it in a totally different place and council; and the council has been gone for years, absorbed by Inland Empire. The troop/post I was in also is gone for many years. So, if someone actually was trying to locate me, not that that actually might occur, they would not have much luck if they do not know where I live now. Oh well. At least they are trying. At least I think they are. Not too many more years, and nobody will care about many of us curmudgeon scouters.

Terry, can you tell me if there is a major biography yet on William Hillcourt? Would love to add a thorough one to the history shelf. I already give him as an added option for reports in the Scouting Heritage MB, along with Rockwell. Have saved short pieces from the net already.

Here is the link to the most recent item from Scouting Magazine . http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/31/bsas-tour-and-activity-plan-eliminated/

As Stosh says, the 73 titles of EBL are interesting. Some of them are actual classics on their own like Ben Hur, Call of the Wild, Treasure Island, and Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. Others are just good stories for youth from the time, or things of interest such as the BSA Handbook, or Seton and Beard titles. One that I have that is not actually in the official list, but has a forward by Franklin Mathews, the Chief Librarian of BSA at the time, is a collection of verse. Then there are the numerous books of actual adventures of Scouts, the best known being 3 Boy Scouts in Africa which was published in a number of languages and whose main author recently passed away in N.C. about a year after finally being awarded the DEA. He also did a book on Grizzlies in Alaska while there in a Scouting connection. Lots of other interesting items in my collection, some with only peripheral Scouting connections, others pretty much all Scouting. A more recent book is about the Hmong scouts in the Bay area. Also are a few titles from other Scouting groups, such as My Hike about 3 Brazillian senior scouts that tried to hike from Rio to N.Y.. Only one completed the hike, while another went off the trail ill, and one actually died. Another one is A Fliver to Cambodia written by 3 senior scouts from France who start from Paris in a Model T and take it to Cambodia by land and sea, dismantling it and putting it back together more than once in order to transport it over steep mountains in the high country of Asia. They complete the trip and are greeted by Cambodian scouts and are French celebrities for a time. One other that I found fascinating is Hobnails to Heather about a group of Eagles from the U.S. that go to Scotland and hike the highlands, visiting with local scout groups and absorbing the culture. All of my copies of the latter items are firsts, but I may have to make due with a reprint of the Lost on A Mountain In Maine about a scout who was just that and attributed his survival to his Scouting skills. Had a chance years back to get a first at a respectable price, and for some reason passed. Now, they show up on occasion, but are sort of pricey. I am curious if some of the recent Eagles that have gone on scientific expeditions may write something, like Siple and Chapelle. National has instituted a program that is actively recruiting older scouts for such expeditions and involvement in research projects. Of course, talking about Scouting stories, we should not forget Onward for God and My Country; retitled Follow Me Boys after the movie, Be Prepared, Mr Scoutmaster, Scouts to the Rescue with Jackie Cooper, as well as lesser know oddball movie titles that capitalized on the popularity of the program in the thirties. Lots more books that discuss issues, or aspects of the program, most recently a number of Eagle Scout related books being written. Searches will find much more out there, some which is just bad, and some that is valid research or study of Scouting as a cultural phenomena.

I have always made the comparison of the Law with the 10 commandments in that while the Commandments are telling us what we should strive to NOT do, in relation to our interactions with the greater world around us, while the Law, with its 12 points, assumes that we ARE certain things within the bounds of common sense and societal and religious interaction. There is always more than one way to interpret the meanings of philosophical tenets dependent on numerous interactions and situations. In relation to "obedient", the same dictum applies as to an order in rare instances in the military or similar dogmatic restrictive environments. IF, the order or expectation is recognizably against greater good or societal norms, then you may possibly or rightfully decide to NOT obey. That being said, your judgment should be made with strong supportive facts or opinion which you should share before your final decision. But, these types of occurrences should be rare. Few, even those not integral to the Scouting movement would seriously deny that the Oath and Law are very good and viable guidelines for a civil society. As most know, one of the symbolic explanations of the Universal Symbol is that it was at the point of the compass needle and that Scouting precepts could be a compass for the voyage through life. One of my biggest frustrations is that too often we are not intellectually or emotionally flexible enough to accept that there are few if any "absolutes" in life other than its finality. Our constant challenge is to not let our personal opinion be so static that we cannot see other possibilities. By the same token, if we are to live in a cooperative world society, we do need to agree that our "right" to personal opinion and action stops as soon as it trespasses on similar territory of another, or negatively affects the greater environment. All just opinion and reflection of an old guy who tries to be fair within his life and interactions.

I remember the last line as "Out West in Region 12". Still sing it just for fun for the boys, who think I am crazy in most cases. Have also been told that it was banned because it has a "suggestive" line in it. Not that I really care about that foolishness. We used to have alot of really silly ditties when I was a Scout in the 50's. I wish I was a little striped skunk, striped skunk repeat I'd climb up in the trees and perfume all the leaves, Oh, I wish I was a little striped skunk. I wish I was a little bottle of pop, repeat. I'd go down with a burp and come up with a slurp Oh I wish I was a little bottle of pop. (Included sound effects of course.) Other similar variants, some which today would be likely banned as suggestive too. We old people must have been really awful, rude kids.

It also was normally done by the TLC or PLC, choose your dated acronym. Leadership skill of major import: learn how to fairly evaluate success or failure of other scouts by peer review.

Yep; we cannot accurately make comparisons across decades of change in society. Not only are there far more things to do for youth and simply distractions, but we also have more two-earner families, more financial stress for lower income families, and a highly litigious environment that puts many dampers on activities once easily done with little thought. While many of the restraints are important, others are over-kill that simply scare people and make many choose other less challenging and "dangerous" activity. As I keep repeating. We have a great program which works well if we make the local efforts to make it happen and listen to the scouts and try and let them lead. And, believe it or not, sometimes introducing what may seem an archaic activity or game sometimes really excites them and will lead to related activity. In our troop/pack/(possibly crew and GS group soon) we are often like a small family that really inter-connects. Local, unit focus works if you actually let it.

Cambridgeskip makes a good historical note regarding women and our society. What is often lost in these discussions is the fact that there have always been females involved in successful cultures. Anthropologists have verified that women were often the backbone of earlier civilizations, possibly because of the special connection of mother and child, no matter the gender. A number of our Native American cultures have traditions of matriarchal control that silently was the glue that held them together. We all know of women, and girls as well, that far exceed the men and boys in almost all areas of achievement. So, why can't we, as a theoretically honest organization, simply focus on the larger picture and work for the youth, and in extension a better society, with flexibility that fits the each unique local group as needed and wanted "by them"? But I am old; what do I know?