skeptic

Guys; isn't this horse dead enough for you? Obduracy is certainly in abundance with this group. Time to shut it down, IMHO.

Also, other than the immediate recipient of survice rendered, hardly anyone even notices scout service, as it does not deserve publication or airing in most news sources. For two years in a row now, I have taken the time to write and submit a synopsis of the past year's Eagle crop, and their total service; that includes the number of Eagles, number of hours (rounded), and a general listing of the various types of public and private entities to whom the service was rendered, such as 35 public schools, 38 churches, and so on. Other than it being posted on the paper website (which you can do yourself) it has not shown up in the paper. This event is attended by numerous county "names", recognizes an adult Eagle with a special award, and is held at a presidential library. Yet, not a word in the press. But, I noticed once again yesterday, a short piece on a teen south of us who committed a felony; the headline led with "Eagle Scout". What can you say?

Actually, Southern California already is in the Pacific (or on it)to the west of the San Andreas fault. The fault is the break point of the continental and Pacific plates. As such, the pressure northward and under to the east, acting in union, split off the section on the west and it is very slowly creeping northward. At some point, should the earth and U.S. survive that long,(yah, not likely), those of us west of the fault in the L.A. area will be saying hi to Berkley, while San Francisco will have moved to the vicinity of the Oregon, Washington border (you think Oregonians and Washintonians are upset now by the California interlopers; lol). So, there we have it. Of course, in that period of time, anything could change, including all of us becoming another Atlantis situation. Who knows.

By 11+ it is time for children to have begun to not need mommy and daddy constantly. A week at camp, without direct home contact, is generally a very positive point of growth in their self image and confidence. We should discourage as much of this as possible, in my opinion. Letters or simply cards should be enough, in most cases. If there really is a need, contact should be done with an adult present. Use of the pay phone in some camps actually requires an adult be with in order to encourage counseling of "little Johnny" prior to his crying on the phone. Of course, I am an old guy who was a latch-key kid in the 50's and responsible for family dinner prep by age 10, ready to serve (or close) by the time dad and mom got home in the (1)family car. Neighbors watched us, but unless we got really out of order, we did not hear much from them; and of course we played in the front and back yards on the two or three blocks in our area, as well as in the street. Still, somehow we survived and were far more self reliant at an early age than many kids today. Aside from a poor economy which makes it difficult to move out, way too many teens get out of high school with absolutely no ability to fend for themselves. Much of this can be directly attributed to the overly protective attitudes of many parents, and lack of home bred responsible behavior. JMHO

No electronics in camp; if caught with, they become mine until end of camp and return. They may use in the vehicles, but ask them not to be gadflys even then. Most barely use them, other than to play games. In camp they are encouraged to listen to nature and each other. At summer camp the past few years though, we have had a parent who brings his guitars, including a small amp; they are allowed to jam with him as time allows away from other responsibilities, usually in the evening. If scouts have other things to do, he simply does not get it out. Non-electric guitars are welcome on other outings, but seldom are taken due to size and weight. Drive-in is another story.

You know folks, a lot of you are making this out to be some kind of huge conspiracy, or simply playing the "fear" card. Reality is that this requirement, while perhaps not absolutely necessary, is highly unlikely to contribute to identity theft; and frankly, most of you have very likely given out more than enough information somewhere else should someone really want to make you a victim. If you have read some of the past nightmares within the BSA in regard to these issues, you know that there have been numerous individuals who were on record in one state and simply moved to another, sometimes more than once. If this procedure roots out even one individual hiding in the shadows, it has done its job. And, as someone already noted, every protective measure we can put in place serves to make the predators less likely to choose BSA as their harvesting locale. I, for one, will do whatever is necessary to reinforce the youth protection umbrella. If they want my fingerprints, they can have them. But, I also will continue to monitor credit reports and be vigilent for my own protection. If it happens, I am fairly confident it will have come from some other source than BSA.

Ah Merlyn; my "invisible friend" shows up regularly. You might recognize he/she in a sunset, or the power of a lightning bolt, or perhaps the smile of a tiny child. On the other hand, probably not, as you do not appear to see these types of things as anything beyond ourselves. It is sad to me that some people seem to have such arid souls. But, I believe that you will have one more chance at the time that you "cross the bar". Reality will be obvious; but you will still have "free will", and can choose to deny one last time. Good luck.

