skeptic

Every contact I had in the past had the details available. It was certainly clear to me then, and still is. Yes, it is sort of part of the vanity press world, but it is not a scam, as the details are readily shared. On the other hand, the follow up cards and even phone calls can be confusing. In the end, it is a personal choice. Like most things, just be sure you understand it and decide for yourself. My comment about negative is that too many suggest it is IS a scam, even though it has been around for over a decade now. Just because some do not feel it is worthwhile and too expensive does not make fraudulent. But just my view and not worth any more discussion.

It is an apparently annual thing, sort of like the publishe your poem or short story things. Not a scam, just a way to get the Eagle out there in some manner, but mostly a fund raiser to support the annual scholarships. The book itself is mostly vanity, though it may have some use for historical review in a vague way. I doubt many outside Scouting will review it though, at least I have not heard of it being used by recruiters or others. Every year now for the last five or six we get this same question. And we get the same individuals making negative comments while most just note it is real, but not of great use except for the money it raises for the very "useful" scholarship program. You do not have to buy it, but you might want to make sure the info is correct.

Not being the legal guy, I may have simply not seen or understood. But, I think our unit, as Methodist, is part of the final plan with no other action needed by our local entity? What I do not see anywhere is reference to the other claiments that filed to attach to the lawsuit, such as GS of USA and some in process lawsuits? Any clarifications from someone?

Just about twenty minutes ago I got off a short Zoom with two BSA senior staffers, one being Mr. Mosby and the other involved with membership, and two high level Methodist leaders who have been involved with the ongoing challenges with the church and scouting. Most importantly, the Methodist leaders very forcefully states the Methodist Church IS NOT turning their back on Scouting. They see it as a major avenue to reach young people in more positive ways, and feel Scouting has the means. They discussed that we, Methodist units need to immediately update "Membership roles", as opposed to Charter issues. The BSA and UMC have already agreed to extend the Charters through June; but the actual membership needs to be updated in order for legal safeguards to stay in place. The Bishop from the church, and the leader from the United Methodist Men, who is the connection within the larger church for all youth groups, have been working on working out the issues and hope they will not have to have extensions past June. So, this was a direct broadcast on Zoom and will have copies shared with all who attended and others interested within the programs. Please stop with the ongoing noise about the Methodists tossing Scouts out, and so on. However, some individual churches/congregations may choose to do so anyway, but it is NOT the direction of the National Church. One other statement that came from this was that whatever new type of CO arrangement is developed, it will hopefully be viable for other CO's as well, and help with the concerns regarding legal problems and such. If this might be better in the main thread, please move it.

My response is that the jerking around is being done by the whole process and the continuing threats against CO's by some involved in the process, or on its periphery. CO's, especially Methodist, who is the largest now, and always was the one with the most membes outside LDs, just like other CO's cannot afford to just sit back and let the legal hounds continue to prey on them. So, they are working to try for a viable process going forward for their best protection on the legal side. The misconception that all the churches are deep pockets is just that, a misconception. It is much like the ideal that because there are large camps and so on in the BSA network, they can just sell it all. Not true, and many local churches are in serious financial stress due to aging congregations and the changes in spiritual direction of much of the population. Meanwhile, those old church properties continue to serve their communities, often as meeting sites for other non profits and community outreach. If the are sold, due to location or whatever, they end up with no place of their own and often put out other service oriented groups. Few of them could ever again afford to have the sites they now have due to the factors noted about the congregations, as well as simply the out of sight real estate costs in what now are often prime locations in many areas. If we are part of the community, we are connected to it. And every piece that plays a small positive part is important. Money does not make the community. The people and their groups make it with their participation and sharing. Until the majority can see the error of basing almost everything on themselves and monetary "worth" we will continue to sturggle more than we should. Egotism and selfishness never serve us well in the long run.

Just for info; there is a Zoom meeting this afternoon/evening with the National Methodist leader for Scouting and Mr. Mosby. It is only open to listen or give written questions, but hopefully will clarify some things. Charters are now extended through June, but that still leaves a hole with registrations, which is our major concern at this time. The good thing is that there is actually effort being made. Or that is my perspective, anyway.

