skeptic

It isn't happening now, so lets move forward and work with our current options and stop making noise when not necessary. Be happy that for the moment, not all the doom and gloom is in motion. Certainly stepping, if slowly, in a better direction.

So, I find myself wondering how the lawyers at the core of this suit, the ones that most of us see for what they are, would respond to a concerted effort by interested legal parties to dig back into their families and drag out fifty year old family related bad acts or poor responses to them. Just conjecture, and it is really not a Scout-like idea. Still, I really detest their distortions and attitudes. But they threw the first rocks.

A new posting in my download from Bryan On Scouting. I found the disclaimer, show below, almost too much for common sense, but also understand the reason. Just a comment on where we are in our society now. Importantly, these answers are designed to provide information and should not be used to diagnose health conditions. Please reach out to a professional health provider for support in addressing concerns you may have. COVID-19 is an emerging, rapidly evolving situation. Any materials that the Boy Scouts of America provides are for information purposes only and do not represent endorsement by or an official position of the Boy Scouts of America. Advice on the treatment or care of a patient should be obtained through consultation with a physician who has examined that patient and is familiar with that patient’s medical history. The information, data, opinions, and statements included or linked to from this website are not necessarily those of the Boy Scouts of America and should not be interpreted, acted on, or represented as such. The Boy Scouts of America does not make any warranty, express or implied, including the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose with respect to materials available from this website. In addition, the Boy Scouts of America assumes no legal liability for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed herein and does not represent that use of such information, apparatus, product, or process would not infringe on privately owned rights.

I have taken 6 courses at PTC over the years, going back to 1977, and I saw almost nothing but positive family experiences going on. What they told us last summer when I was there again for the History program was that they were developing a program along the lines of the family options for PTC, but that would be done outside a family member in a training seminar. I got the impression it also would be eventually open to non scouting individuals.

This has been an interesting read. I continue to be flummoxed by some of the truly negative comments, especially in light of the detailed positive report. Cost, other than the transportation if you are not near, is within the same range as our more local camps, and less than some. I would dearly love to be able to take our unit there, based on the report given, but for us, in California, it is prohibitive from the travel standpoint. I do wonder if the format I perceive in the report is what they are moving towards in the changes at Philmont. Their descriptions last summer of the direction they hope to move at Philmont would seem to encompass offering some of the best parts to a broader range of participants, and include some additional options going forward if the idiot lawyers can be pushed from the larger picture. I could easily see, based on what I have read about the WV site, that serious remote and wilderness experiences are or will be options too, just as the traditional Philmont programs continue.

This, IMO, is part of the problem in the hierarchy of local councils. In reality, the COR, in conjunction with the others within the council, have considerable power if they are coordinated. Each has a seat on the Executive Board, and a vote. Most either choose to not participated beyond the signing of adult apps and occasional troop visits. But, their job is to represent their CO on the council Exec board, and to convey the CO's concerns. Most councils appear to downplay that actual power and would prefer to not see the COR's attending meetings, especially ones dominated by an elite clique appointed by the Scout Executive. The SE appoints some board members, and those appear too often to be the controllers of the actual board decisions. There have been occasions though where someone coordinated a COR revolt and suddenly there were major changes happening in that council, including the firing of the Executive and others. I would suggest that if a council actually had active COR participation at a high level, they might be far better run.

I just noted that a lawsuit has been filed in N.Y. against the Girl Scouts for abuse. There is also one against a Rockefeller research center that apparently had abuse happen in a youth group study by doctors. So, the net spreads, and soon BSA will just be a small part. How long until the youth sports and Big Brothers and Sisters have their accusations?

Sorry, but I find it foolish to blame ignorance, bad actions, and rude or worse language on a virus. Covid does not make people do these things. They make the choice, and use the idea of Covid stress as an excuse. JMHO of course.

