skeptic

The two books by Edward Cave are now available online free. Here are links to the two of them. I am fortunate to have the actual original books in my accumulation, including the second printing that was comined with the two. https://archives.library.wcsu.edu/omeka/items/show/2143 https://archive.org/details/boyscampbookguid00cave/page/n8/mode/2up?ref=ol&view=theater

While the content is interesting and shows Ownby's interest, it does not deal with the change in ownership issue, but rather simply the collection's focus on Scouting, as seen in the Rockwells. Hopefully, the change in ownership will continue to allow this type of public contact of the paintings, and maybe even more than when at the National Museum. In some respects, there may be an opportunity to enhance the Scouting story without the distractions of the ongoing legal circus. I could see this type of broader, community reconginzed type of presentation to be a positive thing, maybe even added to from other lesser known artists in the BSA stable over the years. As an aside, while the connection of Rockwell with Boys Life is relatively well know today, very little is common knowledge in respect to his very early book illustrations for the Cave books on hiking and campint circa 1914 and 1915. They are ant interesting study in Rockwell's early technique, still developing at the time. While mostly pen and ink type illustrations, and small, to fit the pages of the book well, even then there is detail that was not common for the time with illustrators. I personally see though a slight similarity to Seton and Beard drawings of the same era, though they were already established in their own right.

This may be a jump-off, and I have no issue with that. The more I review things here and on the FB page "Talk About Scouting", I feel our best opportunity to move ahead and remake our programs is to focus on LOCAL. That means particularly the individual units and to some extent properly reworked, if necessary LC support. The latter is a real issue now, as many are bare bones, such as ours, cut by about 80 percent if you include office and store. Only two professionals left. The good thing is that the districts are doing more and even drawing in a new type of volunteer, so to speak. We are not nearly as dark as we fear within the community. Many outside our own circle are surprisingly understanding of the challenges we face, but feel the program is still a worthwhile part of the community. We need to build on that and try to keep the negative at a distance and assure there are not many additions to that element. We will not get away from the sensationalism of the media, but we can use the tools with which they bludgeon us to counter. They will not look for the positive, so we need to put it out ourselves, and we can.

This entire subject is so convoluted that it really is impossible to truly understand or confront within our programs, in this case, Scouting. We are trying to rationally deal with irrational concepts. Not a real possibility from my view. And the more we try, the more confused our youth could become, along with we who are trying to be mentors. Like religious issues, this really is something that we should not be at the front of, stepping back to allow it to be a family challenge. And no matter what we may do, we will NEVER actually meet the expectations this raises. My opinion, and I understand some will find it wanting.

This entire issue is continuing to be a very large vat of worms, IMO. As has been noted by many since the outset, there is nothing new with this. The entire concept is, and continues to be covered by already in place parts of the idea of Scout Spirit, which includes the Oath and Law as primary components. IF a youth is doing their best to live by those simple ideas, then they should already be meeting the MB requirements. By making these issues more than normal "societal" concerns, things you learn to deal with as a part of the community, then you may cause at least confusion, and in some ways, engender problems where none were before. Just as we cannot stop certain human beings from doing certain things in their own lives and on occasion finding ways to intrude on the lives of our youth, we cannot reach into the minds of others to truly understand. We come back to basic acceptance of the rights of others to lead their lives. But remember, a right is not license, nor should we being doing the job of the parents and family. And forcing this discussion on immature youth is not, IMO, a valid part of the program we are trying to salvage.

A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee. "Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting. What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity: • owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation. • has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head. • is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance. The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is • a Youth Ministry of the Church • an integral part of the parish community and its mission The Charter Organization Representative (COR) • is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District. • recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them. • ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish. • promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs. • supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese. • Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org. • Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District. Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following: • The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders. • The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit. • Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure. Additional information: In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following: • Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols. • The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations, • Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment. With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry. Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation" @skeptic Note below is a copy of above with my guess of original format. ~RS A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee. "Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting. What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity: owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation. has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head. is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance. The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is a Youth Ministry of the Church an integral part of the parish community and its mission The Charter Organization Representative (COR) is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District. recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them. ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish. promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs. supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese. Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org. Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District. Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following: The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders. The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit. Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure. Additional information: In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following: Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols. The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations, Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment. With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry. Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation"

Why should people be surprised. This is the type of individual involved, and they are so cocky that they think they cannot be touched. But I am called out for suggesting they are not nice birds. And they do fly together.

