skeptic

Location, location, location.

Truly on point, especially the first few sentences. I would add, just from my own reading and long time overservations, that just getting parents to review YP in reality would be a huge positive thing. Still, I am not sure how we get past the still too common "stigma" if there is an incidence, and the family chooses to either not let it go public, or they even choose to not pursue it all. Add to that, as too oftens still, power of money and politics if the perpetrator has it. But, just actually paying attention and religiously following the alread in place rules would keep most predators away, as they would know it was not worth the effort.

The fact that many of the IV files have little or nothing to do with abuse, or at least sexual abuse seems pertinent. By labeling them as they were, it leaves exactly that impression in the minds of many. Of course the media loved it, and loves it still, and uses it as often as possible to mislead. There is evidence the files actually did in some incidences help stop abusers, though unless there was good reason to contact National, nothing was computerized, so it likely easily fell through cracks. That still seems to ask, for me, what was being done to attempt to respond to these issues by anyone else at the time? Little, if anything appears to be the answer. So, the files are forced into the public view and allowed to be mined. Yet, considering the number there, few have proven to be smoking guns; though apparently some have. Again, the additional question is what other persons or agencies may have been aware of these things at the time? How much did the societal taboos affect things at the time. How many families may have felt the need to not bring things public, nor to fight the practices of the time? So many other factors involved. And we still come back to simple statistical things that indicate, based on incomplete data to be sure, that BSA did better than most at the time. There is no question that errors in judgment occurred, and unfortunately a few really heinous cases. And that should not have happened. But that does not make BSA, as an organization, a purposeful predator. We always come back to the fact that in the minds of many, somehow NO abuse should ever be perpetrated, and that is a great goal. But, it is not a real possibility in reality, and even the loudest should recognize that. At the same time, the overwhelmingly positive effect of the BSA over the past 110 years has been positive and its tenets are in sore need of larger acceptance within society. But logic and balance, there's my favorite workd again, does not seem applicable to a few, and that is not something any of us can combat. Our goals ahould be to come to the fairest conclusion as possible, and to continue to work on stronger barriers to those who will act in predatory ways. We certainly see that progress being made; but it will only be as good as those that will pay attention and follow the rules. Again, human nature may come into play, and when it does, the response needs to be open and immediate. For my part, I will do my best to no longer label certain, what I feel are bad actors in this drama. That does not mean I will not still see them that way, just not pass it along again. Do understand that I in no way feel the survivors are not due a settlement. I just would like it to be in step with the lady and her scale.

I suppose it depends on your definition of damage. But, he is the one that labeled the IV files the perversion files early on. He has interfered with the ballots, and he has apparently intruded on other communication of which he is not a part. Most importantly, he has done all he can to paint the BSA as the predator, rather than those that actually were. His actions very likely have put the larger case in jeopardy. Just my interpretation and impression, so take as you will.

Fair enough; but that will not cure the damage he has done, and may continue to do, with his game. As it almost seems like one much of the time. "Poke the bear"; and maybe I have become an annoyed bear?

Fascinating is an odd word for him. But my words for him are not acceptable. Suffice it to say, he certainly reflects much of the worst that causes the legal profession to be seen in such a negative light much of the time.

Can someone perhaps clarify how this new California law affects Scouters that are registered in other states and visit Califonria? Also, how will it apply to things like the Reserve charter entries, especially college? For that matter, outside of Scouting, how will it apply to youth groups from other states, or even out of the country?

