skeptic

Government recognized the benefits of the BSA in the first up until around the sixties when so much began to change. That may well have been connected to disallusionment brought on by JFK and Civil Rights. Certainly for me, that was a huge pivot point for me. And I now see my generation as mostly jaded or just tired and having abandoned all the positive energy of the Kennedy enthusiam. Interactions with BSA were shared and often cooperative endeavors to improve society, not only with the military interactions where we could camp on bases and work with them at times, but also shared resources, such as happened with A.P:. Hill's jambo use. That was a screaming point for some of the radicals against anything positive with BSA at the time. They did not care about the symbiotic benefits of the connection. The Army's AP Hill assistance allowed them to train with large groups for many possibilities with large group gatherings, and also practicing skills only really viable with large groups. Meanwhile the BSA paid considerable for much of the materials and so on, even though the nay sayers tried to suggest it was all given to them. Narrow mindedness and bias. Today, we no longer can interact well with military bases, and visits are so restrictive that they are like looking through a glass case. Our unit used to camp on base at Edwards next to the old rocket sled track, and we had tours, used the dining halls, the pool and so on. Air shows were special and huge. At Vandenburg, we saw dog traiining, looked into silos, and saw the then being constructed launch structures, as well as the site of the huge naval disaster along the coarst near there. While security is important, I cannot help but wonder how much is lost with this blindered approach to public interactions. Of course, many of us have heard the stories of veterans that note their Scouting training as helping them survive, even up to the modern day, but especially in WWII, Korea, and Nam. Joe Price told me that it was his assignment to find as many scout handbooks and manuals as possible for military training that got him into collecting. They used them for training of the troops, as they felt they were some of the best resources at the time. And, being a Skeptic, I find myself feeling that the idea that somehow the Government can be dragged into the lawsuit and bankruptcy, due to perceived deep pockets I fear, is just that; an effort to find more money at the expense of others, the tax payers. JMHO of course.

We need to face the larger elephant. BSA, and far too many other groups of similar nature are in constant fear of law suits over what fifty years or more ago would have been thrown out immediately. Same discussion that makes the lawsuit issues so difficult in the bankruptcy. Our legal system is really poorly designed today in that it will not simply ban foolishness that is obvious. JMHO of course.

Ever since the changes that pretty much make anyone that is First Class and has the other minimum requirements I have made it a point to talk to every likely candidate to determine IF he desired to even be in OA, and explain to him the expectation he needs to meet the intent of the honor. And, I have had a few scouts tell me that it really is not something they feel the need to do. Along with my own Spirit evaluation, tht has on occasion removed a few. Sadly, still too many still become "sash and dash". Part of that may be the lack of real intensity and meaning in the Ordeal ceremonies too much of the time. Too often it is obvious that little effort has been made to learn the ceremonial parts, and some candidates are really still too immature to fulfill the honor yet. It is sad that so much of the Order mystique is no longer in place. Still, it does serve a purpose, and at times they do a really fine job. It depends on theose in the leadership over time.

How Scout Like, at last.

A great opportunity perhaps to rekindle a small bit of the camp and perhaps the local lodge history.

Just noting this for those that continue to denigrate NESA. While it continues to need considerable reorganization and far better online options, it is still doing one of its primary options. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/07/21/nesa-bestows-more-than-500k-in-scholarships-to-eagle-scouts/

While the service element is the main strength, the honor of selection is also a factor, though much less imporstant with thw watered down process where there is generally no limit on admittance if the basic requirements are met. I have held one or two back due to scout spirit issues; that is my job as the leader. But today there is basiclally no real limitation on elegibility in respect to the SM evaluation and rank and camping minimums. As I have noted in the past, in my view, we have taken the strength of becoming a member away by removing the element of intregue. And few lodges do real Native American cultural things like regalia and dancing, partly due to the issue under discussion. What does remain could be far better presented by teams that do not have to have a crib sheet or simply an actual page with the ceremony details to read. JMO of course.

