skeptic

All the kabitzing about "reliable", "fair", "equitable", and so on, especially in relation to assets, is simply legalese. Few involved, especially the lawyers, can agree on much, if anything. Greed is the guiding principle, especially with most of the lawyers. But, even with some claimants I suspect, as if vetting was done thoroughly, some would be shown to be pretty much made up. Reality suggests, at least to me, that there is no end result that will find large satisfaction. And the idea that somehow destroying the 95%+ positive elements of BSA, or for that matter, any youth serving groups, is fair to ALL is nonsense. Humans are not capable of total real acceptance, and many are simply unable to see beyond their noses. JMHO of course.

There is much to suggest part of the name issue also had to do with Low not having a great "fondness" for BP's sister, who was the developer of Girl Guides, though, Olave became more in control after the marriage, I believe.

Of course some are false. If you think they are not, then you do not live in our warped world and legal system.

Normally? Where does that figure come from? What is normal, and how did it pop up? There is no normal, only greed and lawyer hype.

Seems obvious to me that the facility use method is a done deal. We are already on notice of that being now in effect and will be so ongoing. But they also are not kicking us out.

Ours has already informed us that we will move to the facilities model. Other than that, they assure us that they still consider us part of their ministry, just under a different format. Since we have out centennial in December, and just got a girl troop started, that is a positive note. We had an event last Sunday in which we helped and had a small presence, and all the elder congregation were thrilled to see us, as they usually are. It will really not make a huge difference.

I am not the tech or stat guy, but it would be interesting to see the youth membership for the years as well. From my reading, the peak of membership was the two decades after WWII. Also, is the date for the claim when it was files, or the year the offense may have occurred? That can sway the stats I would think. Interesting to me that you can see the sharp decline starting in the 90s. YP, or membership loss, or both. Also, where does the changes in societal view fit in, as well as the way authorities responded?

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What is interesting, at least in our area, many of the girls in Scouts BSA continue in GSUSA. A number of the first female Eagles already had garnered all the GS high level awards, including Silver.

I continue to find it odd that Mr. K. continues to post on Twitter after being indirectly chastised by the court. Meanwhile, he claims he did not approve some of the claims with his signature and had not idea that the aggregator would do such a thing. Is that much different then than Scout officials suggesting that they did not know that some abusers might find their way into the program? There is a likelihood that Mr. K. knew full well that by pawning it off into their hands that cutting corners would occur, as he has dealt with these people for a long time, and they are known for pushing the envelope and getting away with things if they can. Still, Mr. K. is surprised at the suggestion? Where is that bridge?😬

Actually, the city stood behind the scouts to start, but suddenly, they decided to leave them hanging by paying off the ACLU threats. So, from my view, when it was thrown out for lack of standing, then the ACLU owed the city the bribe money. Reality is and was that the actual good to the city and the area the Scouts offered with their care and upkeep, including the summer swim access and options for those accepting the rules, was a positive element, and those bringing the suit cared less about the benefit to the city or community. Selfish and frivolous; but most of these types of attacks, as that is what they are, fall into that category. JMO of course.

I cannot help but be reminded that dragging out and stalling are standard practice in our messed up legal system here. One great example might be the seeming indefinite lawsuit against the San Diego Council about use of Balboa Park, and then later Mission Bay. It took over a decade of wasted time, and then it was finally thrown out be a judge that actually made a decision. Meanwhile, San Diego paid the ACLU a large sum to get out out of the suit, and many youth were negatively impacted by lack of use in Balboa and for a time Mission Bay. I have often wondered if the City of San Diego ever sued to get their money back. But, as noted, I am sure that many can contribute similar stories, not necessarily Scouting related, but legal grandstanding and foot dragging to wear the system down.

Yes, these things did happen and were dealt with as well, though maybe not as soon as they should have been in some cases. Over the years, there have been instances of drunk leaders, leaders carrying firearms with not proper licenses, leaders and parents doing caravaning, even after it was recommended not to, units still driving kids in the backs of trucks and with improper insurance, or even none. These are all things that have happened and often were likely not even reported. But they are also reflective of what many in the larger population do regularly as well, in their jobs, in their interactions with neighbors, and on the roads. Scouts and Scouters, and the parents of the scouts are all human beings and often fall very short of the ideal. That is what we try to fix with the proper programs. Failure is too often a fact. Does that mean we should simply give up? Does it mean that we attach those failures and errors in judgment to every unit now and to possibly come? While we hope we can possibly be a bit above the madding crowd, but too often we still are not. That does not mean we cannot be. IF you feel, or ever felt, that the overall idea of Scouting will make better citizens and young people, then you should remember that when reading the anomalous stories that media pushes with bias and attempts to sensationalize, and try even harder. JMHO of course.

