skeptic

Pure insanity from my perspective. If that is truly their idea of fair and balanced, then they are under the influence. Please do not give me the BS about I do not care or something. This figure is simply so far out there that I am surprised they would share it.

I either need to have new eyes, or I need to change my understanding. The figure shown here is in the trillions, not billions. Now I understand errors happen, but am I reading this wrong, or is that actually somehow their pie in the sky idea?

That one is really important with the chance of metal or splinter injuries. A pine needle under a nail is not fun either. All might result in a tetanus shot.

I just received this through the Methodists FB site. It appears there has been work in the background and they may yet work it all out. https://michiganumc.org/bishop-offers-new-advice-on-scout-charters/?fbclid=IwAR1oUmtjRR5UThWWuFzf1GAIToUFuv6asQ8qwTwW43Mp5L5Z48qXGDh6W44 In the meantime, we are treading water and looking at the Kiwanis, though we would still meet at the church, which they want. With this extension, hopefully we can forego an actual charter org change.

I was led to believe that the early childhood inocculations were forever. I got what was available in the mid to late forties, then the polio when it became available. I had mumps and chicken pocks as a kid in very heavy cases, then oddly got measels twice my last quarter of my freshman year; first the regular "3 day", then just a couple weeks later the German. Missed half the last quarter and messed up my grades royally due to absences. Also was given stuff for plague when I was supposed to go to Peru in the Peace Corps, then got "selected out" and ended up joining the Air Force in 65 and when they had an outbreak of plague in Turkey in 1966 they gave all of us in Europe the plague shots, and I got really ill due to the basically double dose. They would not believe me that I had gotten it less than a year before, and I did not have the proof. But, never got the plague.

Yes, most of the suggested payouts are accurate based on info we have seen. BUT, the main gist of the story is that LC's and others are not putting in as much as they can or should. And that is simply not accurate, other than if they were to liquidate. Of course, that would make Mr. K happy, as we already know. Still, I am properly chastised that I suggest his right to "free speech" should be restrained, and that is not corret. Though his free speech tends to be a lot misleading and maybe even a little fuzzy. He got what he wanted though, so he should be pleased, no matter how misleading much of it is. Just don't expect me, or perhaps others, to not find it to be tainted.

Well, the Tribune News Service, one of their papers in Seattle, has published an article which is obviously based on Mr. K's opinions, and maybe one or two of his proselyted contributors. The financial details, such as they are, are of course completely skewed with Mr. K's opinion, obvious to me and likely those that have read any amount of this over the past month+. I really do not understand how the judge continues to allow him to spread these half or less truths, pushing his own views without any other input. Of course, the Tribune service writer is equally responsible for incomplete research(if any at all) and obvious lack of balance. I have to wonder how much she may have made from this tabloid piece?

Not really surprising since if they do not require at least that already part of school admission, they again may be open to overzealous legal issues fro my less than favorite legal birds. Tetnus is already a must, and so it should be for a camp setting. Not sure about shingles, as that is primarily adult level and connected to chicken pox. On the other hand, I can assure you it is not fun to have. One of the worst couple weeks of my later adult life. Had it before teh VA offered the injection, but they gave me one anyway, as it can come back in rare instances.

I seldom used an up or down vote for years, but recently, it is easier than getting caught up in the accusatory language of some if you should disagree. I no longer often am patient enough to deal with trying to "explain", especially when it seems pretty clear to me already. Shrug and mostly ignore, or hit the down or even up. Easy-peasy. 😑

Sounds as if they are discriminatedly doing it. Just saying.

While he should have been no allowed based on currently known information, and it suggests poor checking. Background checks I believe had not yet been ut in place. Do not know whether this would have shown in one anyway. Still, poor judgment in seeming to not check things properly. Always the likely hood that references could have also been less than open, even if they were contacted. But, this does not seem to indicate, at least from what is shown, sexual abuse on record at the time. These types of examples are fuzzy at best, and we may be reaching some. Not sure they are really particulary pertinent, other than supporting poor follow and review.

"The American public has completely bought into the idea that if something bad happens you are entitled to be reimbursed and that means that SOMEONE with a big checkbook has to be held to blame. " And this is far TOO true and part and parcel of the mess we have here and in many other cases. The key item here is "someone with a big checkbook; or at least the perception of one". The view is without any peripheral vision. Perfection and absolutism is simply impossible. But that does not deter, and that is why it goes off on tangents and loses focus to the point of insanity.