Now you have made me suffer my tauma of flunking canoeing a number of times due to never mastering the J-stroke. But, I did get sympathy from a row boat full of cute girls on Jenks Lake at old Camp Arataba summer of 1959.. They offered to rescue me while I was swamping my canoe in the middle of the lake before eventually paddling back to shore in my zig-zag pattern that doomed me.🙂 Oh well, I get there; just not in a straight line. That included war canoes on Catalina; though there were others to make up for me.

Yep; that is the issue with this whole thing. Blow it out of perspective and suggest it is rampant all over the country. Just not the case, nor ever has been. Hype, hype, hype and negativity where it really barely exists. And for those few that keep suggesting that means I think the abuse that has happened is okay because it is not rampant. Please keep it to yourself.

Since when is thirty million dollars a small amount?

Similarly, I come back to the utipian idea that each case would be dealt with based on its merits with outside, but unvbiased by money or power of position, and the payouts be, "fair and balanced". Weeding out the grifters and viewing known factors is the fairest and best way, but due to the time frames and simply the changes in society that is almost impossible. All victims, or survivors if that is the better term, should be treated with fairness based on known a verifiable factors. None should be "paid more" just because they have the ability to bring the most pressure or stretch the legal boundaries. Reality is that this "should be" scenario is likely not possible. So, we need to reach the best results possible, while doing whatever is viable to move forward with the best barriers and rules in place and regularly monitored, at all levels. And it should be under constant review and bend to best practices, including those outside the BSA. Of course, until somehow the larger system that allowed these crimes, as well as poor decisions under stress or other outside factors like legal threats and family choices for the time. All of these played, and might, unfortunately play again with the reality of societal interactions. Focus on the protections and vie for the least failue with constant review and vigilance. Then work the program and make it better for the youth and others interacting. No absolutes, but we can get close. We cannot depend on government or even a rebuilt legal system. Ultimately it is on all of us.

Thank you for that comment. I hope that they have already recognized this issue and it is part of "Council" having instructions in this regard. I am speaking with our own council tomorrow and will have additional info. The good thing, fingers crossed, is that the Methodists are still on board to be a CO, just with better protection.

Part of this notes that the registration element is separate from the Charter, and that is supposed to happen still if necessary. Councils should have the details in regard to that; again as per the article.

This just posted in the United Methodist's Men web site. Charters extended through June to allow time to work through the myriad remaining concerns. https://www.umc.org/en/content/united-methodists-extend-bsa-charters-through-june-2022

Sadly, unless a major revamp of the legal system is also made, disreputiel legal people will prey on this as a feeding ground. And, because of our societal perversions, not just sexual, people will respond negatively and loudly against the BSA and other YSO's perhaps. The can of worms will be even larger and less useful in carrying on needed real youth work and growth. Somehow we need, we in the sense of the broader society, to find a way to take the hype and knee jerk condemnation out of anomalous problems, but also realistically react and protect. As I have suggested over and over, the positive of BSA far out strips the negative, but our society focuses on the drama and most salacious and ignores the overwhelming positive. How to combat that is possibly even a bigger challenge.

I have read it, and the it is reprehensible. And that is why the efforts to improve YP should continue. But, it is not the norm, and never has been. Weaning out the worst that prey on others, whether in Scouting or elsewhere is a constant challenge. It is also not an abosolute possibility. Back to the old adage of the baby and the bathwater. But it is your option to refuse to look at the worst as the norm. But, as noted before, I cannot make you get beyond whatever demons push you to ignore the larger and more complete picture. Please just stop painting others with your same negativity.

You seem to be one with one of the broadest brushes and no periperal vision. Many of the ones in your "pervert files" were there for other reasons, as has been noted many time. Reality is that it is a societal problem. I did not say survivors should be overlooked, though I am sure you read that and just choose to ignore it. Your comment about what leadership just indicates to me that you have little or no real grasp of how beneficial overall Scouting has been for the larger society. We are talking about the youths that have stepped up and used their positive scouting experiences to better themselves and the larger communities. Instead of focusing on the small (but real) percentage of problems, we need to take the best parts and magnify them. It is obvious that you prefer to just ignore the preponderance of positive contributions to not just our country, but other countries that have been rendered by Scouting. Hate is almost as bad as abuse, and it does almost, or maybe sometimes more damage. Perhaps you might recognize that. So, please do not belabor your self with accusations and sputtering exagerations. Thank you for your comments; I just wish you could see beyond that cloud of negative and recognize the positive and opportunities that are there with efforts going forward.

