skeptic

Since my camping is now restricted to drive in sites, or ones we can drive easily to anyway, but have few or no facilities. Water is often needs to be carried in so cal, and some campgrounds do not have serviceable toilets, or enough for larger crowds. But there are a lot of more remote spots that do not have any at all, but you can camp there and fend. As a well seasoned person, I no longer deal well with the needed process, other than peeing in the buses. My family has a five acre plot in the desert that is on the edge of Joshua Tree, but we do not live on it, and we have not put water or electric in either, though the kids may at some point in the future. But, I take the group out to my house on a third acre and we deal with one bathroom and portable urinals, but if we want to use the acreage, it has no facility. I was looking at available portable items and note they are not too expensive for the basic needs. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with these travel potties?

Like the term "awkward scouts". I would agree that is a great description. Also feel that the labeling that is common today is part of the problem. The youth's peers too often pick up on that and it becomes far more difficult than it might otherwise. Always a balance, and helping both the "differentand his Scouting peers deal with things is part of the challenge. Yet I have seen many of them come into their own when encourage by scout peers to get involved. Learning for them all, and for many adults I think too.

Sadly, our society generally gets in the way of this common sense approach, especially the looming black feathered birds of the legal system.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/?s=siple Great piece and the type of public exposure we need badly. The mention of the current NESA program for similar types of opportunity is really important I feel. And we need to make all of those participants and what they do public and do it loudly. Whatever we can do to show the overall value of the program is important. Scouting, and Scouting America will never be perfect, and it never was. That is just reality. But, the overall positive elements in the history and possible going forward is still there. And today, our society, and really the world needs that badly. JMHO of course as a well seasoned old goat.

The problem, of course, with false or skewed reports is the damage is done before it is sorted out. We have seen this myriad times, and it is far worse with the instant media options. Yet, the reason we ended in the mess, aside from our twisted legal system, is that such things often are very difficult to verify, and sensitive, especially to families.

As appears to often be the case, there is a point of confusion on the link, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/scouts-first-helpline/#:~:text=As part of its “Scouts,put a youth at risk. that is part of the notice from Krone. Scouts First Helpline Adult Audience Only The above seems to me to make this confusing. Obviously, there is no way to keep the material from youth, so what is with the heading?

I suppose this reminder may be needed, though if we Are Prepared, it shoul fnot be. As the medic said each day at meal assemblies; "Drink water; Don't Puke!" Do remember that pop of any kind is not good for hydration. Also, encourage neck cooling wraps and be sure hats are worn. Heat stroke is often the result of an uncovered hear, and your brain frying. Of course chap stick and sun blocks of some kind, along with wicking shirt with long sleeves in many cases. Sun glasses are good, though they easily get lost, even with adults. Insect barriers can be useful. Some people have laughed, but when I went to camp I always took garlic pills morning and night and kept dryer sheets in the top of my hat and in pockets of shirts. It helped dramatically. Some staff copied me and told me it helped them as well.

