skeptic

Seems like mostly a learning opportunity at this point. The worst thing the adults can do is get in the middle of it with some attitude issues, as has been suggested already. The key is that whatever transpires, each of them does a complete project, complemetary or not. We had twin brothers years ago that did project independently but at the same non-profit. They both turned out well, and the recipient of the service was thrilled. Initially, the troop had to deal with the youth and their parents not quite getting that it had to be two separate activities. Of course, at the time, the two were twins that were almost joined at the hip. It was definitely a learning and growth experience for all of us.

This reflects on my contention that BSA, at all levels, should be he poster image for environmental focus. Green if possible, including solar and wind, along with composting and maybe even solar toilets in some cases. Bring internet at high speed to camps if possible. As noted, the photo becomes the collection, which means they use their phones much of the time. Technology can be our frind. BP even acknowledged that at times. Be the example that makes the nastiness of the media have to admit the benefits of Scouting.

On the other hand, this in from Bryan on Scouting offers a valid and, to me, exciting direction to the program, if done properly. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2021/11/19/scout-camps-new-skilled-trades-center-will-introduce-young-people-to-in-demand-fields/ This plays well into the current California redirection of junior colleges to more focus on local options and trade school opportunities. I could see a camp being part of the refocus of this needed venture in redirection of education and skills. We already have a perfect example at our camp with welding, run by Jack Compton, the creator of the main elements of the merit badge. Besides camp, he also does the program for units, usually finalized with a weekend of welding and camping on his property in the Lake Piru area. Proper utilization of the camp properties should include these types of options, as well as more traditional adventures. And, the development might add to the community outreach and positive vibes for the various areas.

Yep, many things we did that made the youth stay were the challenges of games and one on one physical competitions. In the early Scouting materials you can find many such contests that pit one on one. Many, today, would be considered "too dangerous" or "too much of a chance for minor injuries". What those of us now in the doddering stage of life may still remember is that we learned to deal with minor pain and trivial scratches or strains, especially if we defeated an arch competitor. I used to teach the kids to do Indian leg wrestling which means success is often in the quickness and technique, but if the combatants are too different in size much chance for the smaller ones. Yet, the smaller boys often insisted on being rolled just for the fun of it. We also did a balance joust game with padded batons made with old boxing gloves and later additional coverage of foam. At SOR's, we did these things as part of the show, and we were always busy. The worst injury to come out of those SOR contests was my own; a serious hamstring pull when I took on another leader and we were locked in the air in a stalemate for a long while until I literally heard the sound as the pain shot through to my glutes. Could not walk for over a week without serious help. I suppose today if that happened to youth in a contest it would be liability time. That in itself is where much of our problems lie.

The slip is important, especially should the youth get separated from the parent in some manner and the parent cannot be found or brought in a timely manner. Most permission slips, scouting related or otherwise also have medical authorizations for emergencies too.

Entertaining pulp stories published early taking advantage of the Boy Scout interest in youth. Eaton one of the better ones, but most of the books in the genre of the period are poor plots and do not use factual Scouting ideas and skills. That is why BSA did not approve or recommend many of them. Still, the young adult, youth pulp books payed a part in many youth becoming readers, and many graduated to real literature and fine fiction, as well as nonfiction. While this is not my original concept, I would agree based on having read some of them, and noted the outlandish and often dangerous plots. Best part of many were the covers and occasional illustrations.

You can always come back to what a similar experience from completely private vendors would cost. Perhaps someone has some comparatives? My search skills do not work well for me.

That anyone involved should even be making 10% of that figure is obscene. Simply reflects the status of our legal system.

