skeptic

The National Lodge needs tor to reevaluate the history and find a way to reinstate the mystique and actual "honor" in being a member. It has been beaten to death, but there need to be more actual limits on eligibility that make it less a "gimme". They sill have a purpose and in ur council do help, though, as noted, getting higher participation is difficult. But that has as much to do with the lesser honor issues than simply the over-scheduled lives of the scouts in general.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/alvin-townley-boy-scouts-extraordinary-impact-on-america-calls-us-to-consider-risk-of-litigating-it-to-death?fbclid=IwAR3nN4WaZlmDvQ5BuxGCoSkenskcvsi8XhlmhREoVUZPAyKfXeY6sS5hLtk

And I fully agree that BSA "should" actually have a way to officially recind Eagle, and possibly other special awards like Silver Beaver and so on, should the holder prove they no longer deserve to hold the honor. Sort of goes back to the old fine print in earlier books about Trustworth: "A Scout's Honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate this honor by lying, cheating, or not doing exactly a given task, he MAY be directed to hand over his Scout Badge." In my earlier comment, I simply state my feeling that the Scouting connection should not be a major factor in the aberrant behavior of someone. Other than trying to somehow lessen the mostly positive image of Scouting, even in today's almost amoral society, it serves little purpose.

Not sure what the point is. There have always been Eagles that did not live up to the Oath and Law in later life, or sometimes even while in the program. That an Eagle would step out of the mold just proves that they are normal people, prey to the same temptations and foibles as anyone else. The difference is how few, in comparison to their peers, do go in the wrong direction. There have been numerous studies to verify that. We DO NOT win all the challenges, nor does Scouting save all its successful participants. Just look at some of the poor examples of Eagles that populate our government halls. Are some of them any better than the drug seller in the damage they are causing or have caused? Instead of pointing to the worst examples, why not instead continue to find ways to prove he is an aberration?

We have been very happy with the service and flexibility of Mickman Brothers. They have an excellent product, friendly people, and they plant trees in connection with their products. The online system is adaptable to your own design, to a point and last year they improved it so as to allow the seller to know who actually was responsible for the online sale, each of which earned the seller $8. We used another company for many years, and they too had a great product, but their case lots were far too large for our small unit's needs and they had a minimum as well.

And there we have it once again; the BSA is the deep pocket the lawyers seek. It will be interesting how the case(s) move forward with the other links already noted. There were apparently school teachers, doctors, and other youth group connections that are on the list. They were not just members of BSA, and some apparently were dealt with, but not on the level of expectation expected today. We of course are back to the changing societal perceptions and responses to moral turpitude. "The concept of "moral turpitude" might escape precise definition, but it has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness, or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude I find it interesting that there is noted some connections as well to immigration issues in this shared link. Not being a lawyer, I am not doing more than offering my opinion that it is difficult to make solid judgments about things that have evolved over decades within our society. At the same time, it is even more imperative that we do all we can to assure that YP is kept up to date and at the forefront of our interactions within the program. At the same time, we could hope that somehow the legal stage will bring to fore the reality that the issue is/was not just the BSA, and that today BSA is a leader in trying to avoid these kinds of problems. At the same time, we can never absolutely stop perpetrators that are out there, only put the YP barriers up with all our abilities.

This is the old one through NESA

I like the attempt to prioritize the award knots, and especially the point of choosing the highest nominated award, e.g. Silver Beaver, over Award of Merit. Few of us would need to go farther, though perhaps local recognition might take precedence, depending on the normal uniform use. What I call my formal uniform would take that into consideration, so if I have to eliminate one, the Award of Merit would be likely, followed by the Training award since I have the Key; the real reason for both is the training covers Scouter and Commissioner with the devices. I personally feel the youth religious knot has a high priority and takes precedence over the adult if necessary. Few of us really have to deal with more than 10-12 anyway. Right now I am trying to decide how to handle having been nominated for the updated Scoutmaster award and since the earlier one has a different knot, which should I wear; probably the more current one, retiring the original to the memory book. On the other hand, it can be fun to listen to someone try to determine the knots; most have never seen the original NESA SM award knot. Ultimately, I doubt I will go beyond four rows, and may only have that on the formal shirt. I do still on occasion wear the medals for COH or on Scout Sunday, the religious ones. Once, at the prodding of my scout leadership group, put all the actual medals on for a COH after I had gotten on them for not having their awards on uniforms. But, the clanking and fact they sort of get in the way much of the time makes that a rare exception. We also have some challenges with hanging medals for NRA and Trails on occasion. Ultimately, common sense and rational thought will win out.

