skeptic

Well, the Tribune News Service, one of their papers in Seattle, has published an article which is obviously based on Mr. K's opinions, and maybe one or two of his proselyted contributors. The financial details, such as they are, are of course completely skewed with Mr. K's opinion, obvious to me and likely those that have read any amount of this over the past month+. I really do not understand how the judge continues to allow him to spread these half or less truths, pushing his own views without any other input. Of course, the Tribune service writer is equally responsible for incomplete research(if any at all) and obvious lack of balance. I have to wonder how much she may have made from this tabloid piece?

Not really surprising since if they do not require at least that already part of school admission, they again may be open to overzealous legal issues fro my less than favorite legal birds. Tetnus is already a must, and so it should be for a camp setting. Not sure about shingles, as that is primarily adult level and connected to chicken pox. On the other hand, I can assure you it is not fun to have. One of the worst couple weeks of my later adult life. Had it before teh VA offered the injection, but they gave me one anyway, as it can come back in rare instances.

I seldom used an up or down vote for years, but recently, it is easier than getting caught up in the accusatory language of some if you should disagree. I no longer often am patient enough to deal with trying to "explain", especially when it seems pretty clear to me already. Shrug and mostly ignore, or hit the down or even up. Easy-peasy. 😑

Sounds as if they are discriminatedly doing it. Just saying.

While he should have been no allowed based on currently known information, and it suggests poor checking. Background checks I believe had not yet been ut in place. Do not know whether this would have shown in one anyway. Still, poor judgment in seeming to not check things properly. Always the likely hood that references could have also been less than open, even if they were contacted. But, this does not seem to indicate, at least from what is shown, sexual abuse on record at the time. These types of examples are fuzzy at best, and we may be reaching some. Not sure they are really particulary pertinent, other than supporting poor follow and review.

"The American public has completely bought into the idea that if something bad happens you are entitled to be reimbursed and that means that SOMEONE with a big checkbook has to be held to blame. " And this is far TOO true and part and parcel of the mess we have here and in many other cases. The key item here is "someone with a big checkbook; or at least the perception of one". The view is without any peripheral vision. Perfection and absolutism is simply impossible. But that does not deter, and that is why it goes off on tangents and loses focus to the point of insanity.

While it is more visible, many camps still have their variants on these traditions. We have our Tribe of Matilija at our camp, but they do not do ceremonies. It is mostly just another option for the summer program and gets some service done in camp while units earn the award, which is now far different than its original requirements that developed in the thirties at Camp Gray. The Tribe was the basis for the OA Lodge, and the original Lodge members were all part of the Tribe of the time when started in the forties. Long Beach has a very large Tahquitz group at the camp, and it too is part of the summer program and allows camp service separately from OA. They appear to have modified much of their initiation programs away from the Native American concerns, but not sure about the hard core, as I am not in that council and was only made an honorary member as a leader at camp years ago. Chawankee has its Tribe, and as far as I know they still run their in camp program as well, though modified from what I have been told. Again, though I am on paper a "Medicine Man" and appear in their log of the Medicine men "quests", I do not recall much real NA details, but also it is likely two decades since we regularly attended the camp, and my entry was in the early 80's. I suspect that there are many more local "tribes" or "clans" at camps. In earlier days, it was often one of the main components of camp programs, some very elaborate, others just a smaller part of the larger program. A few of the very early patches, for example, from long gone camp groups have become premium "collector" items, ofthe bring four digits if a prime item. None of it from the past should taint the present IF current YP is in place and followed. Reality here, like in everyday society, is that there are those that either through ignorance, "I have a right" attitudes, or simply beligerance will flout rules and laws. That is why we have to have law enforcement. And NO organization will ever be absolutely secure or safe from those that choose to ignore or simply never try to even understand guidelines. While padding YP and making sincere efforts to police it are necessary, no amount of oversight can ever offset the realities of the societal scoflaws or simply warped personalities. We can never have that utopia; but we also cannot then shrug and not apply oversight reglularly, and deal with violators without favoritism to power and money, which often are joined at the hip.

Not sure USA Today is a very reliable source from most of what they publish.

No point in trying to be rational or pointing out actual improvements, as the bulk of the issue predates, as has been noted, the rapid development of YP. But, the recording and reviews definitely need to be bolstered. That, of course, is really something that needs public awareness on all fronts, and not just with CSA issues. Little is ever simply black and white, and the shading is too often decides by emotion and incomplete data. As many have noted, we can argue all we want about the past, but we cannot change it, nor can we do justice to damage, either physical or psychological. Improving with new knowledge and methods is paramount. More important is doing all we can to assure the in place rules are followed and not simply shrugged off if something is out of place or odd, but we cannot believe the parties maybe involved would do that. It has to be followed. With luck, it will clear itself up. Better to ere on the side of safety, especially with this issue. It is sad that so many insist on putting today, whether in BSA, or almost any other people related interaction, in the shadows of past mistakes and societal norms. Those that claim it is fair to drag the past into today are correct, but it should not be also used to suggest today is the same. It is not. And it will continue to evolve. I just hope we can salvage the mostly positive and stop bludgeoning today's programs, not just BSA, with those mistakes of the past.

