skeptic

No issue with first name with adults, and I feel if an honorific is applicable, it is a good idea, but Mr. etc is okay. I do ask my leaders to introduce me to youth as Mr., as I just feel it is the proper method, as I was raised. I had one scout that no matter what, wanted to use my first name for some reason, but ironically he always introduced me as Mr. Like many old guy here, past scouts, some now in their 50's still address me as Mr.

Sorry, but the article is misleading, and injects a great deal of suggestion of "possible" things that are drawn from the book On My Honor that was published decades ago now. Also, it tries to suggest that this was a widely occurring thing throughout the program, when numerous investigations have show it was not, and also overlooks admission of error and poor judgement by BSA to start with and efforts to counsel victims that have been discovered. We also have the huge change in the YP training since this all actually occurred, none of which is noted. We come back to the same issue, over and over again. BSA admits making errors and has worked to put barriers in that were not there. They "have" paid money out and also counseled and have an open offer to continue to do so. Compared to most other youth groups, they are an open book and have a far lower occurrence of documented cases, and many of those are connected to perpetrators that are also traced to other groups. Our society tends to ignore the realities of human nature and somehow expect BSA and others to somehow absolutely stop very devious and warped perpetrators. That is not possible, thus the need to assure YP barriers are always in place and that as accurate investigation as possible is made when these things are reported in order to assure as much as possible that the event(s) are accurate and not attempts to embarass or hurt someone that they do not like or that disciplined them in some way. It is the total hyper sensationalism that is the real problem, and just like reality TV, for some reason, much of the public eats it up, even to the levels we are seeing in the national political scene. Just my opinion, but I have never forgotten a time when I was subbing in a middle school class with an odd table configuration that put some students away from easy access. A girl, I think 8th grader, asked a question on a math assignment and I had to lean across the girl next to her to point at something for clarity. My sleeve touched the head of the girl nearest the aisle, and she started saying that I was touching her. Fortunately, the girl being helped told her to stop it and shut up. But I have never forgotten that, obviously. It made me paranoid to an extent and very defensive, assuring I was "never" alone with students and telling them to stay out of the classrooms at lunch or something, and also immediately standing outside in full view if they came in anyway. It is really sad that we have reached this point in society where normal human activity is made to be suspect by some. Younger kids are even more effected in that their natural innate desire for attention and tendency to want to hug adults is no discouraged. Have you ever seen the hurt eyes of a second grader when kept at a distance by an adult in charge when they try to engage? And still, things DO happen, but in most cases the barriers work, and that needs to be made known and the outliers need to be punished. Talking to the wall I am sure, at least for a few that have decided that BSA, the Catholics, and now most likely the LDS Church, among others, are all predators and should be flagellated in the public square, even at the expense of beneficial programs that are overwhelmingly safer than they have ever been.

So, just for a comparison, here is a link to a discussion of the McMartin fiasco. A lot of issues to review, many which may shed some light here. http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcmartin/mcmartinaccount.html Most importantly, note the residual effects of ruined lives and very possibly emotionally traumatize children AND adults.

This, in my opinion, is one of the worst examples of what once was called the "yellow press". It uses only hypersensitive statements and leaves out most of the real efforts clear back to the 20's to stop these people. Remember that was before our super-sensitive society was open to massive misleading or partially documented public sensationalism. And this article leaves out , as noted much of the complete story, instead reaching for the Mormon Church as an added target so as to make it more highly attention getting. I wonder if we should turn the clock back to the Tea Pot scandals, or maybe bring back the "McMartin case" and reintroduce it under current standards we seem now to accept?

So, basically, the lawyers are running up bills and trying to eat each other, so to speak while those of us that actually care are left in the wind without any real idea how to procede, other than to keep the local units running? Am I about right? As I have stated before; this would not likely be happening almost anywhere else in the world, as our legal/tort system is really messed up and cares only for the money involved. Just my old, and tired opininon of course. .

If you think seriously about it, this is long overdue. Not only saved money and resources, but you can find the section you need and print it and not have to buy a book seldom used for other than on occasion.

In our local paper this morning was an article about changes in the LDS handbook. Much of what is noted in the article seems to follow some of the thinking involved in this discussion. I find it a bit ironic that they leave BSA and then appear to be doing similar things in their review of disciplines.

There is a certain amount of irony in BP's tendency away from militarism in Scouting. Of course, even at its inception, the take of on his Scouting book for the military was purposely changed to be more focused on service and peaceful patriotism. In that era fo course, it was a difficult line to walk, and the two world wars reflected on this. Still, there are indications that many who served in the military in those darkest days remembered the undergirding Scout tenants, and some stories suggest that at times the international Scout sign meant something to combatants on both sides. How accurate these stories are is not to be known, but it is possible to do your duty and still be honorable and loyal to both the country and respect our larger humanity.

