skeptic

The merit badge part of the discussion made me think a bit about the "oldest" days. Shirts were long sleeved then, not sure when a uniform with short sleeves became available. The first six MB's could be worn on the right sleeve up from the cuff in two's, though again will need to review, maybe the limit was not there initially. Merit badge sleeves, attached sleeves for jus them, became an addition for a while, then replaced with the sash. Early sashes were narrow. I have seen some seriously cool early photos with scouts wearing sleeves covered shoulder to cuff almost. Have tried to find even one for my assortment of stuff, but they are few and far between and more money than I prefer to pay. I still remember though having three or four mb's on my right sleeve when I was first starting. It was a big deal. I occasionally wear WB beads alone with T or the basic shirt, but usually I have a neckerchief with the beads twisted to hold the tips down. Only wear the complete WB setup on rare occasion. Have one of the English neckers that is larger, and it fits well; my original one was way too short.

Similar conflicts date back a couple of decades. One of the larger ones was the long drawn out case in San Diego over the use of Balboa Park and later Fiesta Island for camps. The ACLU took up the case and dragged on for a very long time. The City of San Diego paid the ACLU a large sum to be removed from the suit. But, after ten years or more the case was thrown out. It started with just Balboa, and then had the other camp added when it was developed, with the request of the county, city and other youth groups. The ACLU as far a I know never was asked to return the money either. Another was the infamous Randall Twins who were cubs. Their father claimed he was atheist and so they too were. He was also a lawyer. It went round and round, but they eventurally were allowed to actually go all the way through the scouting ranks. Have to check, but I think it became a news bit years later when they reached Eagle. The crazy thing, at least for me, in the very early stages was when a reporter asked the boys, when they were still young Cubs, how they understood natural things such as the forest, or the stars and such. The boys responded that that was just Mother Nature. I could not help but wonder how come nobody at the time pointed out that Mother Nature is just another Godess, which in my mind contradicted their position. Reality is that most of these young people are still trying to reconcile their beliefs and understanding, and when they make such claims, it is a result of that searching within. Ultimately then, they are still trying to deal with their own spirituality, or at least so I feel. And that is what we ask, that they recognize something beyond themselves or at least see that there is that unanswered question. I am still searching within, even though I consider myself a Christian. We will not likely know until the time arrives; and even then, we may not encounter what we may hope or think. Way too out there I guess.

I wonder if we may seriously want to consider adding or modifying requirements for Citizenship in the Nation to include actually pass the Citizenship Test for those trying to become citizens; pass at or above the same standard an immigrant needs? Review this: as leaders and mentors in general, we should have concerns. Just the way I see it. https://woodrow.org/news/national-survey-finds-just-1-in-3-americans-would-pass-citizenship-test/?fbclid=IwAR0xsWFiD5opdYNBsi8mVkJTc_hogDjCVQFZhBMCs1Zr-XI_MeiqBvFKLOQ

Sounds as if they have basically put the old WB course into a new format. 8 days on the side of the mountain at a summer camp. Formed into the traditional patrols, and you were scouts all week, with patrol challenges and all that it entailed. Most of that is lost from the current WB plan that can be completed indoors for the most part, often using dorms, and multiple weekends.

If, as in very likely a majority of units, the individual scout is credited for his contribution in some manner, usually a limited use account of some kind, then he likely should have such an option. Most of these accounts have restrictions on them as to what they can actually spend the funds on; it is mostly administrative fees, camping, uniforming. It generally is not allowed to use it for simple frivolous personal items or entertainment. Kind of another fine line, since it is not a personal use. But it does belong to the unit, not the scout. In our unit, if they leave, normally any funds left in an account returns to the unit directly, though it might, with proper management, follow him to another unit, paid to that unit, not the scout or his family.

Ah yes; common sense and logic rear their head; good to see they are not dead, only apparently dormant much of the time.

"We want to make sure they know the boundaries." Basically, this is what I hoped we could share about. How do we "Do our best" to assure this? We will never get all, or for that matter, many adults to take the time or to pay attention. But, at the same time, by having a broad enough group of adults, leaders with actual YP or not, will enhance our chances for issue NOT occurring. Nothing is foolproof; we all know that. On the other hand, we need to keep the parameters of protection in view as well as possible. This is as much for the adults as it is for the youth. Those of us old enough remember the life-altering fiasco that was "McMartin". Be prepared; work the program.

I guess my concern is not coming through. We are told we cannot keep non registered adults that are part of the family group, or for that matter just friends, from attendance. And that is fine, as long as the parents understand the YP rules, at least the minimum, such as kids not alone with single adults or big age gaps of youth. The YP protection standards need to apply to ALL adults, even if they choose to not be registered, and we need to NOT assume that because someone vouches for them that we can somehow allow the rules to be bent or ignored. That comes from assuring, in some manner, that the parents understand those standards, even if they prefer not to be actually registered. That is not asking them to do our jobs, that is simply asking them to understand the rules and if necessary be aware of their violations as well. Is there a way to reach MOST of them, even if not regular attendees or leaders?

