skeptic

The idea of making HA bases into NP orgs actually seems to me a viable thought. As long as the focus is, well, focussed. Opening them up to more non-scout groups could likely lower the costs to Scouting groups who would get priority. And that also might include working out opening them to other World groups.

That is your opinion, though it is wrong. Good luck with dealing with your personal issues.

Sorry, but I think you are asking a truly misquided question. I am simply pointing out that trauma, either physical or mental, especially if repressed for decades for some reason, causes problems that can torment, especially if something happens to trigger it again. You surely can understand that without implying what you seem to be implying. There are NO traumas that do not leave some type of hidden scars mentally. And often they are put into our emotionally padded rooms to stay unless triggered. Many are worse than others, but they are all real and leave their own scars. And none of them should be trivialized because ours is "worse"; they all require us to find a way to adjust and with luck keep them locked down.

Our problem is that none of us see things exactly the same, and certainly do not intelectually and emotionally respond the same to various issues. And, it depends on the age of those experiencing a trauma. Very young emotional or physical trauma may be so buried that few ever really undrstand what that small discomfort or awful fear is that comes to them in dreams or with some trigger. Until if connected my brother's teasing me about his sunlamp being a wolf's red yee, I could not sleep without some light. Once I figured it out, it no longer was a problem. Similarly, I understand why electricity frightens me because my parents told me about my putting a bobbye pin in a wall socket when still in diapers, and the result. I can sort of laugh, since I survived, but that is still scary to me, and I find myself telling young parents to make sure they child proof things. Maybe why the title ofthe movie Fifty Shades of Gray is so powerful when you think about it.

Say it like it is. Greed has made this entire process into fiasco, with as noted just now again, only the lawyers actually winning anything. If not for the presssure to try to magnify the pot at the expense of currrent youth and really the expense of the verified survivors/victims, more has likely been lost than might have been availible with reasonable and balanced efforts by people not looking for a big payoff, but rather a fair and viable offer that recognizes the errors of the past and makes a legitimate monetary payment and also sets into motion additional safeguards to be added to the many BSA already had put in place. Agree or not, there is NO absolute monetary payment that will take away the emotional and physical damage done to the victims/surviors. As heinous as a few cases were, and as unsavory the lesser ones, it is almost just another slaop in the face of Survivors/victims to take drag this out at their expense, as well as the expense of the youth and the program that still roffer and receive benefit, and also return so much to our society. But, nothing much will change in relation to how this has gone off the rails, or how many others have similarly done, until we fix our out of waxk legal system and take the landslide profits out of the hands of the worst of the legal predators and scavengers. JMO, and as noted, a few will suggest I am not empathatic or worse. But I like my see/saw to actually go both ways.

Now please do not destroy the negative bubbles mrjohns2. So, as this thread continues, some resourceful or more determined are finding indicators from the awful files that support the idea that at the time of many of these occurences, there WAS pressure from parents and authorities to NOT publicize things. With enough digging, how many more "might" hint at these types of choices "at the time"? Those that continue to try to make sense of how people thought decades ago, or how they reacted, will not be able to do so with a perspective of today. I am pushing 80, and I know for a fact that these types of things were NOT dicussed clear up into the late sixties or later, and only in the last decade or two have really been brought into the light. Just like the use of some terms for Blacks, or for Gays, or for other nationalities. Up until the seventies it was still common to hear terms attached to people from Axis countries that today are considered unacceptible. Most of us as kids did not have a clue, just knew that those terms were used by many adults. As a kid in the fifties, I had no understanding of the Red Scare, other than adults said negative things about Russia and the Iron Curtain, as well as about Asian countries. It wasn't until I was around fifty that it dawned on me why a neighbor when I was about 10 or so told my parents I was singing a bad song. I had grown to favor a song by Dick Haymes; my parents had it on a 78 and I liked the tune and words and learned it. The elderly woman next door took offense. Haymes had been Black Listed, but I did not understand that and could not figure out why she thought the song was bad. Not the song, but the singer. I did not start to grasp the sea changes of the early to late sixties until I went to college in Riverside and actually went to school with blacks and intermixed with them. My dad was still calling them "colored", and he had worked with them for decades and he and my mother had Black friends in 29 Palms, as well as the San Gabriel Valley where we lived prior. They both attended Inglewood High in the thirties; and both were born in the midwest. Long winded I guess, but the point is that society changes on its own terms, or in a way forced by other winds of change. Just like we need to learn to adjust to climate change and its myriad tentacles of environmental challenge, we need to also learn to adjust to changes in societal norms, understanding we cannot change the norms of the past, just as we cannot change the effects of poor environmental practices of the past, like strip mining, or water blasting, or not keeping filth from mining and our cities out of the water. But, we CAN find ways to mitigate those things today now that we understand the dangers. Evolve, evolve, evolve, but try keep that evolution positive for today and the future, and not think we will change the past. Anyone over forty or fifty might with a little memory search find similar things from their past that today seem so wrong and out of place, and those of us from the early to middle twentieth century birth dates, have seen huge swings in public attitudes and of course political changes.