One possible avenue of MB counselor qualification might take off on what was common when I was a scout. Most teachers were automatically considered to be qualified counselors, if they chose to do it. Some really were not at the level needed, but they community mostly viewed them as "trustworthy and honest", so that was fine. There were many very qualified counselors that spent in depth time working with scouts, and those were likely some of the incidences that bring the stories of life work and so on. The insane liability issues has been discussed ad infinitum, and unless the tort system is completely rebuilt in this country, it will only get worse (an opinion). In the meantime, credentialled and licensed experts might be proactively approached to become proper counselors, having been vetted already by their profession, but still needing to do it again with BSA. The point is that many might be amenable with the proper approach. Some MB's should be absolutely required to have heavily vetted counselors, ones that have the knowledge of the subject at a level that is not simply cursory. Our educational systems, as most of us know, have many soft spots. A good example is my own California credential, Clear, Single Subject, K-12 + continuing educ, in "Social Science; with Reading addended. My BA is in Geography from UCR, and my teaching credential trough CSULB in the mid 1970's. I student taught Geography for 7th grade, and World History for 9th, as well as Reading remediation, 7-9. Yet my credential initially did not include the Reading, which cost me one of the few jobs available in 1975. Yet, while I obviously was a step up for Reading, that same Credential allowed me to teach "any" Social Science, including Poli-Sci, which I never took even a beginning class in, and other peripheral Social Sciences that I only had cursory courses in. The point of this ramble is that our systems continue to expect often the impossible from those willing to take it on, but then penalize them for mistakes. More importantly, the general misperceptions in our society of "responsibility" is badly skewed by society itself, always looking for scapegoats, rather than valid accountability. Still, we who persevere can still do our utmost to assure qualified people work on MB's, paying attention to the "too easy passing" and putting the Trustworth onus back on the Scout. We are still the gatekeepers, and if we try to do our jobs, fairly and with open eyes, most issues can be dealt with. No amount of rules on paper or in computer files takes our responsibility away. If we choose to be mentors, then we need to do it as best we can within our own honor systems.

Odd that this quote from a comment on the Texas HS football player that took an official down with a blindside because he was kicked out, seem to fit this too . "You can't condemn the the entire team for the actions of 1person."

The most important people to effect change actually are the COR's, but only if they actually do their jobs. There have been incidences in some councils where a group of COR's rose up and got support of the majority and threw out an executive, or executives. Unfortunately, most exec do not appear to want the COR's to understand their power. Like I noted above, often the EB is put into closed session which normally is then not open to the full board which includes all the COR's. However, those not allowed can still execute a coup of sorts with the right efforts by the right people. Does not happen often, but it can. I understand it happened in the GWC a long time back, and they threw out the Exec and his assistant. I think that it was also COR's that made the Chicago area able to rise up against the camp issues, among other things. IF that is the case, we may want to consider pushing that a bit more. I do know the STEM merit badges at summer camp are fairly popular. Other than the nature related ones that are also Eagle, the most popular one is Space Exploration. They also have photography regularly and have done Electronics. But I wonder how we might integrate the idea of Stem Scouting into the program successfully, as I have not seen it come out of the introductory stage. Maybe it just needs to be incorporated into the regular options, rather than being separated?

I have only served in three councils, and time in TAC was not really more than on base troop level, and it was limited. A transfer took me away, and did not return until 1976. Since GWC?WLC and VCC. The biggest issue with local volunteers and professionals is disconnect in many cases, or poor communication. There is no consistent method of getting basic info out anymore, especially now. But the council web site is pretty much useless as there is not consistent updating. Calendars are not dependable, and staff now consists of two pro's, and two or three office people. Our district is covered by the council exec as well. Over the years, I have observed the ignoring of volunteers by a number of pro's, twice the head one, and often the district, though much of the time it was more him not getting updated by his bosses, or simply overwhelmed. The COR's seldom are made aware of meetings, and often they are made into executive modes that does not include all. The current exec seems like he is trying to reach out to them, as he has to try with the lack of staff. Scary time, but are some positives just the same. We have seen some really novel service the past few months, and some units are doing okay. Ours are not, however, and I am concerned with recharter, especially since next year is the troop's centennial. Not sure we will get very far beyond the beginning of the second hundred year. But will not throw in the proverbial towel.

IF that is the case, we may want to consider pushing that a bit more. I do know the STEM merit badges at summer camp are fairly popular. Other than the nature related ones that are also Eagle, the most popular one is Space Exploration. They also have photography regularly and have done Electronics. But I wonder how we might integrate the idea of Stem Scouting into the program successfully, as I have not seen it come out of the introductory stage. Maybe it just needs to be incorporated into the regular options, rather than being separated?