That is where the counselor steps in and suggests they choose a tribe from where they are from in the U.S. They almost all have a familial connect to the States in some manner.

Not sure about National, though most seem already gone, but our local council has cut staff by about 70 percent.

Scouting has a long tradition of borrowing symbolic things from others, often indiginous groups. Not just here in the U.S., but elsewhere too. Woodbadge beads are connected to the Zulu tribe of Africa and Dinizulu. " Early in the history of the Scout Movement, the founder, Robert Baden-Powell, ran the first residential adult leader training course for Scouters. At the completion of the course, the participants asked him if he could give them some token to indicate that they had been trained. He had not given this any thought, but on receiving the request he improvised by taking two little beads from a string of such beads he had; he threaded them on a bootlace, and hung them around the neck of each Scouter. Ever since, each Scouter who has successfully completed the advanced training course receives two similar beads on a leather thong. Known as the Wood Badge beads, they are proudly worn by Scouters to indicate that they are continuing in a tradition handed down from Baden-Powell. " In June 1888 Dinuzulu lead an attack against the Mandlakazi, who in 1883 had burnt down his father’s kraal at Ulundi, and defeated them at Nongoma. The British sent a force to capture Dinuzula lead by Robert Baden Powell, who in later years was to found the Boy Scouts movement. Although Baden Powell was unable to catch up with Dinuzulu he did manage to acquire his ‘iziQu’ - his long necklace of wooden beads. Writing about the campaign Baden Powell said.. So, it goes to the founder in this respect. In our area the primary tribe is Chumash, and our local O.A. lodge workes with them to honor their traditions. At times an elder from the tribe has attended O.A. ceremonies and blessed the gathering with valid Chumash lore. From what I have read over time, this is more the norm than what the crazies that talk about cultural assimilation claim. And, I am sure with a bit of digging we can find examples where local BSA groups have stopped some type of ceremony when actually approached by local tribe leaders. If you have read the actual history of the Koshare Indians. You will discover that from almost day one, there was a cultural review by the local tribes of what the dancers did, and also the ceremonial items and backdrops. That is the normal approach from those units and OA lodges that choose to study the local tribes, or even those that are more broadly recoginzed from old movies and stories. In that regard, I would like to see the Indian Lore merit badge modified to require some type of local cultural interchange as a requirement so as to assure the youth learn about their local tribes.

The volunteer "as employee" is I think the result of the legal system skewing the actual status and having the courts agree. It is, as pointed out, not reality. Are the coaches of youth sports and their helpers employees of the leagues? Are the volunteers at the Y or BGC and so on employees if they do not get paid? Lots of room for some actual common judgment on these things, and too often we let the slick tongues lawyer corrupt the real meaning and picture.

The idea of making HA bases into NP orgs actually seems to me a viable thought. As long as the focus is, well, focussed. Opening them up to more non-scout groups could likely lower the costs to Scouting groups who would get priority. And that also might include working out opening them to other World groups.

That is your opinion, though it is wrong. Good luck with dealing with your personal issues.

Sorry, but I think you are asking a truly misquided question. I am simply pointing out that trauma, either physical or mental, especially if repressed for decades for some reason, causes problems that can torment, especially if something happens to trigger it again. You surely can understand that without implying what you seem to be implying. There are NO traumas that do not leave some type of hidden scars mentally. And often they are put into our emotionally padded rooms to stay unless triggered. Many are worse than others, but they are all real and leave their own scars. And none of them should be trivialized because ours is "worse"; they all require us to find a way to adjust and with luck keep them locked down.

Our problem is that none of us see things exactly the same, and certainly do not intelectually and emotionally respond the same to various issues. And, it depends on the age of those experiencing a trauma. Very young emotional or physical trauma may be so buried that few ever really undrstand what that small discomfort or awful fear is that comes to them in dreams or with some trigger. Until if connected my brother's teasing me about his sunlamp being a wolf's red yee, I could not sleep without some light. Once I figured it out, it no longer was a problem. Similarly, I understand why electricity frightens me because my parents told me about my putting a bobbye pin in a wall socket when still in diapers, and the result. I can sort of laugh, since I survived, but that is still scary to me, and I find myself telling young parents to make sure they child proof things. Maybe why the title ofthe movie Fifty Shades of Gray is so powerful when you think about it.