While I am not one to make too much noise about California foolishness, because much of it seems to make sense in regard to the environment and freedom in many areas of society. They surely do not have a lock on legislative stupidity for sure. But this one is already on the path to appeal. Our local area Ojai Valley Gun Club has temporarilty shut down their junior program due to concern they could be accused of advertising "shooting" to youth. The bill is aimed at advertising, but the club has a legal opinion that it is not clear, and the actual youth program could easily be misconstrued. Surely most on here see this overreaction as just more ignorance and CYA stuff. What posssibly could be wrong with encouraging firearm safety by teaching it? https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB2571

I spoke to our Minister again today, and he assured me that they want us there. We are in our 101st year, and they are proud of their affiliation with us. Three units, though only the troop is old. Had cubs off and on in the fifties, also a Sea Scout Patrol (not ship), Explorer posts, and a Venture Crew. The sticking point for me is the ownership thing. Ther rest is pretty much the same anyway. They need to fix the concern about the LC being able to just take our stuff because they "own it". The have the money separated it seems. As I noted somewhre, maybe here, it would seem there could be a cluse that gives the units use of all the equipment and to have that use exclusively in impertuity or something. It is not yet done I do not think. Lots of concerns and confusion.

You could make similar comparisons to many others of the day, and even today. In theory, the Y in its various states over more than a century would likely be held in similar esteem; Young Mens' Christian Association (and women's); or the various youth clubs that were common prior to organized youth sport, or any of the religiously connected groups, and of course the educational boards and schools with their members. All of them had/have some kind of "expectation" of higher moral values. Yet, all of them have examples of not meeting those expectations, and as noted in numerous past comments, many of them were far more likely to fall short based on what we know. The main point is that society, in theory, has these expectations, but often the wolf leers and lurks waiting for the shepherd or the guard dog to lose their focus and even their protective nature. BSA is really and always has been just another element of the larger society, and overall met that higher standard, though failing badly in some instances. Those failures, though few statistically in relation to the membership, should not have happened or should have had better responses. They have admitted these failures and also have over time made efforts to try to combat that societal weakness, often doing it with little support beyond themselves over the eras. It is still the truth that the failures lie at the feet of not just BSA, but many elements of society, including too often family and close associations other than BSA. And no amount of continued beating of the horse will change history.

Well, why are we in this mess now? The less than straight forward lawyers did exactly what they do when given a chance. The files were not witheld, just not open to the public. Of course, we also still need to consider the eras as well, espcicially the libel laws of the past. You will never find a perfect answer, and there is not doubt many mistakes and a great deal of poor judgement when seen in the light of the current society. You cannot separate the realities of trying to remake history. History should help avoid mistakes if viewed with logic and balance, but it cannot fix the past.

But, how much of this will see the broader media, if any? A story that encompasses what Scouting really teaches and is will likely not bring their attention beyond noting some scouts were on the train. But, we all should still be proud of the example.

Hopefully we will see adjustments to this. For example; as part of the agreement for facility use, the BSA, LC will make an impertuity loan of all such equipment to the unit, charging them say $1 or something like that. With a little imagination, the units can continue pretty much on course and not worry that the LC will suddenly step in and say we want all our equipment back to offer to another group, or whatever. Or, can't the equipment simply be owned still by the church and they "loan" it to the unit in perpetuity?

Trying to take a deep breath and see how it goes. Our church has assured us they want us there; in fact we have more space than before for storage and such. They have approved us turning the two main meeting rooms in the basement into partial museums, as we are in our 101st year. My understanding is that other churches with longevit also are hoping to keep that tenure in place. I need to check into it, but if we had to find a new CO, but kept the site, would the unit tenure transfer to the new CO? That is the biggest concern if we needed to find another sponsor. But, until we see how this works, and it will be a bit, just keep "doing our best".

I know we had issues once or twice with the county and maybe even the state. We had to replace the well after it collapsed due to the drought issues and age. Then it had all be recertified. We use a local portapotty system for camp sites and outlying activity areas, and we have a relatively new system at the pool with individual stalls and a connect system to septic tank. The other main part of camp has some challenges due to age, but is also septic connected but needs updating. The county keeps a very close eye on us; do not know if they do that to other camps in the area, but would hope so.