I love the phrase "Kosnoff error". Yeah, right.😒

While I have stated often that our legal system is a morass of inequality and prone to manipulation by greed and legal bending of things, I find the piece makes unfounded assumptions. Mainly, most of the CO's are NOT deep pockets, nor did they have much to do with the actual crimes. It also continues to perpetuate the idea that BSA has resources that are worth far more than reality or restrictions allow. The perception that most local councils have billions in hidden assets is ludicrous. Most have been struggling for decades to simply stay above water. Yes, a few are flush. But they also open those resources to more than BSA, often at cost to those outside the program. Also, many camps have, and will continue to be basing sites for disasters, especially forest fires, at at no cost to the agencies using them. Few are willing to do a complete review of all sides of the complex issues. A good thing though with this piece is that it points harshly at the government connections getting away almost completely, which happens far too often due to twisted laws and court decisions. JMHO, so please do not slay with insipient accusations.

If you read the included link, The Episcopal Church, two variants of the Catholic Church, and the LDS are also noted in the filing.

Years ago, I drove from Ventura to Newport Beach to see the traveling exhibit of the time. I was well worth the stress of the L.A. freeways. Also saw the art, or part of it, in Dallas before the move to Philmont.

It would be great if the event was on tape for us too far away, and too old to travel. You know, half of us on these forums.😊

I believe if he is listed on the charter as both a DL and Committee, then he can work on the DL stuff. He is just duel registered. Benn a while though since I was involved with these things directly.

The two books by Edward Cave are now available online free. Here are links to the two of them. I am fortunate to have the actual original books in my accumulation, including the second printing that was comined with the two. https://archives.library.wcsu.edu/omeka/items/show/2143 https://archive.org/details/boyscampbookguid00cave/page/n8/mode/2up?ref=ol&view=theater

While the content is interesting and shows Ownby's interest, it does not deal with the change in ownership issue, but rather simply the collection's focus on Scouting, as seen in the Rockwells. Hopefully, the change in ownership will continue to allow this type of public contact of the paintings, and maybe even more than when at the National Museum. In some respects, there may be an opportunity to enhance the Scouting story without the distractions of the ongoing legal circus. I could see this type of broader, community reconginzed type of presentation to be a positive thing, maybe even added to from other lesser known artists in the BSA stable over the years. As an aside, while the connection of Rockwell with Boys Life is relatively well know today, very little is common knowledge in respect to his very early book illustrations for the Cave books on hiking and campint circa 1914 and 1915. They are ant interesting study in Rockwell's early technique, still developing at the time. While mostly pen and ink type illustrations, and small, to fit the pages of the book well, even then there is detail that was not common for the time with illustrators. I personally see though a slight similarity to Seton and Beard drawings of the same era, though they were already established in their own right.

This may be a jump-off, and I have no issue with that. The more I review things here and on the FB page "Talk About Scouting", I feel our best opportunity to move ahead and remake our programs is to focus on LOCAL. That means particularly the individual units and to some extent properly reworked, if necessary LC support. The latter is a real issue now, as many are bare bones, such as ours, cut by about 80 percent if you include office and store. Only two professionals left. The good thing is that the districts are doing more and even drawing in a new type of volunteer, so to speak. We are not nearly as dark as we fear within the community. Many outside our own circle are surprisingly understanding of the challenges we face, but feel the program is still a worthwhile part of the community. We need to build on that and try to keep the negative at a distance and assure there are not many additions to that element. We will not get away from the sensationalism of the media, but we can use the tools with which they bludgeon us to counter. They will not look for the positive, so we need to put it out ourselves, and we can.

This entire subject is so convoluted that it really is impossible to truly understand or confront within our programs, in this case, Scouting. We are trying to rationally deal with irrational concepts. Not a real possibility from my view. And the more we try, the more confused our youth could become, along with we who are trying to be mentors. Like religious issues, this really is something that we should not be at the front of, stepping back to allow it to be a family challenge. And no matter what we may do, we will NEVER actually meet the expectations this raises. My opinion, and I understand some will find it wanting.