Say it like it is. Greed has made this entire process into fiasco, with as noted just now again, only the lawyers actually winning anything. If not for the presssure to try to magnify the pot at the expense of currrent youth and really the expense of the verified survivors/victims, more has likely been lost than might have been availible with reasonable and balanced efforts by people not looking for a big payoff, but rather a fair and viable offer that recognizes the errors of the past and makes a legitimate monetary payment and also sets into motion additional safeguards to be added to the many BSA already had put in place. Agree or not, there is NO absolute monetary payment that will take away the emotional and physical damage done to the victims/surviors. As heinous as a few cases were, and as unsavory the lesser ones, it is almost just another slaop in the face of Survivors/victims to take drag this out at their expense, as well as the expense of the youth and the program that still roffer and receive benefit, and also return so much to our society. But, nothing much will change in relation to how this has gone off the rails, or how many others have similarly done, until we fix our out of waxk legal system and take the landslide profits out of the hands of the worst of the legal predators and scavengers. JMO, and as noted, a few will suggest I am not empathatic or worse. But I like my see/saw to actually go both ways.

Now please do not destroy the negative bubbles mrjohns2. So, as this thread continues, some resourceful or more determined are finding indicators from the awful files that support the idea that at the time of many of these occurences, there WAS pressure from parents and authorities to NOT publicize things. With enough digging, how many more "might" hint at these types of choices "at the time"? Those that continue to try to make sense of how people thought decades ago, or how they reacted, will not be able to do so with a perspective of today. I am pushing 80, and I know for a fact that these types of things were NOT dicussed clear up into the late sixties or later, and only in the last decade or two have really been brought into the light. Just like the use of some terms for Blacks, or for Gays, or for other nationalities. Up until the seventies it was still common to hear terms attached to people from Axis countries that today are considered unacceptible. Most of us as kids did not have a clue, just knew that those terms were used by many adults. As a kid in the fifties, I had no understanding of the Red Scare, other than adults said negative things about Russia and the Iron Curtain, as well as about Asian countries. It wasn't until I was around fifty that it dawned on me why a neighbor when I was about 10 or so told my parents I was singing a bad song. I had grown to favor a song by Dick Haymes; my parents had it on a 78 and I liked the tune and words and learned it. The elderly woman next door took offense. Haymes had been Black Listed, but I did not understand that and could not figure out why she thought the song was bad. Not the song, but the singer. I did not start to grasp the sea changes of the early to late sixties until I went to college in Riverside and actually went to school with blacks and intermixed with them. My dad was still calling them "colored", and he had worked with them for decades and he and my mother had Black friends in 29 Palms, as well as the San Gabriel Valley where we lived prior. They both attended Inglewood High in the thirties; and both were born in the midwest. Long winded I guess, but the point is that society changes on its own terms, or in a way forced by other winds of change. Just like we need to learn to adjust to climate change and its myriad tentacles of environmental challenge, we need to also learn to adjust to changes in societal norms, understanding we cannot change the norms of the past, just as we cannot change the effects of poor environmental practices of the past, like strip mining, or water blasting, or not keeping filth from mining and our cities out of the water. But, we CAN find ways to mitigate those things today now that we understand the dangers. Evolve, evolve, evolve, but try keep that evolution positive for today and the future, and not think we will change the past. Anyone over forty or fifty might with a little memory search find similar things from their past that today seem so wrong and out of place, and those of us from the early to middle twentieth century birth dates, have seen huge swings in public attitudes and of course political changes.