Say what you will, these people seem to not find their levels of billing usurious. Who on here, of normal populace, ever made three digit hourly rates? What is non working transportation hours? I know, it is our system. And that is half the problem, as it has become far too much of money pit than a legal equity and fairness instrument. And since the wolves are in charge of the system, little will change unless we find a way to get rid of many of the wolves. Just saying. I am a peon, and this whole thing reeks, and worst of all is that the survivors/victims are also getting abuse again by this whole thing, along with the BSA and its conveyors of the programs. Maybe I am just too jaded and old to comprehend the new universal right of excess and greed.

Thank you for another perspective. I agree we need to deal with our own issue in BSA. I just wish the field would widen to deal with what seems a really larger concern, one that "nobody is watching". Those places could even include some of the individuals NOT able to get involved with BSA due to their efforts to do some kind of prevention, and those prevention methods improving. It is a societal problem, as well as one related to the worst parts of humanity. But we also do not want to see another disaster like the McMartin case.

Let me try one more time. The point is that the lack of safeguards in most of these camps is a far larger problem than the BSA due to the apparent lack of reasonable oversight. So, and the article hints at it, abuse is one of the things that the camps are open to and in a far greater way due to the lack of oversight. Note also the comment that no body wants to take that oversight responsibility. IF BSA is held to the grindstone when it has verifiably some the safest camps around due to their program requirements and training, and it is still the target of public disdain and legal attacks, even though they are safer, then what is wrong with this picture. Note also that while this is a California story, they note that few states have any real oversight of all these small camps and pseudo day care camps.

The whole point of sharing is that this is happening with no where near the turmoil as BSA has, even though they have far safer camps at far higher usage. So, not sure why the down vote, as it does relate as you noted, in comparison.

This article is on point and also, in my view, suggests how skewed the BSA lawsuit and its fall is. While BSA, that has huge levels of supervision and is in some states almost unable to meet all the restrictions, this is going on with little or no serious attention. And, it is not new, nor is it only in California. The article notes that few states have any real supervision over these types of programs, and that most government entities seem to NOT want to take responsibility. It does not excuse the BSA mistakes, it only points out that BSA is not the likely worst player, just has become the whipping group. Take a look. https://timesofsandiego.com/politics/2022/06/19/a-daughters-death-at-day-camp-spurs-drive-for-licensing-laws-in-california/ This is simply sad and frightening, yet has been under our noses for decades. The likely only reason there has not been the clamor that has overwhelmed BSA is that these operations are not National, nor do they have any deep pockets. The black feathered legal opportunists do not see profit or they are so diverse that it would require serious effort to make their financial killing. JMO of course.

Let us try to not jump the gun with our already biased opinions. Until we see the entire agreement, and we also see how it comes together, or apart, we should move ahead. As far as most gear is concerned, the LC will have no place to keep it, and I believe that is actually part of the larger agreement. We will be very wary of how it works, but it is too early to panic completely or rebel. Our local church is still supportive and I do not see that changing.

"Humanity as a whole" is the key phrase here. And BSA at any level cannot fix that, no matter how many lawsuits or dollars are offered. That of course is the problem from day one. People in BSA are part of the larger existence, "Humanity", or the human species. And controling all of them is not possible, only watching as well as you can to keep the evil ones away. And even then, as is shown, no manner of rules or methods are fool proof. Meanwhile, society continues down the sump while it destroys many of the most overall positive options in its existence. The panacea that somehow we all will be secure from the worst of the larger group is simply that, a panacea. With that in mind though, we also need to try and assure that the safeguards are never let down and that we follow up, even if we are almost positive the problem is not real or is overblown in some manner due to a personal vendetta or simply misunderstanding.

A step, but we need it on the Scout level as well. Really no reason to not have coed other than lack of enough women, and that today should really not be a problem. JMO of course. Meanwhile, we now have to deal with the NEW charter model as Methodist units.

