skeptic

Yesterday, trying to clean up "stuff" I found a group of printed out opinion pieces from around the BSA's centennial year. Hard copies of various writers and public figures, as well as just old timers and silent, distanced supporters. One of them is the shared explanation of Terry as to why he has chosen his particular course in relation to BSA. It reminded me as to why I originally chose to join the group, and also that we all have our own views and ways of support and ways to change our compasses in relation to Scouting. Perhaps this might be reshared? I can scan it, but it would be easier and maybe even allow a current comment from Terry?

Ventura County Council. It was the first official camp after our founding in June, 2021, opening in 1923. We lost it during the Depression to a project to put U.S. 399 over the mountains from Ventura to the Bakersfield area. Most of what was then 399 stopped at the base of the mountains on the Bakerfield side. Anyway, an agreement was reached for the camp property, including guaranteed lease for property in the Lockwood Valley area near Mount Pinos and Frazier Park. The Lees who had a turkey ranch in Lockwood gave a small plot of land to the scouts, and leases were developed up canyon from there for what is today's camp, Three Falls, with some other additions over the years.

We had one in Camp Gray, our first camp in the twenties, and he continued for a time to the second camp, 3-Falls, still in use, in the thirties. the kids and staff loved him, and he was duly missed when he decided to chuck it in. I think he may have been an army Army or Navy cook at one time.

(deleted) No more comments, though maybe see if any actual new info shows up with actual solutions that are balanced. To answer your other rude question, at least twice we turned someone in for possible abuse, and investigations were done. It was not sexual abuse though. We also contacted one family in regard to a teen scout that was abusing another youth. The parents refused to accept, but the authorities were told in regard to his being in public schools. We did our due diligence if we had information, but we cannot make authorities follow up, and too often, as in some of these cases has shown, it was not just the BSA that dropped the ball. But government is protected it seems and are let off the hook. I hope they come to a fair and rational outcome, and it includes little or no compensation for certain legal people.

(deleted) Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything. (deleted). Just my opinion, and I understand you suffered considerable based on what you have shred. Not to be crude, but if someone said here is a billion dollars, now leave it alone, would that somehow cure you? I doubt it, but you, and others with similar stories would have simply had a hand in causing harm to others through the unfeeling system of vengeance. Again, just my perspective, and it applies not just to this unfortunate case. Vengeance at the expense of others who had no hand in the original crime is wrong, almost as wrong as the original crimes. Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA (deleted). None of you will ever be healed, and I have no real solution, other than trying to make the systems work to protect others going forward and bringing predators to justice when the actual perpetrators are still around to be punished. Again, just the way it seems to me.

"The official victims committee, which is known as the tort claimants committee and is charged with acting as a fiduciary for all abuse victims, estimates the value of some 82,500 sexual abuse claims at about $103 billion." For some reason, this statement really annoys me. "The Value?"

I keep seeing individuals comment that BSA has to somehow guarantee this can never happen again. That is not a likely possibility, as we live in the real world of humans, and they are prone to a wide range of less than positive actions and ideas. There can never be an absolute, but the barriers and safeguards can be put in place and closer awareness should become a regular part of our program, both as adults and youth. We have just had a local case in a private school that is held in high esteem. Now, there is an investigation and digging from the past. It never goes away, because perversions are a reality of the human race.

Okay, what am I missing in regard to the Biden connection? Did they file some kind of legal involvement? I looked at the partners on the link given, and currently are no BSA groups that I saw, though I may have missed something. Also did not see anything related to Scouting in general, or for that matter hardly any major youth serving group.