There are four books in my collection on Antarctic Scouting participation. Three relate to Paul Siple, and one to Richard Chappell. All are interesting and representative of Scouting involvement in some very advanced and challenging activities over the years. Others include the African safari told about in Three Scouts in Africa; another, included one of those African participants in Alaska, A Boy Scout in Grizzley Country; there is one about scouts working with rangers in a National park, another about a hike of some scouts on the Oregon trail to Independence Rock for its hundredth anniversary, and another about a group of Eagles that spent weeks hiking in the Highlands of Scotland interacting with the local Scouts and communities. A few others relate to Sea Scouting adventures in those earlier days, and there are small mentions here and there of lesser known and less dramatic Scouting adventure activities in other anthologies. But, the idea that this is no longer an option is wrong. the NESA world explorer program continues to nurture such things, but few are really aware of this. Take a look; https://nesa.org/for-eagle-scouts/scholarships/nesa-world-explorer/

It is interesting to me that this particular broad, yet detailed discussion is going on here right now, but that this same discussion has not as yet been offered by the BSA defense team. Further, should not this same argument, similar to what we have here, be published by some prominent public opinion sources? Of course, I have suggested similar things as far back as the first case in Oregon. I also remember there being concern then about the poor decision to force the release of the Ineligible Files to legal perusal, as we knew that it would lead to just what has occurred. Logic and any semblance of fairness went out the window a long while back in relation to this. In many ways, this is just another variant on the McMartin disaster, and a few other similar cases. Skewed and often barely connected accusations and lack of cooperation from many societal units responsible for the extended follow ups, plus the death of so many witnesses all lead to the perfect storm we now have. And it is basically our distorted legal system. We have noted many times now that this would not be happening in 90 percent or more of the larger world, not even what are considered the more progressive and fairest countries.

Trying to review this, but cannot get a link for it, and the part shown does not fit screen properly. Where is this from?

Part of the article on youth and world peace I have been rading; "“The Education of Young People – A Statement at the Dawn of the 21st Century”. The five organisations (World YMCA, World YWCA, WOSM, WAGGGS and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies), which together “…actively involve in excess of 100 million young people” feel that the value of nonformal education is “…often underestimated and its benefits undervalued” and they call for recognition that “…non-formal education is an essential part of the educational process” and therefore that “…the contribution made by non-formal education organisations” deserves appreciation and support." More from Baden Powell and World Scouting: "The idea of world brotherhood is indeed deeply rooted in B-P’s thinking. Already in 1921, he wrote in “Jamboree”: “How God must laugh at the little differences that we set up amongst ourselves under the camouflage of religion, politics, patriotism or class, to the neglect of a far greater tie – that of the Brotherhood in the Human Family.”

No quibble with the tools as you note; just have issue with the, to me, foolish and narrow minded concept that the term "Scoutmaster" is out dated or negative, or somehow derogatory to the scouts. Surely we have more serious concerns, say for example, making the best parts of Scouting visible and prominent to the communities they serve, and doing it well enough that the crazies that are trying to destroy it just give up. There was a reason that the Rockwell Scouting themed paintings were popular and still are, or that major advertisers used Scouts and Scouting themes in their ads, or that in times of stress, like disasters and the world wars, scouts were at the forefront and called upon, respected by the public in general. They still have the same basic foundation, it is just that society has lost its own compass. JMHO and last comment.

I say again, "nonsense". Let me add, "rubbish", and "give me a break", and "stop building mountains from molehills". Tradition has its place, and this is one that deserves to remain.

Yes, annoying, but real life. Little has changed in the way the world works. The only difference in the way in which people respond to asking for help, is the myriad ways they can ignore or "forget". Today, we have supposedly better communications, but we all know few people pay attention to email anymore, and even texts are easily missed or put on the later burner. This can simply be a learning experience for your son, and maybe a reminder for yourself. Follow, follow, and then check. Do not expect one reach out to do the trick. If it is important, do it personally and then follow up as well. Good luck, but jump off from here and grow.