Interesting discussion re: West and GBB. While West was certainly a difficult person in many respects, he also accomplished a lot to put the early program on sound footing. All of the "founders" had their faults, but they appear to have had the goal of giving a viable and efficient program to the youth of the period. We can cast stones at Boyce for pretty much disappearing after the first few months, and perhaps not completing his promised financial support. Reports are that Beard could be surly and belligerant at times. Seton appears to have had ego issues. And of course, even B.P.'s direction was not universally followed or accepted; and there are many unknowns about him, as well as Olave. But, would we even still exist without all of their early efforts? Possibly we would have a better, certainly different group if some of the prominent people involved at the start who withdrew had stayed the course. We need to look back with respect, but also recognize the shortcomings and try to learn from their mistakes.

scoutingagain; Here in SC, those big crew cabs and similar vehicles seem to not be doing too much slowing down, if my occasional freeway jaunt is any indication. I have a new Fit, and I cruise at 65-70, depending on the flow. Meanwhile, I get passed constantly by SUV's and monster trucks. Guess they have really good fuel resources. Or, they are simply not aware of anything beyond their immediate gratification. Oh well, I can still barely fill up an empty tank on $40; lol, what else can you do?

Merlyn; Rights are only viable when they do not infringe on those of others. When they do, they are license. Neither form should be allowed if it cannot be done equibly. Again, the intent, to stop any form of bullying, is commendible; but since it has become predominently focussed on one specific group, and is spear-headed by non-student advocates, it is no longer something that should occur. By looking the other way and tacitly approving an activity, the school, a symbol of authority, becomes implicit in the activity. And, when some educators express their point of view during this event, they are over stepping their place, as this is a "public school". They do not have the right to directly or indirectly support certain PC points of view, since, as you have noted more than once, they are authority figures. My point is on the table; but I realize that you will evade it, or trivialize it, because only your perspective is important or viable. I will let you argue with someone else now. Have fun.

Simply allowing the groups to sponsor the event on campus is tacit approval of the intent. Allowing special assemblies requires school officials to approve the activity. The real point is not that encouraging less bullying and ill treatment of students for any reason isn't a good thing; but the methods and focus are not consistent with that. They specifically are focussed on a specific group of individuals; and non-school advocates are directly involved. Merlyn; it is interesting that you admit it appears some students rights were violated. Yet, you are still unwilling to admit it is directly related to the approval, direct, or indirectly, by school officials. The door swings both ways.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Well, here are a number of links related to this year's activity. While the supposed reason is to protest bullying in general, its focus is on the GSA and other related organizations' agendas. While they supposedly make it an optional activity on the schools, the fact that they are allowed to have assemblys and pass out literature is tacit approval by the schools involved. What is worse, at least in the cases shown below in Seatle and Sacramento, students and parents who protested were harassed and even punished; this is a violation of the their rights in favor of those of the "day of silence" participants. And, frankly, a large percentage of the students who are involved are simply using the event to avoid their studies and socialize. http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2291.html http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/eastsidenews/2004374870_dayofsilence26e.html http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/washington/news.aspx?id=87161 http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2236.html http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070426/27090_'Day_of_Silence'_Protesters_Defended_After_School_Suspensions.html(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Still waiting for a response regarding the "Day of Silence", in relation to this subject. Why was that okay, but a generic "moment" is not? Or, is it somehow okay, because it is PC?

Oh, there is far more detail in the Kahuna book. But, for basic info, F & B is really well done; and I am looking forward to the new issue. The best thing about it for me has been the ability to check things off within the book, especially in some of the odd-ball areas they cover. But, for detail, Joe's work is far superior. If you are anywhere near Ventura, Ca., I could let you review my copy. Good luck. YIS

You might want to contact the International Traders group noted below. A suspect some of them might know the family, or have a contact for them. Joe did not give them away when he was alive, and I know the family has tried hard to get maximum value out of his collections. So, you should be careful about copyright violations which, I would think, they inherited. http://www.scouttrader.org/contact_information.shtml Meanwhile, you could see if you can find a copy of the Fisk and Bearce reference, which by the way, is supposed to be reissued with updated material in 2009. They worked with Joe at times in their researching, and are a really good source. Good luck. Too bad Joe is not still here, as he was a wonderful scouter and very helpful. I had the privilege of visiting him a couple of times in his house. We even made some small trades.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Watch it Mark S. Our resident proto-atheist may quibble with you.