One, is you Cynical. You have suggested that somehow BSA did not do enough to stop this from happening. Reality is that no matter what BSA did or does, it will never be able to stop abuse entirely, other than simply not have a program or interaction with youth of any kind. Society, in the past, and still, looks the other way much of the time. Why, because it is part of the seamier side of the human animal and the cultures in which we live. You expect BSA, or The Catholic Church, or someone to guarantee that none of these terrible things can or will ever happen. That is not possible, and surely you know that. BSA is just the current easy target, and the "vultures" are already peering through their beady eyes at the other youth groups, once they finish with BSA. And as someone else pointed out in the reparation comparison, you cannot change what happened in the past, nor can you legitimately hold the country, or the corporation, or the church accountable for things today in which they had no say or little or no influence. The larger issue is rally this idea that somehow, by ruining someone or some corporation, or some church, or some group of mostly civic minded people for the black sheep that slipped in we make someone or society whole. Not reality, nor is it ever going to fix it all. A reasonable system that deals fairly and within rational limits deters the worst perpetrators and encourages better vigilance. Perfection is impossible, and absolute deterrence of evil is also impossible in societies as we know them. JMO of course. But, please stop suggesting that I, or others with a bit more rational view do not care about the victims. We simply do not feel that making current youth victims in a different manner is fixing the problem. And, T & N, nor any of the other victims will ever be whole, no matter how much they may end up, after the vultures take theirs. One could ask where the saving and making whole of the lost souls of the porn industry is, especially those that prey on the youngest off the streets and so on. What is being done about hose ruined lives? I suspect that there are plenty of possible targets to blame and hold responsible, but they are backed by big power and dark money, and few will even consider taking that on. What about the perpetrators of suggestive advertising aimed at the young? We know pretty much who is responsible, but little is done to enforce those laws. So now, I will attempt to simply watch from the sidelines as this no win argument ( it is no longer a discussion for the most part).

This whole back and forth is futile, as we have a few that simply want the BSA Corporate to somehow take total responsibility for a societal sickness for which nobody has a cure, and likely never will beyond simply no interaction between adults and children. The reality that BSA often was acting at the time on the direction of outside authorities, and also families that chose to not chance the victim being publicly visible due to the legal circus, as well as misdirected fear of embarrassment. Yes, in some instances it appears, though we often do not know for sure why, that someone in BSA may or did choose to not follow up properly. But, in many cases they were apparently put off by local authorities and family decisions. The actual victim then was left in the lurch to deal with their trauma with little or no help at the time, and later with emotional adult problems. It seems to me that the only fair thing then, since in the larger sense it is a failure of human nature and society, then we should have a tax on everyone to defray the emotional costs of therapy and so on, since reality is that society is primarily at fault, even more so than the corporate BSA, right behind the actual predators. And that is where the reparations comparison falls. Some how, society, in a different era, failed people, whether youth, slaves, or races, allowing obvious or at least noticeable emotional and physical damage to occur. And, no amount of retroactive compensation for that damage will ever actually make those victims whole, nor will it stop similar aberrations in the future. Mankind is really not necessarily particularly kind, and there are always going to be those that try to take advantage in some way or another, no matter how many barriers are in place. When the rules are not followed, or someone gets a pass because of connections or money, penalties should be harsh, but not ruinous. Just a view that some here will never feel to be reasonable or even rational. Most on here are not against some type of compensation and aid to victims, but they do not want it at the expense of the overall positive elements of the program or the opportunities for youth. In the end, a few will NEVER be happy with the outcome.