Reviewing various pieces of YP, I do not find anything "specific" to how to approach the general adult contact from family, friends, and unregistered parents. Other than the various guides in the fronts of the manuals, the ones parents are in theory covering with their youth, what is there? As you review the fewer, but still occurring cases it seems as if the problem is often because those actually trained are not in the position to observe at times. How many parents, or simply adults in attendance at a general gathering, are prepared to note YP violations? What are our best ways to cover as much of the possible scenes as we can, encouraging general parental attendees to at least know the rules, registered or not?

Yes, the Jeal book has a great deal of innuendo, or so it seemed to me. Having read a number of other bio's of BP, it gave me pause, for sure. Personally, I feel after much farther study that Teal was doing a lot of what the current era is doing to BSA. He tries to take a different historical period and make it comparable to a modern one. That does not work, and it causes many issues, or at least so I believe. Still, the overall depth of research makes the book a must to better understand BP. If you want to get an even different view, read one of the actual family memoirs or material he personally wrote that touches on his thoughts, like Rovering To Success or Lessons from the Varsity of Life. You might also take a look at this web site; http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/

Interesting discussion. I have seen a few instances in Eagle projects where an adult tries to run the project, NOT a parent, but one with special knowledge; or maybe they think they have expertise. If the candidate is a younger one, they truly have a hard time speaking up, even if it is written and approved by others. That is the time when we, as leaders, might need to step in and suggest the interfering adult rethink their actions, possibly taking them aside and reminding them or simply educating them as to what the intent of the Scout being in charge is. A couple of times, in a review board, when asked about issues with the project, we have had this very discussion. I am one to feel that as long as there will not be any danger or injury, to let them lead and see what happens. After all, that is really what we hopefully strive for.

This whole thread has gone down. Guess the vet wanted to feather his nest a bit.

And here lies the proverbial rub. We could have a girl patrol in our unit, one that would allow us to offer the program to a small group and hopefully grow from there. But we do not have the resources to have a separate unit, nor at the moment the minimum 5 to start it. Our small cub group has a den of girls and they will need to go to another unattached unit if they want to bridge, unless we somehow are able to make the "new" unit happen. I personally am still of the opinion that we need to adjust the requirement of a separate unit, while still tweaking the way to handle it. It should be a viable option for small units like ours that have a long history but small boy size.

I just finished reading The Hearts of Men by Butler. I note it as adult, as it deals with real, but more mature subjects, even as it encompasses many elements of Scouting. If you get a chance, consider reading it. Take a look at the synopsis on the web through Amazon or your favorite source. I found it to be excellent; it managed to touch on many of my personal realities in Scouting both as a youth and an adult. It does not though pull many punches in its slant and made me think a bit. Take a look.

Few of us that have been around any length of time have not encountered self centered volunteers who seem to be more in the program for what they can put on the uniform than for their children, assuming they have them in the program. But, like many annoyances in life, we tend too often to focus on the anomaly in the group rather than those that live the intent of the various parts of the program. The best Woodbadgers would almost lay down their lives for Scouting and the youth within. The knots are apersonal thing, but if you hang around for a while and actually work the program you may end up with a number of them that do not require your actually earning them specifically. District, council, and higher volunteer recognitions seldom go to non-contributors, though perhaps some do to those with dollars to offer. That sometimes is them buying the award, but more often than not, they have done more than just give money if they have been around a while. Knots can be an avenue to encourage scouts who ask about them. I often tell them I am old, so they grow on you. But I also explain them, and note those most important to me and why; Eagle, Youth Religious, Award of Merit and Silver Beaver, and my two Scoutmaster awards, the old NESA one and the more current one. I for a long while did not wear the West until an oldtime retired scouter pinned a collar pin on my RT shirt thanking me for my time in the program and helping as needed. He was retired and decided to spend some of his money, having no family, in recognizing Scouters. I also had been given a memorial version for one of my earliest Eagles that had died in service, but I had not felt I should wear the knot. It was pointed out to me, that the memorial recognitions were not being properly appreciated if I did not wear the knot. No Arrow of Light as I was never an actual cub; my mother was den mother for my older brother and I just did it with no membership; I wanted to turn 11 and be a Boy Scout. Training and Key with devices, the only ones you actually earn, and an adult recognition from my church. The only time the medals are worn for formal occasions or dinners, Scout Sunday, and Eagle COHs. At the Eagle dinners, I actually do not wear the medal but do have lapel pins, since I am in a sport coat. My experience has been that you do not fool the scouts for long if you are not the representative you should be. But they respect adults that show they care and try to live the tenets. Never be afraid to admit when you may be in error or lose it and need to apologize. I do not want youth to think that it is okay for me to blow up, even if there may be good reason. So, if it does happen, and it will over time, just face up to it when you calm down and try to assuage the damage. Set the example; they are always watching.