Take a deep breathe and try to be positive; it will get fixed, hopefully. Not any worse than me spending literally many hours updating my troop's adult training records, getting info' from leaders who actually had their cards/certificates, or connecting dots when they were in training with one who had their info'. Gave it all to council three separate years, and it never got corrected on the charter pages. Same went with ranks and ages on charters; was like, why bother. Currently, old Woodbadge records do not show up. While I did not take the new course officially, I was one of the first trainers, so had to basically take it, other than a ticket. Is there a record; and should those of us who instructed be credited with the new course? Also, if you took SM essentials, and so on back in the darker ages, none of those show up anywhere. So, if you do not have personal records, it is a guessing game. Wonder about the Philmont training; they actually issued certificates and even certifications for some college credit with some of those courses. With luck, these things will get better. Most positive progress is slow and erratic. Meanwhile, just do what you can do and take one more deeper breathe.

They actually claim unfair enrichment and exhorbitant rent request based on the history of the building and its maintenance for the first, and the fact that apparently no other building in the city business environment has that high of square foot rental charges. According to "scouts-L" National has already indicated support of the suite.

Yes, we should adapt and adopt, but only where it does not dilute or damage the basic premise of the program. Far too many people would rather we simply throw it all out. Thus, the old adage: "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water"

Okay; since the bill includes fees covering the actual cost of design, and minting to be passed on to the buyer, how is this an issue of government funds for BSA? The buyer should know that the surcharge is going to support the organization in some manner; if he does not want to pay it because of that support, then he does not buy it. Cost added on to cover expenses in the issue cover that complaint; and, if it is like most "expense coverages", it will be excessive, so may actually give the government a profit on the coin. So, then it is just one more case of let's not give any support to BSA, because they have some beliefs with which we disagree, and their huge contributions to society, especially when compared to similar groups, make no difference. Still, anyone even slightly familiar with members of Congress would have been able to tell ahead of time who would vote against. These people will never vote for anything that has BSA even remotely noted in a positive manner.

Just received the most recent ROLLING STONE at our house; have a spouse that has to keep up on the classic rock community. On front is a photo of Eagles with one wearing what seems to be a 40's vintage uniform shirt (has partly metal buttons and brown community strip) with a Life patch. Just wonder how that is going to be looked at by National. Could not have been the wearer's uniform, as is too old. Is it good or bad publicity to see the BSA represented indirectly with this type of photo? Just wonder what others might think. http://www.rollingstone.com/(This message has been edited by skeptic)

For me, even though I consider myself a Christian (certainly not at the acceptance level of the "conservatives"), every scientific break through simply reinforces the miraculous nature of the universe we share. God represents the ultimate power that encourages our ever evolving understanding, the spirit of universal life. Our greatest thinkers, be they scientists or philosiphers, somehow are able to draw more deeply from that power which is represented by human intelligence, and nurtured by the soul. On the other hand, there are the unexplainable miracles of autistic capabilities and other such mental anomolies. Is the apparent happiness in many of the afflicted due to poor intelligence, or greater understanding within their personal world? Neither religion or science can answer the final question; or is there even a "final" question Whether or not I am closer to right or wrong will eventually be known. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

Merlyn; Actually, theologians do agree on something. They believe that there is something beyond this life and that there is an infinite something (call it God, Gods, spirit, greater life level. whatever)that is greater than our understanding and ourselves. Also, at the core of most religions is honest concern for others (compare the basic premise of the "Golden Rule" found in most belief structures). Scientists believe the currently proven theories, but fairly quickly move on when another apparently greater theory appears to be valid, abandoning the earlier ideas as outdated, and sometimes even foolish. You may scoff at people with religious beliefs and faith; but it is interesting that a large percentage of the greatest scientific minds admitted having faith in something greater than themselves.

Wait, which of the awful G's are we discussing????

And so we come back to the circle of life, remembering that a circle has no ending or beginning in its pure form. Seems to me that some of our Native American brothers believed in this circular theory in a spiritual manner. Ultimately, most of us must simply have faith in something just being there; call it God, Mother Nature, Circle of Life, Universal Gasses, or whatever. Have never met or read of any mortal man who had an absolute answer. And, as John in K.C. notes; whatever reality exists beyond my currently finite mind (maybe later it will be infinite)I will discover "When I cross the bar".