Working on our council history, looking through old photos from the twenties and thirties, you can tell that many scouts were swimming nude, though the old photos are so small that you have to look closely. None of the ones in the archives appear to show anything scandalous. But, we have an enlarged, posed photo in our own troop record that was shot in the Southern Sierra in the forties with a goup of senior scouts, staff from the local camp that had finished the summer, on rocks by a lake sans clothing. Again, it is well posed and composed to not show anything too scandalous unless basic skin is so considered. I learned to swim at the Y in Alhambra, CA in the fifties, and they still had a clothing optional swim period for males and for females. When my brother and I went on family night with our dad, we always changed in the men's locker and took showers with all ages. Of course, in high school, showers were group with multiple shower heads, and you were required to use them after PE. It was not an optional program. That went for the girls too. We live in a different world, and I wonder sometimes if much of our current issues may actually stem from this return to prudery of sorts and scandalizing the reality to where it becomes somehow wrong, even as we allow the porn industry and advertisers to push boundaries. Still, I have no issue with the barriers of YP. It is way overdue, not simply in Scouting, but in the society at large. At the same time, how much of our convoluted responses to the human body actually push us towards problems?

While some kind of misunderstanding happened, I am suspicious of the story's direction. I suspect that legal threat was not necessary, but it plays into the larger "anti-Christian" persecution storyline. Surely the decision at the base was a poor misinterpretation or possibly a personal decision without proper vetting. JMO of course.

The lawyers are simply greedy, but there are a few out there that for some reason work at bringing bad image publicity to BSA. Why, other than they can, I do not know.

And you are absolutely right. But the ambulance chasers and hate the Scouts people will never give any credit. They do not care that BSA has a far better track record than probably any other youth-serving group, and likely better than schools as well.

Sour grapes never make good wine.

There are parameters that are consistent, from what I have read over the years. It is not intended to be an easily achieved award, and even getting a bronze is a very high honor. Your son is to be commended for the award he has been afforded, and he can still do additional efforts towards a higher level of achievement. Be proud, and be happy that he is still in a very small group of scouts over the years.

Why would anyone have an issue with this? It was restricted due to a number of issues, both related to habitat and more importantly physical concerns. Since that time, the physical requirements have been modified for participants and they have done major restorative and replacement trail work on the area of the tooth and its main route. It, being one of the symbols of the ranch, and a visible challenge, I see no problem as long as they have put needed qualifications into place and do not stress the land around it beyond normal recovery. Granted, I personally climbed the tooth from PTC twice, as well as a couple of other trails that were easily accommodating. I also trekked across it in 1979 returning to the ranch at the end of a ten-day hike. If all goes well, I will be there in June, but I will not try the hike, even if they were to allow it, as I am no longer physically qualified, and I realize that. Like anything, we need to take personal responsibility for what we attempt physically, and I am too old and have had serious issues. But, I am glad others may again have the opportunity, as it is part of the PTC/Ranch experience and the view is spectacular.

Years ago now I subscribed to the actual Scouter Magazine connected to the Forum. Look what I found hidden in a box.

Are we speaking of the COR or the CC? COR's are the link between the charter organization and the unit and would normally not be overly involved in much of what you note? You should be able to get the things you need, but that is not saying you will if she is stubborn or something. Good luck, either way.