For some reason I find myself thinking that one of the reasons we are in our current position is that our legal system has allowed the sixties to be dragged to the current era. That may say more than some are willing to admit?

While I was received with open arms as an ASM in an on base troop in Germany in 1966, I lost my involvement due to transfer to remote station and then return to college after going home and getting out. It was also the middle of the negative "uniform" response already noted in this piece, and the world was chaotic and the hope of the Kennedy challenge was lost due to his and the other prominent leader assassinations. I attempted to become reinvolved in 1975 in Orange County, CA but the office ignored me. In 1976, I tried again in the old GWC and was grabbed, along with my ex after attending a COR in Malibu Canyon. Have been doing it ever since. I was fortunate to find an avid, if a bit "different" group in that encounter in Canoga Park, "The Patrones". They gave me my first adult training at Camp Slausen, and they had some pretty impressive, and eccentric members; Bob White, Skipper, and Mike Brandt among them. There was also a member, Tadeuzs Borowski, a fabulous and great Scouter who was an international star as well. He was the equivalent of Eagle in Poland prior to WWII and then particpated in the Scouting Underground, along with his wife. She was captured and spent time in a camp and he escaped to England an flew as a Polish pilot over Germany. They later were major playes in a group called Scouting in Exile that perpetuated the scouting programs of the dissolved groups behind the Iron Curtain. I was privileged to attend a couple of their programs and still have Tad's short bio in my Scouting files. My ex and I were honored to visit them in their home in Canoga Park once or twice where they shared some of their Scouting experiences and a bit of his work from Disney. Moving to Ventura in 1977 I fell into a SM position through my job; the store manager was my boss and the committee chair. I am still there, struggling to keep us going along with a few others. The unit turns 100 in December of 2021, if we can survive this latest challenge and I can get some young leaders to join us with the current challenges. Camping and hiking have always been the mainstays of the troop, though they spent a decade or more as an NRA junior club as well. When I took over, we could still get them out with only one adult, if necessary, which we all know is not the best, but often kept units alive in harder times. And we did get out regularly and began a two decade+ backpack program which included Philmont twice, and Mt. Whitney and the John Muir Trail. Also five trips to PTC for me, and a sixth last year for the Historian Summit. Somehow we scratch our way forward. If anyone on here is from my area and thinks they might want to re immerse themselves in the challenges, please let me know. We have a supportive CO and many new and different opportunities with the needed leaders. Obviously, my age is a factor now, and in the past five years has smacked me with unexpected health issues. While I would love to have members from my own unit become reinvolved, any willing to honestly work with the current options and challenges are welcome, especially if they might have experience. But even those with little, but willing to carry the torch, are welcome with proper YP vetting. One thing I wanted to share is that those that see the basic promise of the larger program need to get involved. I watched many of the best mentors drop out in the early 80s as the political issues began and the backlash against the Vietnam Era hit us, along with a disconnected National Council who lost site of the main goals. That has already been partly addressed here.

That would be great. Thank you.

I am looking forward to the next post. Will you have the entire work available for download or something as well. It is something I would want to add to my own historical archives, which includes a number of little known essays and such from the last couple of decades of turmoil. For those that may have the stamina, you seem to have left open a number of jump off points for more detail. Is that something to which we may look forward as well?

And it is not difficult to find numerous similar representations that are lauded, and partly because they are real life. Life and society as a whole is often dark and mean, or selfish and too often accepts the worst of itself as okay, especially in the "entertainment" industries, which includes sports, both actual professional and the pseudo college teams. Finding our way through and around the mazes of a hypocritical world is a challenge, and it is one that Scouting attempts to navigate, in spite of the numerous crossed branches in the roads and trails.

Over on the FB Talk About Scouting a similar unending he said/did, and so on is going on. There is not answer to any of this that will satisfy a few, even if the BSA does disappear, as we know it. One comment that nudged me though was the idea we need to be "fair" to the victim. Now of course this revolved partly around whether or not some of them are even actual victims and brings us back to the "McMartin scenario", but accepting that this occurred, because we know we have such people in society, "what is fair?" What amount of money will erase the scar(s) of actual abuse? Does ruining a mostly positive program that serves the community in so many ways in a positive manner salve the scars on the ids of the real victims? Then there is the connected what is fair to the "lawyers" who we know care less about the final results, even for the victims? Should not our court/legal system offer a valid response to this that puts the actual victims first and limits, period, the amount the lawyers can take? Finally, what is fair to the larger organization, especially when they are trying to work with the mess, and have admitted error and poor decisions, and already offered open ended counseling and such to verified victims? We put felons in prison for, in most cases, allotted sentences. And theory says that they have paid their debt, and can rejoin society, though we know that is sometimes not the case. Still, there are limits on many types of felony sentences, and even some civil offenses. I know I am barking at the moon, but at least it takes it out of my craw for the moment. Reality is that in our current society there is no win/win, only uneven retribution for the sake of retribution and grudges.