IF, and that can be a big IF with old minds, I am reading the table correctly, over 35% of the total listed claims appear to not know where they occurred, either because they do not know the council, or it is just missing. Also, the types of abuse, as listed, appears to have 6.7% of the total that are unknown or missing. These figures, especially the second one, seem odd to me. I understand time is a factor, but I would think, especially the type would not be forgotten. Granted, if the abuse was cordonned off in their minds, it might be fuzzy; but if it is recognized, I would think it would be more than just a vague "I was abused" memory. Not a psychologist, but it is confusing given the situation. While the specific Council could easily be no longer in existence, the locale should give some indication as to which one it may have been. That said, is the current council then saddled with the problem of the defunct one? All of this is just another problem with trying to fix things from decades in the past.

We likely have no idea what may have transpired behind the scenes with messed up families and simply poor decisions, recognized looking back, of people based on societal norms "of the time". And likely, some of those thngs would fit the description, though hopefully not many. IF we are going to open it all to the world, then let it be ALL, not just that which fits the most grossly. You only need took at myriad stats on this subject that indicate really odd family interactions and fears of retribution or worse. You can read whatever you wish into that, but it seems simply reality, especially when looking back to different "norms".

Meanwhile, we continue to have the non-vetted number of files thrown out as the reality, and we have no idea regarding most of them. Are some actually completely fraudulent? Do some fit into the categories of discussion the last few days, like kids being kids in adolescense, or discomfort under normal camp activities, especially when they still had open showers and kybos that had multiple holes without dividers? So many misleading, or possibly even grasping at the dollars reports. Vetting, including why or how it may have not been dealt with, would make the questions out, for the most part. And please, those that will immediately suggest I do not care, I do. I just want the complete story if we are to hand the dirty laundry, and that should include the dirty laundry of the scammers and victims of the era in which it happened.

The larger question remains; how many of the "reported" files from the IVF are actually in the categories other than the two that might actually cover abuse? There is a strong likelyhood that many of the files the media, and others continue to enumerate "do not" fall into the "abuse" categories. But, it that suggestion is made, the individual is immediately labeled in some manner as accepting of CA. Of course, the average person if they see a story, it is likely one written with the intent to ignore all the peripheral things, and to simply dramatize the worst elements. That is our world in this country, and too many do not have the ability, or so it seems, to separate the chafe from the wheat.

On the train from San Bernardino to Colorado and jambo we slept two to a birth. One older, one youner or at least smaller. Otherwise, would not have been room. I felt sorry for the younger scout with me, as he was really small, and I was 16. We would go around a curve, and it would roll me into him, then back the other way. Good thing I was not overly heavy at the time, though compared, probably 40 pounds on him. After the first night, I put a block of sorts between us.

Not sure your comparison. The OP shared a link about an Eagle with a knife in his emergency kit in his car. Still, point taken as to S.I. and phone.

Especially if Mom and BF are unaware of it. Also depends ofn what defines "making out", as there too are levels there. All a murky and is open to distortion and inuendo. Of course, we also have the lovely accepted so called Reality TV and some pretty questionable stuff, along with even suggestive commercials and ones for "adults". Our culture and society is often "free range" in respect to questionable activities in front of kids and the general public.

The issue is that we are trying to combat the actual real world exposure kids have to way too much questionable activity and the simple youth interchange. Yes, we need to find ways to make it better, but we also cannot stop the exposure completely unless we put them all in those roll around bubbles or something. And nothing will ever completely fix it.

Being a fly on the wall, with a recorder of some kind, in any lunch break area in any school, even elementary, might turn ears blue.

Thanks; that is what I was hinting at, but tend to ramble some. Adolesence brings these discussions up in most youth gatherings at some point. It is the time for trying to figure things out, evaluating personal feelings, and experimenting. In other words, normal bumps and activities of growing up and dealing with emotional and physical changes. Overreaction to these things is possible worse than ignoring. IF you are confronted with it directly or indirectly, the issue is how do you address it without putting the youth into the "pervert" category? Do you bring parents into the discussion? Do you have some sort of broad group interchange with youth and adults? And, of course, they then still go back into the cultural swamp where foul language is accepted as normal, and even advertising is suggestive. Balance and reality is lost with too much knee jerk response, but we still need to somehow try to weed out the actual problems. Just observations from a long life of not only Scouting, but working in schools and on occasion with other youth groups. Then we also have the blinders too many wear when it is "their kid", or their "friend". Catch 22 in much of the drama. So, better awareness, but not over reaction either. The line is pretty narrow.