"I’m not following your point. In your council activities are not done due to fear of legal repercussions?" No, our council has mothballed our main camp and the other is on the sales block, so we have no local camp anymore. Their reasoning was arrived at by a small group of people, most of whom had not real contact with the program or camp directly. While most unit reviews of the camp were always very positive, there were some that focused on things NOT there, such as a lake, and also on our annual dining hall struggles that were affected in part by some odd legal things about not fixing just some things; it was all or nothing apparently with the local code people. I do not know for sure, but I was told they even made notes of any serial numbers on older equipment, and said it they were replaced, then all the other stuff had to be done as well. Drought also has affected, but mostly the seriously skewed report based on poor info and using a National sheet for camp expectations. Much of the stuff on those "expectations is "pie in the sky" and smaller camps are un likely to be able to do them. Yet, we have unique facilities too, such as a quarter scale authentic frontier fort which has been made into a campfire amphitheatre, and very good access to mountain bike trails and higher trek locations in the area. You can hike to the top of a 2000 foot plus mountain and camp on its back ridge, for example. And that has been a part of programming along with the many mountain bike trails. The final straw seems to be the lawsuit, in my view. But, it was also related to a very poor council communication and poor planning, and perhaps some other issues. When the uprising happened they got rid of the SE, but they have not reached out to the actual users of the site which, still could be open to basic camping and special events without having summer camp. Limbo time, and still a less than, in many local Scouters' view, good focus on the program and youth. They simply seem, to me, to not care to reach outside the box. The camp, and its predecessor were both made possible by the local community involvement, and I do not see any real effort to appeal to that, though it seems, to me, to be there still. Finding cooperative partners to use the site, while not making summer camp viable with our small size, would still be possible with a bit of imagination and so on. As far as other organizations, the lawsuit and its predator lawyers has put fear into many on the legal front. The threat of CO's being dragged in on flimsy data killed many units and has badly wounded others. Even though the issues are not now, or ever were, just Scouting problems. They just did something no body else did; keep records to try to stop negative things, corrup;ted of course to the Perversion Files by the lawyers. Yes, poor decisions were made in some cases, and even one is not forgivable, but it was not the pattern of the BSA, but an intrusion of the large societal issues. JMO of course, and I recognize a few will find it deplorable. Complete rehabilitation is not likely really possible. But surely it is clear progress has occurred and IF we follow ALL the guidelines, most likely issues will be diminished. But Scouting America cannot ever solve the larger societal issues, only do their best to defend themselves and their youth.

Aaron on Scouting continues to share great items on his FB page, things most might be able to try if they were not paranoid about the legal vultures. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2024/07/12/celebrating-100-years-of-camp-gorton-plus-other-positive-news-this-week-in-scouting/ And it is not just Scouting, it is many other once community focussed groups and clubs that did things because it needed to be done, and they were not afraid o be sued if something went awry. Technically the non profits and good samaritans are shielded, but the twisting of intent and meaning has made many not want to try, as the cost of defending is just too high, even if they might win at the end. And we all know that there have been some really ignorant judicial judgments, and suits that most osther countries would toss at the start. It is not helped by well meaning local rules, also based on shallow thinking because something unusual happened and somebody was harmed. It was not like to be an issue again if review with clear thinking, but again, our system makes it too difficult and expensive. We are on the edge of losing our only viable camp due to deferred repairs, mostly brought on by too many regulations that simply should not apply, nor keep other repairs from happening. Permits for one thing should not logically impact permits for a totally different thng; yet they seem to often do. Many activities carry a small possibility of injury, no matter what you do. If someone trips on a tent stake, is that really negligence, or just a sleepy or careless person? If a mountain biker falls is that reason to simply ban the program? It appears that is the case in some places. And this applies to say the Elks, Lions too. The threat of legal attachments on these beneficial groups by the greedy chasers has made many afraid to support not just Scouting America, but many other things in communities. These groups were, and still could be, major factors in better communities and society. From my perspective of 8 plus decades, it seems clear that we need not only a serious rework of our legal system, but maybe a magic wand to put bring back "common sense". Just my couple of dollars, once two cents, worth.

And now I do not go to camp as my body does not like it much. I miss it though, but need to be smart. They do not need me having another major health issue while there. Right now, we do not even have a local camp anyway, though the younger leaders are taking them to a unit week not too far away. As one local leader says regularly after posting photos; "get 'em out there".

Yep, it is the acclimating that is important. And that always included my telling the members, adult and kids, that the swim check was NOT a race, and they could wait a day if need. We went from sea level, literally, to a mile hight or more most years. Between the hot, dry atmosphere and unheated pool, or other water, it could zap you. As I got older, I always did my check the following day, both because of the change, but also my trying to keep up with the routines.

https://www.facebook.com/nationalscoutingmuseumbsa/videos/864680685508371 Note that Seton is given credit in this, and also how clearly the original concept fits into our societal problems today. Also recognize this is based on some of teh earliest artifacts of B.P.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12907335/sydney-ireland-fought-nine-years-boy-scouts-movie.html