This entire issue is continuing to be a very large vat of worms, IMO. As has been noted by many since the outset, there is nothing new with this. The entire concept is, and continues to be covered by already in place parts of the idea of Scout Spirit, which includes the Oath and Law as primary components. IF a youth is doing their best to live by those simple ideas, then they should already be meeting the MB requirements. By making these issues more than normal "societal" concerns, things you learn to deal with as a part of the community, then you may cause at least confusion, and in some ways, engender problems where none were before. Just as we cannot stop certain human beings from doing certain things in their own lives and on occasion finding ways to intrude on the lives of our youth, we cannot reach into the minds of others to truly understand. We come back to basic acceptance of the rights of others to lead their lives. But remember, a right is not license, nor should we being doing the job of the parents and family. And forcing this discussion on immature youth is not, IMO, a valid part of the program we are trying to salvage.

A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee. "Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting. What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity: • owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation. • has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head. • is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance. The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is • a Youth Ministry of the Church • an integral part of the parish community and its mission The Charter Organization Representative (COR) • is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District. • recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them. • ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish. • promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs. • supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese. • Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org. • Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District. Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following: • The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders. • The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit. • Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure. Additional information: In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following: • Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols. • The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations, • Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment. With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry. Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation" @skeptic Note below is a copy of above with my guess of original format. ~RS A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee. "Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting. What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity: owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation. has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head. is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance. The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is a Youth Ministry of the Church an integral part of the parish community and its mission The Charter Organization Representative (COR) is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District. recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them. ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish. promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs. supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese. Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org. Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District. Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following: The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders. The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit. Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure. Additional information: In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following: Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols. The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations, Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment. With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry. Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation"

Why should people be surprised. This is the type of individual involved, and they are so cocky that they think they cannot be touched. But I am called out for suggesting they are not nice birds. And they do fly together.

IF, and that can be a big IF with old minds, I am reading the table correctly, over 35% of the total listed claims appear to not know where they occurred, either because they do not know the council, or it is just missing. Also, the types of abuse, as listed, appears to have 6.7% of the total that are unknown or missing. These figures, especially the second one, seem odd to me. I understand time is a factor, but I would think, especially the type would not be forgotten. Granted, if the abuse was cordonned off in their minds, it might be fuzzy; but if it is recognized, I would think it would be more than just a vague "I was abused" memory. Not a psychologist, but it is confusing given the situation. While the specific Council could easily be no longer in existence, the locale should give some indication as to which one it may have been. That said, is the current council then saddled with the problem of the defunct one? All of this is just another problem with trying to fix things from decades in the past.

We likely have no idea what may have transpired behind the scenes with messed up families and simply poor decisions, recognized looking back, of people based on societal norms "of the time". And likely, some of those thngs would fit the description, though hopefully not many. IF we are going to open it all to the world, then let it be ALL, not just that which fits the most grossly. You only need took at myriad stats on this subject that indicate really odd family interactions and fears of retribution or worse. You can read whatever you wish into that, but it seems simply reality, especially when looking back to different "norms".

Meanwhile, we continue to have the non-vetted number of files thrown out as the reality, and we have no idea regarding most of them. Are some actually completely fraudulent? Do some fit into the categories of discussion the last few days, like kids being kids in adolescense, or discomfort under normal camp activities, especially when they still had open showers and kybos that had multiple holes without dividers? So many misleading, or possibly even grasping at the dollars reports. Vetting, including why or how it may have not been dealt with, would make the questions out, for the most part. And please, those that will immediately suggest I do not care, I do. I just want the complete story if we are to hand the dirty laundry, and that should include the dirty laundry of the scammers and victims of the era in which it happened.

The larger question remains; how many of the "reported" files from the IVF are actually in the categories other than the two that might actually cover abuse? There is a strong likelyhood that many of the files the media, and others continue to enumerate "do not" fall into the "abuse" categories. But, it that suggestion is made, the individual is immediately labeled in some manner as accepting of CA. Of course, the average person if they see a story, it is likely one written with the intent to ignore all the peripheral things, and to simply dramatize the worst elements. That is our world in this country, and too many do not have the ability, or so it seems, to separate the chafe from the wheat.