"I want to nail as many predators to the wall as we can". That I would hope few if any here would have issue with. Trouble is, it does not seem to be the main goal, as of course, most, if even alive, have little to take, other than their freedom.

Can we say McMartin?

Some of you must be really good with knot tying, and even better with splicing with the way you twist things to make yourselves seem the only ones with valid views. And yes, while this is regarding BSA, the issues extend beyond them, and if that is not important to you as well, then you need to step back and reexamine. Your inuendo and often insulting responses is juvenile and very narrow, as well as hints at actual vengence. Please do not embarrass yourselves further.

So, we now have reached the point of thinking somehow we can change the nature of the process of adolescence? Where does the line of demarcation get drawn between centuries old "normal" experimentation in adolescence and abuse? Was my early adolescent discomfort with slow development, due to a glandular disorcer treated as I entered it, abuse when forced to shower with others in HS? Were the older youth who tended to tease and taunt abusive, or just dealing with their own confusion? Will we ever discover a way to walk that irregular line to the satisfaction of all? Meanwhile, we have abundant evidence that many interactions of slightly older mentor youth having huge positive effects on those just entering that scary part of growing. Idolizaion of the big brothers and sisters, or cousins, and even young youth mentors, which is where the youth leadership element plays. How many of us here have seen concrete examples of Joe SPL, or PL mentoring a confused and frightened young scout and then seen that timid boy start to respond and have confidence? That is where the best of Scouting happens, the youth and adult mentoring, and the older youth and younger youth mentoring. I would suggest that the blinders that some are referring to, or the obfuscation of many indications of problems is common to not just BSA, but to our society as a whole. Mission control; "We have a problem". IF whatever shakes out can be inclusive of as much of the youth service/aid groups as possible, then we have accomplished something. But if it does nothing put put money in lawyer's pockets and destroys most critical youth serving groups, does it "fix" anything? We come back to the need for BSA, and ALL youth serving groups, to be constantly vigilant and to put fair, but real teeth into safety of their charges. At the same time, we do not want to think we can solve it completely. That is just a PollyAnna idea, as few psychologists or sociologists will ever completely agree on these issues. As someone already noted, should we expect to also fix the nuclear family and its arms? As most of what I have seen indicates that is where the greatest damage occurs. And similarly, it appears also that there is far more damage in the government systems that supposedly "protect" children. Utopia is shown to be basically impossible. And so is absolute safety of not just children, but people in general, and even property and so on. Meanwhile, as I keep sawing; don't throw out the babies.

I have to wonder; if this individual had the job noted, and he held it into this year, where has he been up to now? When all the stuff hit the fan, was he casualty and lost his job, or did he lose his job due to not being successful with YP? Lots of questions, particularly if this is a sour grapes attack because he got let go?

Actually, he was away at college, and became involved with college activism for Lgbt individuals, being elected to president, I believe of his campus chapter. It made the papers and then the local news in his town. Then it went from there when someone decided he should report him. Meanwhile, the unit was already aware and had not had an issue. It was outside people nosing into it that brought the trouble, and then National moving outside the CO, who had no issue. It was the type of case the activists were waiting for, and the drek hit the fan. But National did not do a good job of fighting it, and it went downhill from there, even though they won the original challenge to decide their own membership. It was then set up for the political activists to blow it completely out of proportion and use the case for their personal gains without caring about the damage they caused Scouting. Women had already been allowed to be regular leaders by then following a push in California. But until that time, few problems had gone public beyond some occasional local situations that were not made a big deal. The issue of abuse though has little to do with the LGBT proponents. Most stats indicate abusers are straight and actually known family or friends, and trusted people; thus scout leaders, teachers, coaches and so on. There will never be a way to completely stop it, but being aware and following the group requirements of no one on one and so on is paramount to mostly stopping it.

Perhaps revise the pullout part of the HB to have specific places for parental and youth initials, not just take their word they covered it? We all know that likely half or more do not really review it, or even look at it. How do we make it more likely to actually have that review?

Again, you are so focused on your own vision of things that you do not look beyond the immediate event. Reality if that Scouting, on the unit and many council levels was moving towards that. But, as too often occurred then, and still does, not just in Scouting, some less than aware people overstepped and made a mess. Mr. Dale's own unit had no issue with him, and so stated. But somebody decided, out side the local council and unit, to make a scene and then National put the stupidity in motion. If, it had been allowed to play out on its own, it would have moved towards the changes. Once outside forces intruded, it was headed to the wreck it became. This of course is an example of top down not having a clue, and often has been subject in various ways of discussions on this forum. Forcing things rarely works out for the best.