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2024/06/27/this-scouts-bsa-troop-has-met-in-the-same-cabin-for-100-years/ While I suspect that more care from the communities in our council than those in charge of the Council think, they cannot respond if we do not make them aware. Our almost century old camp is in mothballs and the socalled committee simply acts as if it is a foregone conclusion the community will not care. My experience is that speaking with others of my vintage and often younger is that they have concern about the camp, the concepts our foundational tenets embrace, and the need for the program AND its support through the camp and other ways. The idea that nobody really cares is it seems to me a very wrong impression. BUT, unless we make it known and press it over the voices of the political and narrow thinking council we will soon see not only the camp gone completely, as has happened too often already across the country, but we will see the program continue to struggle when it is needed so badly. Our local history shows the community was the driving force of the council's development a century+ back, and the idea that has changed is wrong, or so I believe.

While I seldom am out hiking with this concern now due to age, hikers, especially youth in groups, such as scouts, need to make sure they allow space between themselves on trails and that they look at the trail in front of themselves consistently. OF you come upon a snake, the front one or two hikers are less likely to be bitten than those behind, as the front ones draw the attention and the snake reacts to the followers. Also, if hiking where snakes are a real concern, wear proper foot ware.

Been a while since I did that type of thing, and it may have changed. But we always had to wait to remove them at recharter unless we asked the council office registrar to do it manually. Unless it is serious issue, just wait would be my thought. Others more involved in modern paper work likely can give better answers.

Once more, reality of human nature rears. The long discourse here proves that few paid any real attention to the material on the permits. They just made sure to fill in the blanks and hopefully verified the various certifications of training and licenses. In our troop we asked for verification of driver information, including coverages. We also made it clear that if warranted, some might not be drivers, for whatever reason. We did accomplish one thing though. Almost the first thing one scout would say when all were in. "Seatbelts".

Well, I said I would not say more, but being sure about what I thought I had seen, I found an online copy of the discontinued Tour Permit. Here is what I likely read and to which I referred. Read the last line or two; it specifically says "If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them." "' 1. We will use the Safe Swim Defense in any swimming activity, Safety Afloat in all craft activity on the water, and Climb On Safely for climbing activity. 2. We will use trucks only for transporting equipment—no passengers except in the cab. All passenger cars, station wagons, recreational vehicles, and cabs of trucks will have a seat belt for each passenger. 3. We agree to enforce reasonable travel speed (in accordance with national, state, and local laws) and use only vehicles that are in safe mechanical condition. 4. We will be certain that fires are attended at all times. 5. We will apply for a fire permit from local authorities in all areas where it is required. 6. We will at all times be a credit to the Boy Scouts of America and will not tolerate rowdyism or un-Scoutlike conduct, keeping a constant check on all members of our group. 7. We will maintain high standards of personal cleanliness and orderliness and will operate a clean and sanitary camp, leaving it in a better condition than we found it. 8. We will not litter or bury any trash, garbage, or tin cans. All rubbish that cannot be burned will be placed in a tote-litter bag and taken to the nearest recognized trash disposal or all the way home, if necessary. 9. We will not deface trees, restrooms, or other objects with initials or writing. 10. We will respect the property of others and will not trespass. 11. We will not cut standing trees or shrubs without specific permission from the land owner or manager. 12. We will collect only souvenirs that are gifts to us or that we purchase. 13. We will pay our own way and not expect concessions or entertainment from any individual or group. 14. We will provide every member of our party an opportunity to attend religious services on the Sabbath. 15. We will observe the courtesy to write thank-you notes to persons who assisted us on our trip. 16. We will, in case of backcountry expedition, read and abide by the Wilderness Use Policy of the BSA. 17. We will notify, in case of serious trouble, our local council service center, our parents, or other local contact. 18. If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them. So there we have it. Now I can shut up and know I saw and read what I thought I had.

This triggered a long ago memory when I was a new district commissioner and attended a cub recruitment at a local elementary school (when we were still invited). The person in charge got up in front and welcomed them all, then immediately began separating the kids, and their were a number of them then, into age groups. Once that was done, he turned to the parents and adults and asked. Okay, who is going to give their time to make these excited youngsters have their program? A couple hands went up, but that was it. So, since there was far too many for two people to handle, he again turned to the group and said something to the effect of; " So who here will explain to these children why they cannot have their new experience because no adults will step forward". Guilt seemed to work at the time, but that was the seventies. Not sure it will anymore. Just a membory.