Now why would they do that?😠

Now I think it is good just as it is. What needs to be modified is the ignorance of far too much of the general public. If you need proof, just look at the continued success of the inane, and really stupid "reality" shows. More and more, and some have been on air for a while now. They make the soaps seem like good TV. Of course, there is also the slow progression of little or no public concern about the use of vulgar language, even in front of kids. And, that is magnified by the incessant beeping of stuff on TV. Nobody is being fooled by the loud beeps, only the censors. And I do not really think they believe they are doing anything with the bleeps. It is all show for the legal stuff. I no longer try to suggest to kids that using modified terms that do not actually use certain words is just like actually saying them. Sadly, many of their parents seem oblivious to it as well. Standards are not something many people seem to understand, or want anymore. And while all this is going on, BSA is in the middle of this legal mess regarding abuse. It is almost double speak. So, I would suggest that the world in general could benefit from trying to live by the precepts of Scouting. As I tell the youth; On My Honor, I will do my best". Failure is okay IF they are actually trying to do their best. I also stress that their best is not the same as anyone else. Only they know if they are making that effort. Of course, the concept of Honor itself is becoming a subject for many to make light of, just as they do so often with calling someone "a Boy Scout" in derision, as if those tenets were simplistic and meaningless.

Here is the third part, I hope. It would not load with the others.

Scans of the an article in Century Magazine from February, 1920. Very positive and descriptive piece, and reflects, in my view, much of what scouting is and was, but for some reason our society does not notice, or understand. One of the photos in the article, showing service, I feel reflects the willingness of Scouts to interact with the Black community.

This email just received from our Methodist leadership. View this email in your browser BISHOP HAGIYA Briefing on BSA (1/12/2022) Pending court approval of a settlement agreement in the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) bankruptcy case, United Methodists have agreed to contribute $30 million to a $3 billion Survivor Trust Fund that will receive contributions from the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), insurance companies and charter organizations. Every annual conference is asked to raise funds to contribute toward the $30 million toward the Survivor Trust Fund. The fund will be used to compensate persons alleged to have experienced abuse while in Scouting. The BSA filed for bankruptcy as it faces more than 80,000 claims for alleged child sexual abuse over the last 80 years. United Methodist congregations sponsor more than 6,000 Boy Scout troops and Cub packs. I am so proud of our United Methodist connection: Our Council of Bishops, Chancellors and Treasurers have worked together to care for the victims and negotiate a minimum of our liabilities as a church. Our own Annual Conference has decided to cover the entire amount of our obligation for the settlement. This means our local churches will not have to raise funds for this purpose. This is the United Methodist connection at its best! United Methodists participated in the bankruptcy mediation process with five goals. Healing and support for survivors Releases from claims related to sexual abuse for United Methodist congregations that chartered Boy Scout troops and Cub packs Releases for all charter organizations Preservation of congregations’ and annual conferences’ insurance A fair and just financial settlement The settlement agreement meets each goal, but the cornerstone of the United Methodist settlement was the healing and support for survivors. “When people hurt, United Methodists help,” said Bishop John Schol, chair of the UMC Leadership Team created to support the United Methodist chartering organizations in the bankruptcy matter. “The commitments of United Methodists, working together, are bringing healing, hope and wholeness to the survivors.” The United Methodist Church does not tolerate sexual abuse of any kind and has consistently worked to keep young people safe. Most of the 80,000 claims occurred in the 1950s through the 1970s. Since that time, new practices and policies have been put in place by the BSA and UMC, which has dramatically decreased child sexual abuse. For United Methodists, only 1 percent of all claims alleged to have taken place in and through United Methodist Scouting programs occurred in the last 20 years. While that is a dramatic reduction, even one case is too many. In addition to a financial contribution, United Methodists are committing to the following: Train leaders to meet with and hear the experience and hopes of any survivor who participated in Scouting activities connected with a United Methodist congregation. Review all Safe Sanctuaries/Ministry Safe policies and update as necessary. Develop a series of articles about how to ensure safe youth programing. Participate in a survivors’ justice and healing working group formed by survivors who filed claims. Each annual conference is now being asked to commit to follow-through with the United Methodist commitments listed above by agreeing to the following: Identify leaders who are willing to be trained and listen to survivors’ experiences. Review all Safe Sanctuaries/Ministry Safe policies of congregations and the conference to ensure they are up-to-date and are being followed. Re-publish the series of articles about child sexual abuse. Raise funds for the Survivors Trust Fund. Working together, United Methodists are making a difference. Be the Hope, Bishop Grant J. Hagiya Los Angeles Area Resident Bishop