While it is more visible, many camps still have their variants on these traditions. We have our Tribe of Matilija at our camp, but they do not do ceremonies. It is mostly just another option for the summer program and gets some service done in camp while units earn the award, which is now far different than its original requirements that developed in the thirties at Camp Gray. The Tribe was the basis for the OA Lodge, and the original Lodge members were all part of the Tribe of the time when started in the forties. Long Beach has a very large Tahquitz group at the camp, and it too is part of the summer program and allows camp service separately from OA. They appear to have modified much of their initiation programs away from the Native American concerns, but not sure about the hard core, as I am not in that council and was only made an honorary member as a leader at camp years ago. Chawankee has its Tribe, and as far as I know they still run their in camp program as well, though modified from what I have been told. Again, though I am on paper a "Medicine Man" and appear in their log of the Medicine men "quests", I do not recall much real NA details, but also it is likely two decades since we regularly attended the camp, and my entry was in the early 80's. I suspect that there are many more local "tribes" or "clans" at camps. In earlier days, it was often one of the main components of camp programs, some very elaborate, others just a smaller part of the larger program. A few of the very early patches, for example, from long gone camp groups have become premium "collector" items, ofthe bring four digits if a prime item. None of it from the past should taint the present IF current YP is in place and followed. Reality here, like in everyday society, is that there are those that either through ignorance, "I have a right" attitudes, or simply beligerance will flout rules and laws. That is why we have to have law enforcement. And NO organization will ever be absolutely secure or safe from those that choose to ignore or simply never try to even understand guidelines. While padding YP and making sincere efforts to police it are necessary, no amount of oversight can ever offset the realities of the societal scoflaws or simply warped personalities. We can never have that utopia; but we also cannot then shrug and not apply oversight reglularly, and deal with violators without favoritism to power and money, which often are joined at the hip.

Not sure USA Today is a very reliable source from most of what they publish.

No point in trying to be rational or pointing out actual improvements, as the bulk of the issue predates, as has been noted, the rapid development of YP. But, the recording and reviews definitely need to be bolstered. That, of course, is really something that needs public awareness on all fronts, and not just with CSA issues. Little is ever simply black and white, and the shading is too often decides by emotion and incomplete data. As many have noted, we can argue all we want about the past, but we cannot change it, nor can we do justice to damage, either physical or psychological. Improving with new knowledge and methods is paramount. More important is doing all we can to assure the in place rules are followed and not simply shrugged off if something is out of place or odd, but we cannot believe the parties maybe involved would do that. It has to be followed. With luck, it will clear itself up. Better to ere on the side of safety, especially with this issue. It is sad that so many insist on putting today, whether in BSA, or almost any other people related interaction, in the shadows of past mistakes and societal norms. Those that claim it is fair to drag the past into today are correct, but it should not be also used to suggest today is the same. It is not. And it will continue to evolve. I just hope we can salvage the mostly positive and stop bludgeoning today's programs, not just BSA, with those mistakes of the past.

Guess this should be here. Have reached out to Council as to how we do this? I should be covered anyway as a retired educator; but not sure how that gets linked. May be an opportunity for the Fingerprinting merit badge? https://apnews.com/article/california-recall-business-california-legislature-child-abuse-cc67021945d6cf68606f3333d14a847e?fbclid=IwAR0niFEEQ_pQsopxp-8L2bBP37MZFbvwzO3w9rAJSiNXQih8fzuaXGYYwR0

Will be interesting to see the results.

There is no way to make you stop putting words into my typing. I never said or even suggested there was no harm, no matter how far back you choose to go. I said I do not see how there is any real way to assign value to the damage for monetary means, and that even if there was, it will not cure the overall interrelated pain. No matter what actual meaning I have intimated, I have never stated no physical harm was done, or suggested the psychological harm is not real. Accept that I do not see the "how" factor. Just because something has been on record for centuries does not change, at least in my view, the impossibility to arrive at consistent and non subjective responses. And you beating my opinion with the dead horse does not make any difference.

This just showed up in a FB page: https://legalnewsline.com/stories/608422718-judge-orders-deeper-probe-into-where-thousands-of-boy-scouts-sex-abuse-claims-came-from?fbclid=IwAR0IGy-lFMOEhEhEOOE0bFHLnKPZA9hrvRfj_f3SeCrgR1vwpV4d4VYH54A Since I do not follow these threads constantly, I may just have missed comment on it. But, on the other hand, I am intrigued by the note of skepticism indicated.