While I am not one to make too much noise about California foolishness, because much of it seems to make sense in regard to the environment and freedom in many areas of society. They surely do not have a lock on legislative stupidity for sure. But this one is already on the path to appeal. Our local area Ojai Valley Gun Club has temporarilty shut down their junior program due to concern they could be accused of advertising "shooting" to youth. The bill is aimed at advertising, but the club has a legal opinion that it is not clear, and the actual youth program could easily be misconstrued. Surely most on here see this overreaction as just more ignorance and CYA stuff. What posssibly could be wrong with encouraging firearm safety by teaching it? https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB2571

I spoke to our Minister again today, and he assured me that they want us there. We are in our 101st year, and they are proud of their affiliation with us. Three units, though only the troop is old. Had cubs off and on in the fifties, also a Sea Scout Patrol (not ship), Explorer posts, and a Venture Crew. The sticking point for me is the ownership thing. Ther rest is pretty much the same anyway. They need to fix the concern about the LC being able to just take our stuff because they "own it". The have the money separated it seems. As I noted somewhre, maybe here, it would seem there could be a cluse that gives the units use of all the equipment and to have that use exclusively in impertuity or something. It is not yet done I do not think. Lots of concerns and confusion.

You could make similar comparisons to many others of the day, and even today. In theory, the Y in its various states over more than a century would likely be held in similar esteem; Young Mens' Christian Association (and women's); or the various youth clubs that were common prior to organized youth sport, or any of the religiously connected groups, and of course the educational boards and schools with their members. All of them had/have some kind of "expectation" of higher moral values. Yet, all of them have examples of not meeting those expectations, and as noted in numerous past comments, many of them were far more likely to fall short based on what we know. The main point is that society, in theory, has these expectations, but often the wolf leers and lurks waiting for the shepherd or the guard dog to lose their focus and even their protective nature. BSA is really and always has been just another element of the larger society, and overall met that higher standard, though failing badly in some instances. Those failures, though few statistically in relation to the membership, should not have happened or should have had better responses. They have admitted these failures and also have over time made efforts to try to combat that societal weakness, often doing it with little support beyond themselves over the eras. It is still the truth that the failures lie at the feet of not just BSA, but many elements of society, including too often family and close associations other than BSA. And no amount of continued beating of the horse will change history.

Well, why are we in this mess now? The less than straight forward lawyers did exactly what they do when given a chance. The files were not witheld, just not open to the public. Of course, we also still need to consider the eras as well, espcicially the libel laws of the past. You will never find a perfect answer, and there is not doubt many mistakes and a great deal of poor judgement when seen in the light of the current society. You cannot separate the realities of trying to remake history. History should help avoid mistakes if viewed with logic and balance, but it cannot fix the past.

But, how much of this will see the broader media, if any? A story that encompasses what Scouting really teaches and is will likely not bring their attention beyond noting some scouts were on the train. But, we all should still be proud of the example.

Hopefully we will see adjustments to this. For example; as part of the agreement for facility use, the BSA, LC will make an impertuity loan of all such equipment to the unit, charging them say $1 or something like that. With a little imagination, the units can continue pretty much on course and not worry that the LC will suddenly step in and say we want all our equipment back to offer to another group, or whatever. Or, can't the equipment simply be owned still by the church and they "loan" it to the unit in perpetuity?

Trying to take a deep breath and see how it goes. Our church has assured us they want us there; in fact we have more space than before for storage and such. They have approved us turning the two main meeting rooms in the basement into partial museums, as we are in our 101st year. My understanding is that other churches with longevit also are hoping to keep that tenure in place. I need to check into it, but if we had to find a new CO, but kept the site, would the unit tenure transfer to the new CO? That is the biggest concern if we needed to find another sponsor. But, until we see how this works, and it will be a bit, just keep "doing our best".

I know we had issues once or twice with the county and maybe even the state. We had to replace the well after it collapsed due to the drought issues and age. Then it had all be recertified. We use a local portapotty system for camp sites and outlying activity areas, and we have a relatively new system at the pool with individual stalls and a connect system to septic tank. The other main part of camp has some challenges due to age, but is also septic connected but needs updating. The county keeps a very close eye on us; do not know if they do that to other camps in the area, but would hope so.