It is becoming more and more clear to me that in reality, probably always has been, this case has less to do with the survivors than it has to do with money to the legal scavengers. Meanwhile, it is difficult to imagine the resurgence of emotional turmoil for those that are the fodder for the lawyers. And, we who still harbor hope that somehow we can simply refocus the program on those that so need it today, find ourselves frustrated and in a seeming endless limbo. It is simply sad that the very tenets of Scouting, the ones that have turned out millions of good citizens and strong adults is somehow not recognized for its overwhelmingly positive impact on a society begging for direction. That compass point symbol still carries significance for the overall betterment of our country and society. The past cannot be repaired. But the future can be redirected and refocussed on societal growth and movement from ego and greed.

Back to one of my favorite thoughts. Balanced and well written. It seems to reflect somewhat accurately the realities of the time it occurred, and the responses of various individuals. And, while BSA is noted, as is the Catholic Church, they did not turn the article into a verbal lynching of them. It accurately notes that at the time, too many societal responses and ideas were not in accord with what is better known. At the same time, it also does not blame the camp, but rather the perpetrator and cutltural attitudes. I have to wonder if the camp was not a small, mostly well respected facility, but instead had franchises and could be considered to have financial resources, if we would not see some lawyers coming out of the woodwork to milk it. But, that is perhaps my own skewed views of the legal system as a whole, and not just my exasperation with what I continue to see as an unfair, or "unbalanced" response to the BSA, especially since they too seem to have been responding with the common manner of the times, and is some respects, like with the IV files, were even going a bit farther. The size of BSA, in comparison is a factor, and this article certainly points out that it is not a problem just for BSA or the Church, but rather a still shadowy thing, often hidden by the victims themselves, some of whom still choose to keep it in the dark of the past. Thanks for sharing the link. It helps to get a bit clearer reflection on the issue, even as it does speak of connected concerns of how to respond, and also how to help.

We are back to the wishful speculations and refusal to see the larger realities. Most councils have struggled for years to keep above water, and some had those "old resources", but they passed and are in the past, as most families chose to NOT continue any real largess. On this forum, the loss of camps has been an ongoing complaint. Part of it may be lack of use/attendance; some may be poor maintenance over time; and some is simply time itself and encrouchment of the once distant communities around them. Natural disasters are not something for which it is possible to plan, only try to make camps as sturdy and fire resistent as possible. And, due to some of these factors, even if some unexpected money comes into a picture, the needs are generally more than the amount in many cases. In our case, not only is the only remaining active camp still in need of millions to make up for deferred maintenance, but the council office, which is a historical building, needs a huge amount to make it useable throughout. Not only dealing with aged building issues, but also the historical elements. Much of the properties held by councils, as has been discussed, may have special legal fiats on them from the donors. Location often makes the property a target, and too often it is lost because of that. And then the service options it once offered need to be duplicated, but at more modern expense levels. Back to one of my favorite words. Balance. It is an important factor in most larger issues dealing with people and the societal changes. JMHO of course.

This jogged a thought. Our youth, the peers of scout that is living in such a situation, often become the protectors in some form. But they also have been known to point out an issue. Over more than 40 years, I have seen it. The group becomes a safe place for the youth, even extending to them a temporary escape, quietly taking them in to their homes when one is needed. These are the things too often we do not see, and I admit that much of my experience is past tense, discovered in visiting with past youth over decades. A few of those mistreated youth, now adults, have directly told me their story, years later, being thankful for the haven we and some members offered.

Thanks RS; that is what I should have done I guess. Of course we also have to have approvals on the council level, as well as YP and in some states other certifications.