It is still difficult for me to truly understand the use of the term "value of the claim(s). As, it seems an impossible task to actually put value on pain, either physcial or emotional, or psychological (though that would be emotional really). It still comes down to trying to make victims whole, and they will never be made whole. And as has been noted from the beginning, the dragging this all out of the dark corners of many psyches just reinforces the pain from the past, and adds new pain as well. No win, no matter what. But big losses.

Naivete and simple trust in the supposed responsible nature of those reaching out to help with youth and others. As we all know, it is not just youth that have been victimized by individuals in whom we may have put undue, or too shallow trust. We always come back to the same thing; you will not eliminate tese things completely. But we can, have, and are improving the oversight methods. It still comes back to our tendency, as basic humans, to often trust too much for various reasons. That is part of the human condition, and in most cases, it works. But, obviously, not always. That cannot be stopped if we are to have any real level of societal interactions.

Our Methodist unit is struggling of course with the vagaries of this whole situation. Our pastor and congregation support our presence, but we also have moved to the facility arrangement. We do not know what may transpire from here of course, as the "Case" may go myriad directions with the fickleness of the courts and so on. I received a link to the most recent broader article, that talks ALL CO's from our COR and Committee Chair. He, like me, has had a number of assurances we are still considered part of the Church outreach and will so remain if at all possible, even with the Charter change. Here is what I told the COR: " We will not change those that choose illogical bias over logic and reality. We will never make any program completely safe. We CAN come close with adherence to our in place YP guidelines and always following up on ANY concerns voiced or actual issues that come to light. Make the parents completely involved if possible, and possibly occasionally review the YP basics with them all, and if any changes occur, make them aware. It is a no win scenario in our particular society with its insistence on always trying to assign blame to anyone with even a tangential contact or involvement."

I hereby apologize to any posters on this thread that misinterpreted any of my posts, or feel that I somehow disrespected them. That has never been my intent. I honestly hope that those actually having been abused in any manner might get some relief, though I know as I have noted a number of times, that the final results will never be enough nor actually fix much. Perhaps, if you are spiritual, you might get solace in knowing that the final judgement will not be by we fallible humans. While I may check back to just see what does not readily appear in the news, and to review things, I find this entire mess too depressing and am simply going to try to just work the program and help salvage whatever may remain after the carnage is decided. After all, that is why most of us became involved or extended our involvement past our youth. I would dream that somehow we might see our legal system fixed to some extent so that Justice's scale might be more regularly balanced. That is about as likely to happen in my remaining lifetime as term limits, but one can hope. Good luck. And I really do mean that, even if you think otherwise.

First, the amount paid to the lawyers is simply obscene, and they do not deserve it. And that is a problem of our court system. Limits on lawyers should exist, period; and emotion should not be allowed to overly skew it. More importantly, again from my own perspective as a rational person, the jury payouts on many emotionally weighted cases is outlandish and again would not happen in other parts of the western world. Our legal system is broken and allows those types of awards, even though they are attempts to fix something that cannot be fixed. More importantly, the actual perpetrators again are not being brought to justice in most cases, and there is little effort, or so it seems, to do so. IF this were to be a balanced procedure, then they would publicly vet all the claims, which might in itself bring some interesting developments. They would also take into consideration who, beyond the BSA, swept things around and under. How many government jurisdictions chose to NOT do what needed to be done? How many family decisions played into those results in a different era of society? IF BSA is being held responsible for bad decisions, some perhaps forced by uncooperative families or obdurate of paid off public officials, what do you suggest be done? It is still an impossible scenario, and it just shows the foolishness of trying to rewrite history and fix societal problems from the past in todays environment. But how dare I suggest such outlandish things.

Again, I have never stated that the proceedings should not play out, only that they do it in a balanced and as close to fair manner as possible. And that does not mean trying to force money out of questionable sources or ignoring larger effects. Certainly, IF they finally arrive at a payout, the victims should be paid. I personally would limit the lawyer payout to no more than 5-10 percent of the totals, period. So, if you are to get the maximum payout under the current optins, you increase that payout by taking it from the lawyers, not trying to force liquidation of properties never meant to be used for anything but youth activities and such. A balanced scale and rational aproach. Not something that plays well in this tragedy.