Interestingly, I just ran across this, from Mike Rowe. It say much that can relate to this subject. I agree with most of what he suggests, and I even like the song Be Prepared that is linked. https://mikerowe.com/2018/05/otw-death-of-the-boy-scouts/

How about we simply agree that actual convoying is not the best idea, and that defensive driving and obeying the law are paramount. Call it follow the leader, or don't lose the others, or convoying, but it has been discouraged in whatever form for a long time. A policy, maybe not on paper. Common sense is all we need. Why do we need to make it bigger than needed? My last comment, as I have little patience at my seasoned age for nonsense.

On of those "what if" things for me. I was an ASM for a troop at Spangdahlem AB in the sixties, predating I believe the Normandy COR. But it would have been on our radar for sure if was there when it happened. As it turned out, I was moved anyway to a remote sight with no scouting, and only seven of us. Later I took a pass to France, but did not get to Normandy, though wish I had now. I did visit the Luxembourg cemetery, and the one at Cambridge in England. The first one, Luxembourg was a real eye opener for me, as I had yet to see Pearl or Arlington. Cambridge is unique in that it has a huge wall with names engraved on it; all men and a few women that were lost in the Atlantic from sunken ships and downed planes. When I did go to Arlington in 85 with our Jambo troop, I noted a somberness that overcame most of the scouts and leaders, especially those with Veterans as leaders. I watched one Scouter stand just a ways back from the Wall, near the two statue guards and bow his head. His scouts gave him space, and then he walked to the Wall and found a name or maybe more, bowed his head again and finally turned and walked away. The look on the faces of the Scouts was respect and sympathy. I have a photo of myself reflected in the Wall looking at the name of a HS friend, and you can see me with his name in the reflection. A very cool picture. That is why we try to always participate in local Veteran related activities, especially Memorial Day and Veterans' Day.

And the obvious fact our small units NEED the adult help is often why we do not get the cubs to join us. They go where the group is larger and has the adults involved more highly and in larger numbers. You can almost see the parents thinking as the politely thank us for the visits.

I would suggest that it is a good deal of misinformation and a large dose of negativity by the rabid media. Until we find a way to make it clearer how much good the program supports and can do, and get that in front of the people, it will stay hard. Much of that goes right back to the loss of local news and neighborhood exposure. We had our names in the local papers, and even photos. We had little fear of people knowing we were Scouts, as the negative hype was yet to explode. The issues were still there, but the societal responses were far less vituperative and most understood that was NOT the norm. Scouting was simply an accepted part of the community by most, and while still targets for the "sissy" label or "goody-goody", it was not as nasty, and fewer others piled on. Ironically, every time we have our youth out in public doing stuff we get adults and even some youth that thank us. On occasion we have even gotten an interest in joining, though not usually followed up by them. Small things could help, like schools NOT barring the Eagle and Gold Award graduation symbols, or even schools, as many once did, noting Scouting success in the schools. We can do more, but we also have to try harder to overcome much of the hype still. Meanwhile, as one local leader says, "get em out there!"

A great survey, but sadly, not necessarily accurate. Like most such things, the data is skewed to the desired outcome. I agree, as most likely recognize, that I Think Scouting can be America's answer still, but this study does not reflect my own community experiences. While bystanders at service events tend to be positive towards our youth and the group, they are usually not representative of the larger public. The negative image created by the overblown media attacks have done serious damage, and unless we find ways to prove otherwise, and also help people realize that the bad things the media pushed IS NOT the norm, nor ever was. But that damage is done, and so the challenge is greater. The comments here about parents still talking to their kids about right and wrong I fear is far from accurate. Based on both Scouting interactions and years of subbingin schools, I do not see that. And, too often when talking to adults when their scout, or a student was needing "counseling", I have seen the attitude of "not my child. They were not taught to act that way, and other similar words. Still, the study is a small light. Now we need to find a way to spread that beam.