Guess this should be here. Have reached out to Council as to how we do this? I should be covered anyway as a retired educator; but not sure how that gets linked. May be an opportunity for the Fingerprinting merit badge? https://apnews.com/article/california-recall-business-california-legislature-child-abuse-cc67021945d6cf68606f3333d14a847e?fbclid=IwAR0niFEEQ_pQsopxp-8L2bBP37MZFbvwzO3w9rAJSiNXQih8fzuaXGYYwR0

Will be interesting to see the results.

There is no way to make you stop putting words into my typing. I never said or even suggested there was no harm, no matter how far back you choose to go. I said I do not see how there is any real way to assign value to the damage for monetary means, and that even if there was, it will not cure the overall interrelated pain. No matter what actual meaning I have intimated, I have never stated no physical harm was done, or suggested the psychological harm is not real. Accept that I do not see the "how" factor. Just because something has been on record for centuries does not change, at least in my view, the impossibility to arrive at consistent and non subjective responses. And you beating my opinion with the dead horse does not make any difference.

This just showed up in a FB page: https://legalnewsline.com/stories/608422718-judge-orders-deeper-probe-into-where-thousands-of-boy-scouts-sex-abuse-claims-came-from?fbclid=IwAR0IGy-lFMOEhEhEOOE0bFHLnKPZA9hrvRfj_f3SeCrgR1vwpV4d4VYH54A Since I do not follow these threads constantly, I may just have missed comment on it. But, on the other hand, I am intrigued by the note of skepticism indicated.

It is still difficult for me to truly understand the use of the term "value of the claim(s). As, it seems an impossible task to actually put value on pain, either physcial or emotional, or psychological (though that would be emotional really). It still comes down to trying to make victims whole, and they will never be made whole. And as has been noted from the beginning, the dragging this all out of the dark corners of many psyches just reinforces the pain from the past, and adds new pain as well. No win, no matter what. But big losses.

Naivete and simple trust in the supposed responsible nature of those reaching out to help with youth and others. As we all know, it is not just youth that have been victimized by individuals in whom we may have put undue, or too shallow trust. We always come back to the same thing; you will not eliminate tese things completely. But we can, have, and are improving the oversight methods. It still comes back to our tendency, as basic humans, to often trust too much for various reasons. That is part of the human condition, and in most cases, it works. But, obviously, not always. That cannot be stopped if we are to have any real level of societal interactions.

Our Methodist unit is struggling of course with the vagaries of this whole situation. Our pastor and congregation support our presence, but we also have moved to the facility arrangement. We do not know what may transpire from here of course, as the "Case" may go myriad directions with the fickleness of the courts and so on. I received a link to the most recent broader article, that talks ALL CO's from our COR and Committee Chair. He, like me, has had a number of assurances we are still considered part of the Church outreach and will so remain if at all possible, even with the Charter change. Here is what I told the COR: " We will not change those that choose illogical bias over logic and reality. We will never make any program completely safe. We CAN come close with adherence to our in place YP guidelines and always following up on ANY concerns voiced or actual issues that come to light. Make the parents completely involved if possible, and possibly occasionally review the YP basics with them all, and if any changes occur, make them aware. It is a no win scenario in our particular society with its insistence on always trying to assign blame to anyone with even a tangential contact or involvement."

I hereby apologize to any posters on this thread that misinterpreted any of my posts, or feel that I somehow disrespected them. That has never been my intent. I honestly hope that those actually having been abused in any manner might get some relief, though I know as I have noted a number of times, that the final results will never be enough nor actually fix much. Perhaps, if you are spiritual, you might get solace in knowing that the final judgement will not be by we fallible humans. While I may check back to just see what does not readily appear in the news, and to review things, I find this entire mess too depressing and am simply going to try to just work the program and help salvage whatever may remain after the carnage is decided. After all, that is why most of us became involved or extended our involvement past our youth. I would dream that somehow we might see our legal system fixed to some extent so that Justice's scale might be more regularly balanced. That is about as likely to happen in my remaining lifetime as term limits, but one can hope. Good luck. And I really do mean that, even if you think otherwise.

First, the amount paid to the lawyers is simply obscene, and they do not deserve it. And that is a problem of our court system. Limits on lawyers should exist, period; and emotion should not be allowed to overly skew it. More importantly, again from my own perspective as a rational person, the jury payouts on many emotionally weighted cases is outlandish and again would not happen in other parts of the western world. Our legal system is broken and allows those types of awards, even though they are attempts to fix something that cannot be fixed. More importantly, the actual perpetrators again are not being brought to justice in most cases, and there is little effort, or so it seems, to do so. IF this were to be a balanced procedure, then they would publicly vet all the claims, which might in itself bring some interesting developments. They would also take into consideration who, beyond the BSA, swept things around and under. How many government jurisdictions chose to NOT do what needed to be done? How many family decisions played into those results in a different era of society? IF BSA is being held responsible for bad decisions, some perhaps forced by uncooperative families or obdurate of paid off public officials, what do you suggest be done? It is still an impossible scenario, and it just shows the foolishness of trying to rewrite history and fix societal problems from the past in todays environment. But how dare I suggest such outlandish things.