Anyone with rational thinking that is. There obviously are a few that seem to think it is, and has been, a huge issue, even though the "stats" would suggest otherwise. The trouble is, of course, is that those that believe that, or at least claim it, are very loud bayers and not particularly rational. I am not speaking of the actual victims that have valid claims and do exist, but the larger picture in comparative society. And, as discussed over and over, our legal system allows a great deal of overreach and irrational claims. Those that choose to not agree, that is your right, but please do not accuse me of not having concern or empathy, as that is simply not true.

So, if simply the location puts them at risk, does that mean the Forest Service, or even the city that owns the park with its numerous dark and secret areas can be held accountable and sued when something happens there? It comes back to who is the "real" perpetrator and if somehow the property owner could logically know that someone would cause harm on their property. If the church or school does not offer the "place", the predator will find one if possible, as it is their nature and no manner of barriers will stop them all. And the truth is that the largest percentage of abuse occurs within family homes and under the noses of others known to the family and victim.

Sorry, but I believes in dollars, period. He could care less about damage today based on past issues. Again, I do not see him as a good guy, simply a greedy on on a power trip. JMO of course.

It is more of a statement to those suggesting that somehow carrying YP beyond Scouting should be in the YP material. Perhaps I misread a few comments, but I got the impression a few thought National actually needed to put that idea into the program. So, my circuitous thinking is simply that we do not need National or anyone to tell us to live the Oath and Law and other precepts of the program beyond Scouting. I am old and confuse myself much of the time. I mean, I still tend to use the left handed, three finger Scout Sign handshake. But I get confused when confronted with the OA options, particularly since as a Vigil, I guess there is a separate finger grip. I just let the other person decide how many fingers, but I draw a line at toes.

Does it make a real difference? IF we claim to "live the Promise", do we need an official declaration or statement to carry it beyond the program? Just asking, as my life view has almost always been affected by my Scouting experience.

Sadly, this is pretty much accurate, especially here in our screwed up legal system. Until there is a major course correction in our systems, the problems will continue to show up and often play to the benefit of mostly the questionable legal people that prey on emotion and technical semantic manipulation.

Not to mention the 16 or 17 YO girls they may date. My HS GF was a sophomore when I was a senior. We cannot not simply ignore reality, only influence care and the lost idea of common sense. Nothing new about that in those ancient days. She turned 16 after I graduated. Did not stay together long after that, but we did for a while. I am sure that is an issue today as well.

What there is also is the, in theory, protection pullout in the handbook. There is a pretty good likelihood that many parents do not actually cover that with their scout. That is based on the observation from a collector that many of the books that have them, starting in the nineties or so, still have the pull outs in tact. I know that I have had scouts tell me their parents and them had not discussed it, though most claim to have seen it. That is not particularly inspiring of it being used. Now that I think about it, that might be something to add to leader training. Try to assure that the scout and parent actually DO review that pullout.

Okay, so using this premise, and based on the statistical percentages of Scouting compared to other youth serving groups, including governmental agencies, and your nightmare is truly frightening, since Scouting is on the low end of the percentage per capita. So, what are your thoughts beyond Scouting, which is seemingly NOT the worst problem? BSA, and now the Catholic Church have admitted to an issue, though the depth of it is fuzzy, and prone to a lot of number playing. IF the stats are even close, society has a massive problem, and the BSA is not the primary agent. Our real problem in this scenario is that actual facts are not easily determined, and that the emotional bias of many will inflate, or deflate dependent on the players.

I occasionally still hear from a young man, once a boy, that fit that description. He remained in the unit for close to 4 years, often not around, but coming back and enjoying, with a lot of other scouts' help, outings and such. He lived with his alcoholic father who often beat him badly, yet he stood up for his father if anyone said anything. It was hard for me to understand that defense mechanism, especially when it came to my attention that very often he stayed with other scouts when his father was on a binge. He was part of our troop, no matter what, and he still notes on occasion that even though he lived a hellish childhood, the troop was a safe place. And that is the real truth about our program beyond the anomalous predators that have been allowed to sneak in. JMHO of course.

Wasn't it a direction of an early court session? Seems to me that was very early, and was part of the court direction that they solicit for victims in some manner. I could be mistaken, as that was now years ago.