Enough to allow you to give correct info if needed and to evaluate fairly the completion of the written requirements. Ideally, of course, you might specialize in a subject, which SHOULD make the prior comment mute. On the other hand, and this is just my opinion, we should not have counselors that really have no background at all in a subject unless they pursue that level of knowledge prior to taking it on. Obviously, some things are pretty straight forward, but many are open to interpretations of some things, and some ask the Scout to actually discuss it. So, the mentor should be able to be at least on that level, and preferably a bit higher.

The best solution is for people to follow the rules and actually report concerns as needed. Then, as soon as possible, deal with the issue and any actual violators, no matter how connected. And, BSA, at all levels must be sure to validate any refusals beyond their power to deal with the issues. That means authorities than poo-poo things, people that make threats of legal action with no foundation other than trying to intimidate, and also document any family choices that are made to NOT do something. Lots of grey area, and unless there is validation of actual attempts to do the right thing, it will still come back on them. Again, just a view based on what has come out over time, both recently and in the past. Of sourse, if we had any people with guts, they would also find a way to overhaul the whole legal approach to these types of things, BSA, or other areas.

Only if he has taken YP training and been vetted in whichever states that have special volunteer requirements.🙄

Yep, every year we see sticker shock discussed and screamed about relating to the cost of summer camp. Compare it to most other group type camps and it is a bargain. If you took the family to an amusement park for one day you would pay close to half that amount. Still, these things are planning issues and should be on the calendar a year out for approximate costs. And scouts are better off actually earning part, or all of their camp cost. It is part of a good program, learning to pay your way. My experience is that scouts that have contributed to their camp cost directly generally enjoy more for some reason. Still, some families can be priced out of high end camps. Here in So Cal, going to Catalina is truly expensive; yet two camps are there and always full. It is always a challenge to prioritize things, and find ways to meet challenges. Most parents know already in our area that summer camp is always going to be at least around $500 with spending money and incidentals. On the other hand, how much will you not spend to feed the youth while home, or to allow them local entertainments like movies or museums, not even considering the high cost parks? Pick and choose, and decide what is best or the most bang for the buck. Just an opinion of course. We struggle every year to fund our low income members to camp, but we get them there if possible, and they grow from the experience.

It occurs to me that we might want to consider either shutting this down, or finding a way to avoid emotional overloads for some victims or others. Obvioously, the thread has a detrimental effect on a few, and they seem wont to take it out on other posters, often making unfair attacks on those that are fortunate to not have suffered the specific taumas that trigger some. As I have suggested before, we all have things in our lives that are bad memories and possibly serious pychological and maybe even physical traumas. How they affect us differs, and some of us prefer to not talk much of these things, and perhaps are fortunate to not be "triggered". That is not a reason to accuse us of ignoring other forum posters' pain. Few of us are qualified to measure the damages inferred on here, nor do we intentionally intend comments to hurt others. If the moderators have some idea how to deal, it may be time to do so. Just my personal view, and I hope I will not be once again be accused of not caring and other worse things. Thanks for the time.

From the BSA official material. "The official scout uniform consists of shirt, pants, belt, and socks. A neckerchief and hat are optional. In reality, each unit may have different uniform expectations, with some expecting socks to hat while others expect just the shirt. Having all scouts consistently uniformed for meetings and outings makes for a much better adventure. It is also important to remember that the scout uniform is not a mandatory part of scouting and a scout should not be prohibited from participating just because they do not have a uniform, or a complete uniform." "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization’s Congressional Charter."

Have no idea how long they may last, but we have had two district level executives added this month. They had all been riffed last year, and it was only the exec and assistant doing it all, with two office part timers and part time store. They did keep the camp ranger. One of the newbies has no Scouting experience other than a brother who was one; he was not. The other is an Eagle. Have not met them as yet, and waiting for bio's. It was not too long back we had as many as six field exec's, and two years ago still 3.

Thanks; it is now much clearer to me what is going on with it. I guess I should have understood that part of the actual background check includes the fingerprints, which then allows the process as noted with the procedure above. That then will not only validate the prints for their file, but also verify that no criminal issue is connected to my prints already on file.