When scanning some of the historical graphs and data I noted that a number of badges show an almost immediate precipitous drop as soon as they were dropped from Eagle requirements or options. That includes the conservation badges that were options in the fifties from "group" choices. You needed at least one. I had two, but that was more to do with thinking I would work on the Hornaday award, but then we moved and I started high school and while staying in, kind of got dragged in other directions, including working. Until the late forties, early fifties (have to check the dates for changes) Bird Study was an Eagle badge. It then was replaced by Nature, and now Environmental Science or Sustainability. Swimming and Life Saving were for a long time pretty much non-optional as well. Safety held on for a long while, longer than Public Health, Firemanship, and Citizenship in the Home. Of course, it is obvious what happened to the farm-related badges; people left the farms. Similarly, some of the trade type badges were more common due to the need to simply know some of those skills. Today, most people will pay to have stuff done and do not care to learn to do it themselves. Home repairs was very common when I was a scout, but today, you almost need to twist their arms. Not sure what happened to the mainstay "gimme", Fingerprinting. Again, many of the more school related badges were popular until the late sixties, early seventies, as you often could arrange to have your teacher be the counselor. In the fifties, most credentialed teachers were accepted almost without question as counselors. As such, Reading and Scholarship were far more common, though reading was simply more of a youthful pastime then, as many of the detractions today did not exist. Thinking back a little, I think in some respects the needed merit badge system of the late forties and through the fifties, with the "groups" challenged more widespread sampling of what was offered. Every Eagle needed to have at least two or three badges they likely would not have considered other than needing one from that group. I wonder how much that was determined by the similar wider range of "general" subjects for college graduation. Today, the very basic college curriclum seems thin on classes that simply broaden your general knowledge. Change is always happening, and we very likely may see another major one once the Scouts BSA moves into full gear. Females may have interests in some subjects that prior to this were not broadly considered. Time will tell. Meanwhile, we just keep trying to focus on the basics and the end result of better youth and citizens.

While backpacking for me is pretty much no longer likely, unless I have a lot of time and it is very short, it is because of age and health. But, I wonder how much of an effect the fire issues have had on it, especially in the West. Half of our local trails have been off limits for most of the past five+ years, or only available for a few weeks if we are lucky. Even drive-in sites have been restricted. Add the increased cost factors, as most sites that we could go to that were free, or really inexpensive, are now being "run" by vendors, and the cost is often restrictive, as well as the number that can use it. Then add in charges for extra vehicles, and it is even worse. It will be interesting to see if locally this spring and summer we have more units out, assuming the rain damage does not perpetuate the fire danger issues with a new face. I do know that there are a number of trails reported basically gone or so badly damaged that they are not going to be viable. We do have some option if we can arrange to actually go in on some of these and work with the FS to repair them. But, often the work is limited to the older, more experienced scouts and scouters. I wonder if similr issues apply in other areas of the wilder country.

Since I have not seen any indication in a while that Terry Howerton is actually still involved with this forum, I am simply curious as to if he is. I tried making a direct contact through another lite/email related to entrepreneurship, but the mail was bounced. Thanks for any update.

Once again I wonder if we may soon see an in depth biography of William "Greenbar Bill" Hillcourt? Now that it appears that whatever prejudices might have taken his importance off the front page of National, it would seem time.

This is heavy on the "deep pockets" theme. Is the family suing the vendor? Are they suing the family of the youth that is alleged to have shot the arrow? As long as we allow our society to be one of uncontrolled lawsuits and lack of personal responsibility we will see this. Every day almost I see lawyers advertising on TV about this or that; "did you have an accident? You have rights, and we can help you." "There is a class action lawsuit and you may be able to get some of the action. Call us now before you miss out." Papers and magazines very often have ads for "legal" representation for the unfair or awful thing that happened to you, even if the responsible party took responsibility or insurance covered it without a fight. Unless we, as a country, have the backbone to put on the brakes, it will simply continue to get worse. But I would not hold your breath, as ego and money are stronger much of the time than personal ethics and responsibility for our own actions.

This is from an auction listing for an upcoming auction through Heritage Auction House. I find the comments in the shared part of the letter from the auction site to be reflective of how often B.P. offered specific, well-reasoned comments on youth issues during his era. Robert Baden-Powell Typed Letter Signed "Robert Baden-Powell". Two pages, 8" x 10" (sight), London; May 30, 1921. Printed on Boy Scouts Association letterhead and addressed to an unknown recipient, the letter graciously declines an invitation to write an article about films, but offers an opinion on the future of cinema. His letter reads in part: "...the selection of the character of the films really rests neither with the proprietors, nor with the Public Censor, but with the public. If the public shows its preference for good dramas and interesting instructive pictures, instead of the silly films that are found to play in certain countries, the manufacturers will naturally be guided by its taste. When educationalists and other people complain of the nature of the films they should direct some of the blame on those who are responsible for the character training of the young people – and there you have a problem!...it is in order to do something in this direction that the Boy Scouts and the Girl Guide Movements have been started and are already making headway." The letter is framed with a portrait of Baden-Powell to the overall size of 37" x 21.5".