Okay, while I still feel that the tenor of the discussion from Cynical Scouter is not just cynical, but often vicious. That is me though. I might have a different opinion if I were to discuss with him directly. I saw a sea change in the direction of National by NOT putting a professional into the Chief position. I think that wherever possible, the volunteers should be more visible and have more sway. On the other hand, I admit to having had a very poor interaction with some National level volunteers in 2010, gentlemen from the OA. I had approached them in regard to my view on alternate adult requirements that allowed dedicated men who put their "whole" family first, but were key to their units, especially the outdoor program, but did not have the flexibility to spend a week in summer camp without shortchanging their whole family due to limited vacation time. That opinion was based on a fine ASM who was thoroughly trained, including all the outdoor courses, including backpacking training with first aid. He was the lead for over three years on many weekend and 3 day outings, but he had two younger daughter and only limited vacation. So, he chose to spend that vacation with his whole family. I put him up for adult membership when his son became eligible. I wrote the reason why I felt they should induct him, making the point of his pushing 40 days and nights of camping and backpacking with the troop, and his advanced training, including Trail Boss and the noted first aid. I suggested that the intent of membeship for adults was their demonstration of support of the outdoor program, which he did in spades. I had seen men inducted with only one or two summer camp experiences and almost no weekend or short term camping and hiking. To me, he was far a far better example. Oh, I should note that twice, before this, he had gone to camp with his personal tools and done needed repairs, as he was a welder and steel worker. Anyway, the portly high level OA men with whom I spoke talked me down and basically belittled the idea and said there could be no exceptions, period. Well, that of course is not true in and of itself. The ":Chief of the Fire", the council Executive, has the option to override that requirement, though ours at the time would not, refusing to even consider it. So, his son was elected, but his dad could not go through the ordeal with him. The man finally worked out his schedule, with his wife's help, as well as earing more vacation time for longevity, and then he was accepted. But that was almost three years later, and it left a very bad taste in his mouth and all of my unit adults, and even the youth that understood what happened. And I have had to deal with a number of really bad district executives and at least two very poor Council exec's. Thus, the skeptic part tag. So, I will try to overlook my annoyance at the tone, and accept that most on this forum still are for the BSA's survival and finding a better path. Please accept my apology for perhaps being a bit too judgemental. Thanks for the time.

" My memory is that J. P. Morgan provided that money and that the BSA is paying it off. Until you can provide other factual information, I see no reason to not believe the BSA. " Surely, most that still follow this whole heavily skewed discussion understand that NOTHING that reflects anywhere positively on the BSA side will be believed or accepted by Cynical. Yes, I purposely leave the second part of his tag off, as I cannot fathom him actually being a Scouter, and he shows no connections in his profile. He may be, but he long ago appears to have lost the very basic precepts, based on his ongoing vendetta on here. I could be wrong, and just not understand; but that is the impression I get. I do though thank him for the difficult to find info he furnishes, even if it is always presented in a negative manner. Other than the legal things he and T & N share, I personally feel this whole thread has pretty much become their field to plow. At least T & N shares his reasoning and seems to want a survival in some manner. JMO of course.

Trying to get some clarity. First, now the number pending is under 1000; is that just stuff to be added, or did they do some major editing? On the docs included, most of the cases seem to be in New York, Arizona, Hawaii, and scattered otherwise. On the lists of debtors, I do not understand how it could/would include the Catholic Church AND LDS in the same claim. Is it standard legal practices to use this terminology; "Does 1-5 whose identities are unknown to Plaintiff" That would seem they are saying we really do not know, so lets just put some empty spots to add people to later.

Got an email reminder from Scouting Wire, and just noted the link for "careers". So I looked at it. Here is the page that came up. The open jobs surprised me, as we are in a tight place and so found it interesting, especially the amount that appear to be executives. https://www.scouting.org/careers/open-positions/

No, lawyers that abuse the legal system and search for "victims" with vague promises and misleading claims are worse. IF they were only going after the actual abusers or predators, they would not fall into that category, but hey are likely doing almost as much harm as the original predator by dragging emotional pain out of the past and causing many to have to again deal with it. As noted before, no amount of money will salve this, and the destruction of BSA serves no purpose, other than one of greed by these lawyer vultures. None of this is ever going to stop the predators, as they will always find a way and will never go away. The idea that somehow BSA can absolutely stop them is simply ignorant. It is a dirty and greed shaded vendetta.

First, it is simply sad that this discussion is even being made. So, if done with the right care, could LC's rewrite their own Charter to include a primary method of distribution of assets, one that does not have NC as the only option? Yes, the vultures noted above would scream manipulation, but if it is a State sanctioned non profit, does not the state have the first word?