Me thinks you paint far too broadly and darkly. I seriously would doubt the numbers suggested, though because of the era involved, and the societal responses at the time, many poor decisions likely "could" have occurred. But, the picture you would have us see does not include the efforts very early to find a way to head off undesirables, as they were recognized. It has been pointed out that while it was not nearly enough, at least some efforts were made far earlier than was common for the times. On the other hand, much of the hyperbole is based on little or no evidence of the level purported. Based on the historical material known, Scouting played and still can play a major part in better commuities. The supposition that there was an organized plan or effort to abuse youth by BSA on the national level seems ludicrous and far fetched. Were there episodes of abuse. That is also likely a given, as Scouting afterall is still part of the larger society. The difference is that most likely the bad players were less common there, especially given the multitudes that passed through in the first century, than in the broader society. Yes, crimes occurred and some were not dealt with honestly and openly. Again, not unusual for the times. Was there a problem? Yes, but I fail to believe it was the magnitude that is played in the frenzy to paint BSA as some are doing. Should there be some penalty to BSA for episodes of very poor decision making and maybe on occasion actual coverup? Certainly, but again, the balance should be found and the mistakes used to make these things less likely to happen. Will they possibly reoccur. Sadly, that is not probable since it is worse in the larger society, though we should see it far less of it. Vigilence and constant review, as is part of the proposals now being suggested are necessary and should be implemented. At the same time, efforts should continue to offer the good of the foundational tenets, and strengthen them as well. Our society needs is begging for the leadership and service BSA has tendered in the past, and still does. But, the yellow press and a few misled or simply "bad" players ignore the positive and push the negative. And our jaded society points fingers, even as they ignore similar or worse crimes against youth and society in general perpetuated by those with power and positions to be far worse than BSA or the various clergy. We cannot shove things under the proverbial carpets, but we can recognize that the lumpy carpets of society are not restricted to youth serving groups or the spiritual/religious organizations. Yes, BSA and other youth groups can do better and should always strive to do so. But it is time to spread the efforts to address the even larger problem that secrets the bad players that prey on BSA and others. I will now step down off the stump again. Please understand that I am NOT denying recompense is due in some manner to the survivors, and I am not suggesting that we just ignore the bad management and decision making. Only pointing out that BSA and others are still part of the larger society, and that the bad players are lurking there, waiting for lack of vigilance that will allow them in.

This gets muddier as we go. Not the legal guru, but I want to know what is the status of the vetting of the huge amount of last minute claims? How much of an effect does that have, and would it not benefit the survivors by weeding out outright fakes and overblown claims? Want to get this in the rearview mirror so we can move forward locally without too much worry.

Without complete rebuilding of the legal system that got us here little will happen without waste and actual balance.

Three things come to mind initially for me. Living in California where a new Volunteer law took effect this year, we have to adhere to that state madate. It is not overly expensive, but there is a price factor for the fingerprinting and background check. The councils within the state are supposedly developing a plan to to include all councils, but it is still not presented to us. This is on top of any other background checks already done through BSA. It is my understanding that some other states also have some type of similar law on the books now. These, it seems to me, should be joined in a nation wide statute which makes them all alike and offers their implementation as inexpensively as possible. Having overlapping and possibly conflicting laws and checks in varous state will be confusing at least, and possibly very problematic in some cases. How does the California law and therefore requirement effect a Scouter simply coming to the state on a trip, with or without scouts? Similarly, in other states with their own versions of this? Second, what will be done to combat the real issue of parental/guardian lack of concern and "real" adherance to the parental/guardian part of YP, discussing in depth with their children, and they themselves actually being aware and informed? Right now we all know that the "sign off" is often just that. These then are the same parents that scream that their child was not protected, even though they never actually addressed it. To me, this seems a major concern, not just in BSA, but in society as a whole. People simply choose to ignore things unless they are suddenly confronted with them directly. Too much of the "int is not my problem or conern" attitude. Finally, I find it possibly contradictive to talk about protecting the survivor, while at the smae time putting up memorials of some kind and offering a "pin" or something. Granted, the wearing of such an item would be a choice by the survivor, but does it really serve a purpose? Should its meaning, like square knots, be open to youth wanting to knwo what it stands for? Is that the place of the survivor to explain it to a minor, possibly without their parent/guardian approval? Lot of vetting before implementation of some of these things, or so it appears to me. With our legal system, the same one that has put us here to begin with, are we opening up another "legal" morass for the less than ethical lawyers? And, we still are not admitting that no matter what is done, there will be bad actors that somehow get by.