Nonsense. Push the hype and try to panic weak minded Chicken Littles. That is not what we teach the youth, or it should not be. "On My Honor". Honor is all that we truly need as we wend our ways through the self-centered crowds to the exit of the maze. If we have our compass, we will be fine.

In a little more than 4 years or so, Troop 111 has quietly done what most of us only talk about too much, but for whatever reason fall short much of the time. THIS is what National should be doing, but just as 111 is doing, just that, doing it and quietly putting it out there for the community to see, and maybe take away some of the media's tarnishing. This unit grew out of a pack. The two primary leaders took their cubs and began the slow evolution, through Webeloes that were already doing some of what the troop now does, and moved the younger boys into a new troop, focused on this program. This video is an accurate depiction. By that, I mean that the youth are the most important element, and Craig and the other leaders prefer the background and they mentor. Craig is an Eagle, and I had the privilege of seeing him grow up and I believe council him for a merit badge or two. More importantly, his father was a mentor for me as I began my journey in VCC. Craig represents what I fondly remember about his dad, and I only hope that he and their unit continue to carry the true image to the world. Pioneer Hike (8-04-83) Reflecting on the scouting way, while set alone within the wood; I saw the boy that once was me who sought to grow, be understood. But now it’s someone else's son whose youthful zeal rings through the trees, who looks to Me to understand, to see the way He sees. Thus, the cycle has come around, the scouting boy became a man; and what he learned within his youth, he returns, the best he can. Camp Chawanakee, B.S.A. Shaver Lake, Calif. 8-5-83

Like the Teal book an BP over-reaches, many of the comments from the lead in to WWII by prominent people simply shows early misconceptions many had. Go 5 year forward, or less, and those same positive views were expunged and contradicted by most of the parties we bludgeon today with this "evidence" of poor judgement or what ever we might call it. BP also wrote glowingly about some African tribes and their leadership, even going so far as to use beads from the wooden strand, I believe from a Zulu Chief, as representative of leadership skill. Some suggest he stole the strand, while he suggested it was given to him as a peace and brotherhood gift. We likely cannot know for sure. But, let us not make the mistake of trying to destroy the reputations of many once respected people simply base on bringing the past into the present. Rather, as historical reference offers, use these enhanced views as tools to do it better and with more concern for others, while keeping the "history" in its own era. In some respect, we are now at a point with BSA where we are functioning on similar levels as the earliest units. They were pretty much local control, with viable and enthusiastic members, both adult and youth. Those of us that really know the history may see many comparisons and opportunities in this, truly bringing the program back to the local levels, but also with modern protections for all membership, both youth and adult. We cannot stop the prejudices of the others around us, but we can find ways to show it to be the wrong model, and we can resurrect visible positive images of our still viable programs. Every council likely has today a few units that seem to just be rolling forward, doing the program and offering quiet service of which few in the community are aware. That in itself, is the challenge, as it is that community awareness of the positives of Scouting that led to their growth in the first half century. Or so it appears to me.

And then we have the cost of a visit to a major amusement park where you spend half your time standing in hot lines and buying over-priced food, as well as the entrance and parking. I admittedly no longer have the patience or focus to make a chart of say a dozen various youth activities and their average annual costs. But, as you have noted, Scouting is "still" overall a bargain. Much of the yelling is partly due to simply the "fact" that the organization has always been a comparative bargain. And the uniform, while nice to have and hopefully most will at some point, is not a requirement. Many units in other places only use basic colored shorts and shirts and a neckerchief. IF we really think that our basic program is viable and important, we will find a way to deal and also to work on positive feedback whenever we can.