That is of course the truth and reality. But, our society seems unwilling to find the fair and better solution, depending on our warped legal system to somehow salve the wounds with money and vindictive decisions. Meanwhile, as pointed out by a number of posters, the bulk of the iceberg remains hidden and dangerous, mostly in the very places that should be the safest havens, the families and their immediate social constructs. No manner of revenge or societal water-boarding will solve the larger and most hidden elements of this. On the other hand, we should continue to find viable ways to keep it at bey. Strengthen, as we find ways, YP. More importantly, establish a monitoring system as part of it, and try to assure it is in place. We will NEVER eliminate the darkness that lurks in the human animal or condition. And completely ruining BSA, or any other mostly positive element of society only makes the darker shadows more likely to grow. JMPO of course.

And there is part of the problem. A small group of people "prefer" that every lurid innuendo is thrown into the public eye. They do not care about anything but money and media attention. What is actually fair, balanced, and in the best interest of the greatest number involved does not matter in the least. Back to the local trenches.

The local council comment uses the term, "must be realistic". There lies the rub.

Let me simply ask please. Can anyone realistically; Make any of the claimants whole, if their claims are accurate? How much effect was there from families if the report was made? How much outside pressure from societal forces occurred when reported? How, especially when BSA was not yet a required reporter, were they to override the community responses common at the time? Today, IF the actual perpetrator(s) or even their families are still around, is anything being done to bring them into the case? And, if the facts should suggest that the family, or someone in it, was aware of the propensity that led to the abuse, should they too then be held accountable along with the BSA, any authorities that chose to look away or pass it off as minor? Can ANYONE seriously suggest that killing the BSA and other youth serving organizations EVER STOP perpetrators? NO; they are part of human nature, though the darker part. Should this whole mess lead to a complete restructuring of our legal system so as to take away much of the good old boy, money, and power factors?inally, can most of us with rational thought really want the current youth to be punished for the crimes of past adults and organizational problems? For me, the answer to most of these is no, other than the last one, realistically. Further, the ruin of the BSA will serve no purpose, other than that of the vulture lawyers. ALL of us with any kind of longevity know that the community good the BSA gives far outweighs most of this. We also know that BSA is only a target among many, but one the lawyers found easier to attack. Now some of them are already salivating over the Y, Boys and Girls Club, and 4-H, as well as GSA.

"Also 402 for "YMCA", 167 for "Boys and Girls Club" , 89 for "Boy Scouts of America", 9 for "Police Athletic League", 5 for "United Way", 5 for "Red Cross". So, it appears that based on this both the Y and the Boys and Girls clubs in theory should be on the hook too? I do not understand if these details are accurate why we are not seeing something related to the other groups. I do not want them damaged either, but why should BSA take the full impact?

As if the YP issue was not complicated enough with worrying about adult or older youth. This article is definitely fodder for consideration. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/201904/sexual-behaviors-in-children

Maybe, in today's atmosphere. Things once considered just normal life's activity today often draw strange responses, especially when they get brought up in a multigenerational interaction. Kind of like the idea that somehow we survived some possibly bad ideas such as riding in the back of trucks with little or nothing to keep us in place. Or, as foolish dare devils jumping off of high places into unknown water, or drag racing. I find myself wondering how I ever made it out of childhood with not bike helmet, no seat belts, no required life jackets for poor or non swimmers, or even just playing in the streets at dusk. Yet we did.

I continue to have an issue with the use of the "broad brush" that puts ALL of us in the same basket, even though most of us would have had no idea about what was happening, especially in some other state or location. YES, there were huge judgement errors made and maybe even a few purposefully. But that should not brand the majority, in this case the very large majority of adults and, yes, some scouts, as responsible for it all. I suspect if you were to delve into many councils and units going back decades, and found those "in the know" you might find how many of the "bad actors" actually were removed or barred. That includes in units and within the youth ranks. Not only do these things actually seldom get wide public exposure due to their very nature, and the privacy of those involved, but other than assuring the report to the proper authority is made, it is none of our responsibility to make it public, especially if it would stigmatize anyone in error; and yes it could be unverified or even made up. Catch 22 of course.

Rational people or groups pick their legal fights if they can. Right now this is not a high level concern, especially since it would be immediately turned around to club them again.