Some of the earliest Rockwells also were published in the Redcross Magazine. Also, a few were on the Saturday Evening Post, and one or two other peiodicals. He was a prolific illustrator in his prime, and so some there was a wide variety of periodicals that on occasion has something from him, though The Post and BSA publications had the most due to his early connection when just starting out.

Today is the official anniversary of the BSA, 112 years.While it has evolved and is evolving still, and it has struggled often, mostly due to it membership being real people and burdened with human foibles, it continues.Just think if the tenets most of us here know were strived for by all, and not made fun of, how much better ou society might be.

It is hard to understand how the Girl Scouts can not be embarrassed by this. The BSA claims on the basic symbols of Scouting predate any the GS might declare. Their sour grapes is somply their own fault anyway, as they did nothing to meet the long term demands of many girls to have programs similar to BSA. It has been obvious from almost the beginning that Lowe was not fond of BSA, partly because she was not fond of BP or the Girl Guides. The desire of some girls to become Scouts can be documented to the girls that showed up at the first international gathering in England, telling BP they wanted to be Scouts too. This of course let to Guiding. Someone with more ability might determine if there is truth to stories that GS more than once threatened legal action when BSA planned to develop products similar in nature to the Cookies of GS, such as cakes and nutrition bars with Scouting symbols. What is really crazy is that while they are complaining about the entry of girls into the BSA, they refuse to recognize that many of the girls joining BSA are also Girl Scouts and continue in their program. So, explain please how that is damaging to them. They also need to not forget that in today's society, their disparaging comments about the abuse issues will likely just bring more digging by some, and that they themselves might become a target. They are surely not immune to bad actors, and by pushing the envelope, they may get kick back they do not want. It is sad that in much of the rest of the Scouting world, girl groups are able to work with boys, even to some extent in countries with very strict laws regarding women. What does the infer in regard to the GS leadership? Now the other noted things may or may not have credence, though they also might just be more of some of the devious pursuits of some legal opportunists to ride on the wave. In the end, we are back to the convoluted and often questionable legal system we allow to continue in our country.

Very possibly a separate thread, but I continue to shudder at what in my view is a major problem in our society. For over a century, one of the things that has made our country, and its myriad communities successful and viable has been the many types of non-profit groups that have reached out to the less fortunate and also taken on much of the community interactions for overall societal improvements and solutions. Now, due to our messed up and terribly skewed legal system, that basic tool of community interaction and helping others is being bludgeoned by a constant threat of legal problems. I realize that there are a few very negligent or misguided, and even some simply perverted individuals in all of our communities. But, they are not the norm, and while errors in judgement and non recognition of problems has always been possible, and even likely in the larger groups, it is not the intent of these service and outreach efforts. But, now, due to this focus on finding the deepest pockets to hold accountable, even though they were not directly responsible for the bad actor(s), though some think they should be culpable just for their poor oversight or blinders. This continued overreach, it seems, is now making fewer and fewer groups willing to offer help and service, either due to fear of legal issues, or just the cost of protecting against that fear. And, fewer individuals are willing to any longer put themselves our there to work within the communities, sue to the same fears. That is not to suggest that actual predators and bad actors are not to be held accountable, only that the overreach, mostly for exhorbitant monetary punishments, has knocked that Scale of Justice off its pedestal. Even faith communities, ones that have for over a century tended to the communities with free or inexpensive meeting places and volunteer aid are drawing back. They no longer can absorb the cost of a bad actor being on their property due to long time community options of their facilities. Perhaps I am more naive than I might realize. Or, maybe I am just viewing things from the wrong generation? I have gone on and on about balance, and that certainly applies. So does the reality that there are indefinite shades of grey between black and white.