Thanks for the share. It touches on a couple of my concerns as to the approach. One for me is taking for gospel, or at least suggesting, that the 82000 number is accurate, even though few have been vetted even a little it seems, and we know the fact exists some likely were harvested. Another part is the time differentials of much of it. One of the primery survivors notes the abuse was also a teacher and much of the abuse was in school settings. Also there is admission that some did not bring it up until years later when the ads went out. That does not mean they are not victim/survivors, it just means we do not know if anybody might have been able to be charged at the time. The fact the files existed at all is not examined, especially in the context of the time when they started. They also appear to not note or be aware that in a few instances the files DID identify a problem that had moved, which should be part of the larger investigation in order to be balanced. I also have read that not sharing the files had more to do with libel laws of the time than the Red Scare issue. Finally, I really see little reason for noting the Dale issue and the Gay turmoil in relation to this, as one of the criticisms of that in the first place was and is that Gays seldom are also child abusers, so what is the reason for doing that? It remains though that much was not handled well, and some was simply completely botched. Trying to cover up may or may not have been the reason, but it likely played a part. And, no matter what, we know that the unwillingness of the victim/survivor and or his family to expose it in some cases, along with the societal position on such things in most of the time frames involved certainly had and have an affect. Going forward we need to stay on top of the YP program, finding a way to try to guarantee the parents actually pay attention to the available information and updating the youth in some manner. The tenets of Scouting are even more in need today, and we need to strengthen it , not get rid of it. Also we need to see the broader communities become more involved in confronting the rest of the iceberg. And we need closure to happen with the lawsuit so those in it are finally compensated in some manner.

This was a short piece I wrote ages ago for the local newspaper when they were doing a series on summer youth activities and asked me to do one on Scouts. Ironically, not much has changed in the couple of decades or so since. Summer Camp It's 6:30 on a Sunday morning. An assistant scoutmaster and I have been at our scoutroom since 6:00, getting troop equipment prepared for a week's stay at summer camp in the chaparral and pinion hinterlands of northern San Diego county. Now, as the scouts begin to arrive, organized confusion begins. One hour to check, verify, and load equipment and boys. The father who is the extra leader and driver is late. When he arrives, ten minutes late, his two sons are missing. Before he can explain, his wife roars up and the brothers burst out of opposite sides of the car, snarling at each other. Half of the scouts are inside, and the tardy father hopefully asks if we still need him to go; but then he sees the senior patrol leader emerge from the scoutroom directing six boys carrying the troop boxes and flags. He smiles sheepishly and sighs. By 7:45, only 15 minutes late, we're ready to leave. The older brother of the feuding pair has commandeered his father's car for himself and his buddies, relegating the younger to the van. The father seems oddly relieved. As I settle behind the steering wheel of the van, one of the fathers tells me how brave I am to take his son, and 12 like him, to camp for a week; and all of the other parents laugh in agreement. Then a mother asks what time we expect to come back the following Saturday. When I tell her sometime after 4:00 PM, she's pleased because they will not have to fly out of Las Vegas on Friday night. As we finally pull out, all the parents are smiling broadly, and wave with almost too much exuberance. Four to five hours on the road with a group of adolescent boys is a challenge. You'll learn some pretty sick jokes and songs, yell at them to be quiet at least once per hour, break up several push-shove-slap fights, and stop for one or more unscheduled bathroom, (or side of the road), breaks. This trip is no exception. Ironically, I've come to realize that once I wind down, it's pretty enjoyable. More importantly, I learn alot about my passengers; and they learn my limits. Check-in at scout camp is by necessity a tightly scheduled routine. Imagine trying to corral 13 boys who've been cooped up for five hours into this type of regimen. With experienced scouts it's only mildly maddening; but when they're mostly new you'll be ready for the asylum by the time taps is sounded. Fortunately we have only one first year scout, the younger son of our gallant volunteer. Unfortunately, this novice leader has not yet grasped the idea of boy leadership; and his older son is one of these junior leaders. It is a difficult adjustment, but he soon has the good sense to let me worry about it. Our next day is only slightly less chaotic. Yet by evening assembly our campsite is almost livable, and most of the boys are already excited about their activities. By Tuesday even our first year father has found it is fun to do leatherwork with his younger son and that there is a certain peacefulness in late afternoon as you sit alone in the campsite. At week's end the boys have completed 30 merit badges, mostly crafts and aquatic, but also cooking and wilderness survival. They also have garnered two mile swims and five snorkeling patches. And at the closing campfire on Friday night they are awarded two camp wide games firsts and one of four honor troop ribbons. But the award that brings the most troop applause is the second place totem to a beaming first year father for a painful belly flop earlier that afternoon. Saturday morning is anticlimactic. There is less urgency to our packing; though tired we are more relaxed. All of us look forward to a return to "civilization"; but most of us would stay longer if we could. When we arrive home late that afternoon there are no expectant parents waiting; but a phone call is all that is needed in most cases, though there seems to always be one who is not home and for whom alternate arrangements have to be made. When they get there the parents seem less tense than they were the previous Sunday, seem more receptive to their sons' excitement. And every one sincerely thanks us for taking their son to camp for a week.

Webinar this evening. As noted, my main concern is the "ownership model". As noted above, will we have to beg for funding from council, oris there some method that has been designed to circumvent that? I do know that should council somehow think they are going to "take" equipment and other things from us they will not get a positive response. Hope that will not come up. Hoping for a lot of clarification.