Well here is an absurdity on its own. Are there ANY verifiable indications that anybody "can control the sexual identity of someone?" I do not think you are likely to find any such believable or provable method. Just saying. Of course, this whole thing is beyond the pale anyway, as the fact is, that there is no absolute way to keep warped personalities out of the program, no matter how many barriers are put in place. And the fact that the percentage of vases, compared to overall membership numbers, is lower than all, or almost all other similar groups makes the situation even more bazaar. I continue to wonder how taking societal issues from another era into the current one and rendering judgement is in any way rational or justified. I have to ask how many of the claimants were offered various options at the time, but officials outside of Scouting, or the families themselves chose to not pursue it, and let the perpetrator go, or basically "ran them out of town". A few may have ended up mysteriously disappearing or being found in a ditch too. But, how justify now penalizing the BSA for who knows how many societal judgement errors, or perceived errors today? I realize I am likely being too rational for the everything is either black or white judges. Again, this would not even be happening in almost any other country in the world.

Take a look at this most recent posting from FB in the Chumash District of VCC. The co-founder of the troop like to say, "Get 'em out there". And they do, and share it with others if they ask, with proper training. This troop is three years old, started with two groups of Web's and some dedicated parents, two of them Eagles. The youth, as cubs were already doing small scale trail work. Now, they are working with serious stuff, and the FS loves them, as should the public. But they do not look for kudos, they just serve; they "Get 'em out there!" https://www.facebook.com/groups/573954530008979/?multi_permalinks=

To the ambulance chasers: At some point the turnip patches will go fallow.

I am a natural skeptic, and I take only about 10 percent of what I see on these pages as something to more than peruse. Having been on this board longer than most, I watched the drama between a number of posters that became sometimes almost abusive, and often hard to fathom or believe. The tendency of too many of us, and I am sure I have so exhibited at times, is to become bull headed and not willing to "listen" and "consider". This in turn leads to stalemates and often jaded attitudes and eventually to lack of involvement. But it also often becomes a crusade by the few, the ones that are like the proverbial dog with its bone. I cannot help but fear we have a few posters on here that may be foxes in the henhouse, pushing snippets of rumor and negative issues from the drawn out legal issues. Some seem almost to be virtually laughing and smiling at the worst of the possible outcomes. As I keep trying to stay focussed on local program, I hope that the more rational and silent supporters may somehow find a voice.

I find myself wondering where are all the "champions" or "connected" supporters of Scouting at this point? Those people that call on BSA to be on hand for public events; those people that reach out to BSA for service and that benefit from all the Eagle and other projects? Where are the loud braggart pols that line their public image with their support of Scouting or even that they were or are Scouters or Eagles? Where are the legal experts that should be able to combat the overreach of the lawyers that only want to grow rich off the mistakes of a group that has given so much to our society in the past century and a little? When are the voices of reason that can shed some balanced and fair justice going to appear? Can those youth deprived of a fine program, one that has contributed far more to society than most, sue the lawyers that drag their knuckles through the mud while leaning out of their ambulances? It would be different if BSA had denied making mistakes or had simply said too bad. But all, or most of us on here, and on other scout panels know how much more BSA has done to try to combat the sleazy people that work to prey on others, especially youth groups. I understand that our legal system is very much responsible for this type of illogical and overly zealous legal attack. Still, why do we not fix it, making it back into the actual scale of justice that is intended, rather than a bludgeon of destruction and a money grab? We can only hope that somehow, we in the trenches can survive, and that we elder Scouters will have passed enough to our younger followers to somehow keep the compass needle on target.

Looking past the very murky comments by some here, I cannot comprehend the idea of removing Character Building from the program. Of course, the lawyers and some of their litigants missed that boat a long time ago, or we would not be in this position now. Of course, in almost any other country that is part of the World Organization, this would not be able to be happening, as they have more rational legal systems that do not allow this kin of BS. Lets face it, we live in a society that has far too many people that have learned to play the blame game, and a legal system that exacerbates it. As someone already has stated, what about all the other far worse youth serving groups who have done far less to mitigate these issues? Sadder yet is that even after these slimeballs have managed to gut a program that is overall far more positive than many for youth development, the people that are never going to actually be held accountable, the actual perpetrators, are still going to be out there. This disaster will do nothing to get rid of these people.