Again, I have never stated that the proceedings should not play out, only that they do it in a balanced and as close to fair manner as possible. And that does not mean trying to force money out of questionable sources or ignoring larger effects. Certainly, IF they finally arrive at a payout, the victims should be paid. I personally would limit the lawyer payout to no more than 5-10 percent of the totals, period. So, if you are to get the maximum payout under the current optins, you increase that payout by taking it from the lawyers, not trying to force liquidation of properties never meant to be used for anything but youth activities and such. A balanced scale and rational aproach. Not something that plays well in this tragedy.

I am not a lawyer, only a rational human being with opinions based on longevity and personal experience, as well as a broad sampling of reading for decades. This entire thread if full of impossible expectations. My personal demons are not the same as yours, and I cannot comprehend yours. But they are personal, and no amount of manetary solice will make them go away, and I have mostly learned to live with them and keep them at bay. Your comment though, and "I know my opinion is not important apparently", suggest somehow that other emotional life experiences do not hold the same importance as these in this thread. That seem a bit odd, and maybe even hypocritical But since you suggest I have a legal argument, then it is simply that the scale of justice stays in balance. With that, I will try harder to not torture you with my "opinions". I still do have a group, two now actually, of young people that we need to mentor. Again, best wishes, even though you say I do not mean it. *deleted*

Please show where I ever suggested emotional damage was not real. You are making things up out of your own emotional cloth, and that is not anything money can cure. Perhaps it may salve your and your families phystical surroundings, but it will never "fix" the damage. Only your own personal spiritual healing can even salve it. As I noted before, most of us have had emotional damage of one type or another, and few are likely to say they completely healed. I have no answer for that. But I do feel that the idea take away the overall positive program and its support to somehow get even is not only selfish, but impossible. But we all have our own emotional and psychological challenges, and I cannot ever understand yours or others that have posted. It is tiresome though to continue to be made out to completely uncaring or somehow ignorant or stupid (they are different). It is even more galling to watch basically unscrupulous and greedy legal people steal money from their clients in the name of justice, when it is actually simply greed. Otherwise, they would not take the percentages they do, nor would they legal hypocrits. JMO of course, as you all know my view of most of them. Only in this country can they get away with it. I want to continue to see through the glass dimly, not have it completely opaque. I only wish the victims well, but I am not confident that the final outcome will leave them any less embittered or whole. Now back to watching mostly.

"the sky is the limit for their liability". This is the problem with this and similar law suits. It leads to drawn out court cases and often ruination of not only the entity sued, but very often peripheral groups or people. And, no one has yet explained to me how you put "a value or price" on emotional and psycological damage, since it will vary from personality to personality, and often is made worse by the very law suit that is being placed. Worse, in most cases, it is not the actual perpetrator that is being affected, but groups and people that had little or no control, or made poor decisions based on what seemed logic or reason. We come back again as to why insurance policies stipulate amounts for physical damages, wheter property or human. It is always going to not satify most claimants, and the litigation adds even more due to no limits on that cost either. JMHO of course. So please do not make comments about me not caring.

While there is no absolute way of proving many considerations on Council held properties, the truth is that most were given to councils with verbal stipulations for use by Scouts and the expectation that is what would happen going forward. Some, more careful donors, understanding greed and lawyers, specifically wrote those stipulations into their donations. Most though were the "old fashioned" hand shake agreement that today's legal system often chooses to ignore. That being said, IF certain camps and properties were put on the market, there likely will then be more legal ramblings from families, or even the original donors. Also, many of the properties border on federal lands or even are surrounded by them, as is our camp. Part of our camp has leased FS land for campsites, while much of it is not viable for much other than camping and hiking, as the location and expense to develop would be huge. So, those likely are major considerations. Of course, some states, like ours, California is also under the constant eye of the environmentalists, who we mostly get along with well, but could jump in should property be offered up, especially under these specific circumstances.

So, what is to disagree? IF they earned the skill award, then they pretty much did all the rank requirements as well. I believe that is what I noted. Of course, in the case of most merit badges, they still had more things to do besides the items in the skill awards. Now, for First Aid for example, they must have completed all the rank rquirement first aid items as a prerequite. That is the first requirement.

Skill awards simply allowed the scout to earn bling for various types of skill, getting one for first aid meant completing all the first aid requirements for the first three ranks. If a scout earned all the skill awards, he pretty much also learned all the ranks through first class, with a few additional things added in each level. Also, the skill award booklets were often very good for covering those various rank parts more easily. Or at least so I saw it.