Key word; "reasonably". That too often is the disconnect it seems. I often wonder at what point the memory of the reality of the lower levels disappears for those that move up. Not just in Scouting, but in my experience in retail management.

And that may be the end of your honeymoon, even as he goes on one. Unless the spouse is already aware of the awful schedule and constant pressure, and they can keep the family income ahead of the game, you will lose him. I have seen many divorces over the years of struggling and really potentially excellent DE's. It destroys their marriages and often destroys their love of Scouting that led them there in the first place. Some do come back, and those areas are fortunate to get them as volunteers; but many simply disappear and even if they have kids eligible, do not have them in the program. Sad, but far too true. Or so it seems to me.

I may have posted this observation before, but my old age is affecting my memory a bit. If I did, please nod and move on. I spent 15+ years substitute teaching, initially primarily in the middle grades. Later, I started leaning to the 3rd and below, joking that they were still smaller than me. But one thing I note looking back is that in middle school, if the groups are set up by the teacher, the girls tended to become the moderator of sorts if the group was balanced and it was left to them. Often there was a boy that seemed comfortable simply sort of feeding the leader ideas, but often the boys kept quiet and tried to veg a little. In the upper grades, there appeared to be more parity, with males tending to take charge more readily. And that seems to be a reflection on maturation speeds more than anything. Ironically, I also noticed that when the girl led groups were confronted by boy led groups, the girls tended to be less aggressive in the discussions and even giving in when they had strong opinions with good support. But, girls tended to ask more questions overall. How much this all has to do with family interactions and societal norms is a separate subject still evolving in our changed society. I personally would rather see a strong girl led coed patrol than a poorly led all male one. Again, evolution and adjustments. BP was forced to recognize that girls wanted to do Scouting too. And he moved within the confines of his time to make it happen. I personally feel we that we should allow coed troops, and possibly coed patrols. But the separation could be on the patrol level, just as it is on den level in Cubs. We have already seen that all girl patrols mostly held their own or outdid the boy patrols at the first camporee interactions. That challenge though is reflected in the real world as well. So it is another option to bringing our youth into the larger society. Just as I have observed and reasoned. Not the expert.

So, would they stay longer if the second training was moved forward? Or is it more the realization soon afterward that they will have long hours and lots of frustration and little actual scouting? When I considered, briefly becoming a professional in the old Riverside council they had me register at large and then spend a few weeks accompanying a working exec as my time allowed. I very quickly understood that the Pro, especially new ones, had little direct interaction with the youth, but a lot of frustration with obdurate adults and difficult goals, all while spending long hours at meetings over weekends and at night. Then I knew that was not what I wanted.

This video has been shared locally by our Church and attempts to answer or address much of this. Our particular church has long been more liberal and over the past decade or so has seen a slow migration of members to other Protestant groups that remain focused on narrow, established ideas regarding the issues. On the other hand, there is a great deal of quiet cooperation among these groups in areas of less controversy. Both sides seem wont to move in a more involved community outreach that is more hands on local problems and challenges. The image of the old Methodist circuit rider is being held up by many. Anyway, take a look if you choose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlFGjKjCXM

This break has been in process for over a decade and has pretty much come to a head. Here are links to two resources, one the Church itself, the other the L.A. Times recent article. In our locality of So Cal, the issue with the sponsor and Scouting seems to be minimal. All of our council units sponsored by Methodists appear to be okay, though congregations have shrunk along with membership in units. Still, the oldest units in our council are mostly UMC; ours will be one hundred next year, and there are two or three others that are over 50. https://www.umnews.org/en/news/diverse-leaders-group-offers-separation-plan https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-01-03/united-methodist-church-lgbtq

Amen.

There is no point in posting, again, the reasons behind the LDS change of direction, the details that were shared directly from their highest levels. Some simply cannot accept the simple truth and have to add their own interpretation. That is not to say that there are not tangential reasons to the core decision "by the world LDS church". But the basic reasons cannot have been spelled out more clearly, or at least I do not see how. You can find them on this forum and also in other similar ones. As far as this thread goes, can we simply back off and live by the simple twelveth point of the Law?

So I guess we should just accept it and not be concerned? What happened to "do my best"?

Not pretty: https://www.wyliecomm.com/2019/03/us-literacy-rate/ https://www.wyliecomm.com/2019/03/us-literacy-rate/