Here, from the on-line copy of Camp Standards from which all resident camps are judged each summer is the fire section. Note: both the Fireguard Plan and No Fire In Tents wording is mentioned. So, at least in BSA accredited camps these things should be in effect. And some of the general info might be good for non BSA property, especially in much of the Southwest. STANDARD: Adequate provision is made for fire detection and protection. Camp properties Day camp Family camp Resident camp Trek camp Specialtyadventure camp Highadventure camp FIRE DETECTION AND PROTECTION Specific Requirements of the Standard: All subparts must be met, except as indicated. A. Campwide. A camp fire protection plan is in effect that addresses campsite, building, and area fires. Camp staff training includes specific instructions related to the staff’s roles during a fire emergency. Campers and leaders are oriented in the fireguard plan, and a campwide drill is held within 24 hours of arrival in camp. Central firefighting equipment is neatly placed and is in good condition, ready for immediate use if included in the fire plan. Examples of such equipment include hoses, back pumps, rakes, shovels, and mattocks. B. Buildings. 1. Fire extinguishers of an approved size and type commensurate with the hazard are required. Extinguishers should be mounted near a doorway or adjacent to specific hazards and at approximately shoulder level. Current inspection tags will be evident on each extinguisher and inspection will be performed by a professional trained in their maintenance in accordance with the requirements of local codes. Refer to the current edition of NFPA 10 and OSHA 1910.157 for required placement, type, and size of extinguishers. 2. All doors on buildings comply with local codes. Generally, code requires doors in buildings that serve 50 people or more to open in the direction of escape travel. 3. Operating smoke detection is required in every enclosed permanent structure where people work, gather, or sleep. The quantity and location of detectors shall be in accordance with recognized national and local codes (NFPA, local fire codes, etc.). 4. Carbon monoxide detection is required in every enclosed permanent structure where people sleep and there is a device fueled by an energy source that produces carbon monoxide. The quantity and location of detectors shall be in accordance with recognized national and local codes. C. Kitchens. Kitchens will have approved fire extinguishers commensurate with the hazard. If a fire-suppression system is used for cooking hood(s), these systems along with extinguishers will have current inspection tags evident, and inspection will be performed by a professional trained in their maintenance in accordance with the requirements of local codes. FA-703 FA-703-2 Applies to: (Revised January 1, 2015) Camp properties Day camp Family camp Resident camp Trek camp Specialtyadventure camp Highadventure camp FIRE DETECTION AND PROTECTION D. Tents. 1. All camp-provided tentage used in the camp meets or exceeds fireretardant specifications by the manufacturer (CPAI-84). 2. At resident camps, “No Flames in Tents” is marked on, or adjacent to, each camp-provided tent. Where unit- or personally-supplied tents are used, the campsite displays a prominent “No Flames in Tents” sign. E. Bulk flammable storage. Bulk containers of flammable liquids are properly located, vented, secured, and connected in accordance with the supplier’s recommendation and local codes. Fuel pumps are locked; all flammable fuels are safely stored in approved containers that are locked or located in a controlled locker area or facility. Fire extinguishers will be provided in accordance with Section B.1 above. F. Signage. “Danger—No Smoking” signs are posted at fuel storage locations where required by code or established by council policy. INTERPRETATION: The primary requirement is that the camp conduct a risk assessment for fire and carbon monoxide risks and develop an appropriate fireguard plan. The camp fire protection plan should be coordinated with the emergency plans addressed in Standard AO-805 Emergency Procedures. Where smoke detection is a problem due to hot work such as welding, local codes may provide for alternatives such as heat detection. Backpacking-type fuel bottles and consumer-use propane and LPG cylinders up to 30 pounds used for grills and lanterns are not considered to be bulk containers for purposes of this standard. VERIFICATION: • Visual inspection and check of inspection tags and signs

Camp tents usually have the stencils on the tents. And we are required to have the Fire Guard System in place in camp. That is water and sand at the two corners, and in our camp critter sticks in the water. Also every camp has a long hose which is supposed to hooked up and coiled for immediate use if necessary.