Yep; I have to admit that if I could, I would bar Prager from my FB page, but they apparently do not fit the mold for being able to block. I just delete posts if possible. They are so biased as to be almost liberal as they move around the circle. And, as noted, they also are NOT a university, and purposely try to lead people to think they have an intellectual leg up.

While this may or may not be the place for this comment, and maybe it is making myself a target, but I have to wonder about a society that will allow this to happen to a group that has done and continues to do so much for the communities across the country, while so many continue to allow the cesspools in many parts of government and the entertainment industry. While the issues that are the cause of this problem with BSA are real, it seems to me that the I would say 99%+ positive record of BSA should put them in a better public position. But, for some reason, people jump on the infinitesimal poor things over the past fifty plus years, even as they sit on the benches in parks, and enjoy the plant boxes in myriad school, and the refurbished cemeteries in many locations, and numerous other contributions of Eagle projects. They cast aspersions on the entire program based on a different era, one that compared to much of society of the time, was still far better than most groups, and seem to find it okay to destroy the organization and all its history of positive citizenship development and community service, just so lawyers can make money on the backs of a few, even though BSA would and has reached out to those that came forward individually, with counseling and so on. Meanwhile, we see powerful and wealthy individuals sweep far worse things under carpets, and do little to try and stop child trafficking and prostitution, nor fix the numerous welfare agencies that are over-taxed and allow far worse to occur than that for which BSA is being ruined. I am having a hard time balancing right and wrong anymore. Humans are so many faceted that there is no way to deal with all their myriad failures of conscience and actions. We will never fix some people's warped ways, nor will we eradicate the worst in society completely. Just as we will never get completely rid of the common cold or stop the power of nature in general. Enough with the negative. I need, we all need, to move forward and if we believe in the overall goodness of the program and its foundation, then we will fight to keep finding our way.

And there is info out there that seems to me as bad or worse. This is not all over the media, but I bet the issue still exists. https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2016/12/22/teachers-who-sexually-abuse-students-still-find-classroom-jobs/95346790/

Those that are not BSA should be very aware of this. It is only one of the internet searches that indicate the ambulance chaser list of possible sources. And most of these do not have the safeguards of BSA still. Just not seen as the deepest pocket, but they will continue unless the court system and legal system makes some checks and balances, while still keeping real victims able to sue. https://www.levylaw.com/sex-abuse-lawsuits/

The point is not that things were done poorly in an earlier time, and since that time, huge strides have been made to try to fix it. No amount of rules will stop it completely, but the responses can be more real and accepted in the larger society. The issue is that, since you mention Slavery, that reparations are never going to fix the past; nor is killing the BSA, a group that is far more good than evil, for youth and the society. But, unless our legal system gets redirected, this imbalance will get worse, and we will see attacks on many more overly positive and beneficial groups. Meanwhile, we have to try to work with the system and be sure to stay in the guidelines completely. It would just be nice if the media would make an effort to tell the complete story, rather than only the "juiciest" part, or most sensational.

So, while it truly concerns me, and we are struggling even more due to the pandemic, but we CAN work locally and emphasize the best of Scouting. As we see noted on here, Scouting is local. Still, I actually like the idea of finding a way to get a valid and actually watched source to do the "complete" story. That would include digging out stats from the twentieth century, from the teens, and making comparisons of youth groups of the periods, maybe by decade or something. Also, it would discuss the realities of society's approach to these types of things, again by decades or something, pointing out where the big change in view began and grew. It also would discuss the "fact" BSA did more than most for the time to try to keep the worst elements out, especially with the totally unprecedented Ineligible Volunteer Files; and it would hopefully show how on occasion, before computers, they were able to keep some of the predators at bay. Following this would be the huge changes starting in the late 80's, including the challenges of the Dale issue and its post attacks. It would discuss in depth the continued growth of YP and how the BSA is the model almost all look to for their own developments. I have tried a number of times to guilt local news outlets into going beyond the shallow, sensationalism that is common today. But how to get that high level article, one that will as accurately as possible give the complete story and consequences, is lost to me. It truly appears that the media is not ready to actually write this in a balanced and nuanced way, dealing with the fact of societal changes, especially those from over thirty years ago when families often preferred to not go public, and local authorities had a different approach unless it was someone from a powerful or prominent family. S So, how does this come to fruition? Is there someone that regularly reads this forum that can somehow make this happen? I surely do not have the contacts. Yet, based on the comments I noted from the recent feedback on the Huffington Post's thread from AOL, there are a lot of people that are on the side of common sense and recognize the legal predator angle.