skeptic

This type of conversation seems trite to me. IF the original shake, the one suggested by B.P. is not for you, that is your choice. And the possible story behind the choice by B.P., the one from meeting with an African chief is to be accepted, then it has a place. Ultimately, just like the saluting of Scoutmasters and other leaders that was common at one time, things go by the wayside or get altered to newer concepts or ways. Tradition has its place. Ultimately, we may want to keep the idea of the shake in view, whether or not we choose to use it. JMHO

It seems he has done it nightly over that time period. Not just winter, and not just in the snow. Not likely a challenge most could handle. A week or two for me was enough when I was younger, though I did sleep on our portch in the summer in the desert when a teen. Got to know the stars very well, and absorbed a lot of spiritual vibrations that still linger.

It will never satisfy everyone. Some cannot see the forest as they say. Others simply cannot get beyond their own fears or bias. We are all human, and we are also prone to errors in judgment and make dumb decisions at times. On the other hand, the majority mean well and most respond if challenged in a meaningful way with education on the program and its history. One of the biggest fallacies in the ongoing media attention is that somehow they either lose track of the fact all people involved are human, as far as we know anyway, and humanity has many very flawed and messed up people. The concept that somehow BSA or any other youth oriented groups will be perfect is simply ludicrous. Focus on the goals and find the best methods that work and stay on the intened course. Follow the safety rules and maybe allow adults to actually make logical decisions if they are "in charge". If something occurs that is not positive, then work within the system and clarify, find solutions, and in rare cases get authorities involved. STOP making every mistep a plot or blanket accusation that is painted with a very wide red or black brush.

I like the digital idea. Design the shirt to have an electronic sreen of some type on the needed place and they could be uploaded to scroll or something. Might even do that for youth ranks; push a button after approval and the rank displays on the pocket. Similarly, optional patches on the other side could be loaded and chosen to show in a rotation or somethng. How exciting would that be?

Most communities in So Cal seem to have a good idea of what tribes were present since the Spanish days and before. Much of the area bordering the Great Basin and the Colorado River were home to transiant tribes that moved with the seasons. In our area, the Chumash is the accepted principle tribe, and our lodge works with them to keep in touch with tribal concerns. They have often blessed some of our activities with special ceremonies. But there are records of a number of other tribes in and out, and trading inland to the ocean was common. Many tribes were very small, and after the Mission era, some were basically extinquished by the mining and cattle interests that moved into the areas. More recently, we have seen discoveries of small enclaaves of surviving tribes in the desert areas and along the coast. I suspect similar patterns may be known in much of the country, and from my studies in Native American history and anthropology of the same I am aware that much of the knowledge is only now starting to emerge, especially since so many tribes were small and mobile. We need to respect what we know, and make real efforts to not corrupt cultural places and history.

Mostly, as was the culture of the time. But there was interactions, and blacks were not banned from international events, nor not allowed. All of these challenges Evolve with the time and surrounding cultures.This predates apartheid of course, yet in 1979 at Philmont our crew met a crew from South Africa that had come due to the cancellation of the jamboree. A full crew of youth, all White except for their leader. Yet there did not appear to be any real problems with their interactions. Granted, we did spend much time with them. But, the fact that they came with that type of arrangement says a lot, or at least seems to.

Both, though surely you knew that already.

More trying to somehow rewrite history. The FACT that scouting was open to Aftricans when BP was still alive should be enough to negate this. But, we just have to find ways to make history read as we wish, rather than it is. Different time, different world and even local ideas and ways. Just like BP moved to respnd to the Girls that showed up in a group and told him they wanted to be Scouts too, and so they were there, he spent time and effort to find ways to mitigate much of the cultural and raceproblemsof the time. You cannot rewrite history nor hange the culture from the past to somehow look good today. It is simply ignoratnt to even suggest. JMHO of course, as I am really tired of this type of ignorance and would hope others might agree,. Base on today, there are huge differences in cultural awareness and responses. And many are tin ted with the wrrors or poor ideas of the past. Fix today, but leave the past in the past, as you CANNOT change it.

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Well, that is simply wrong. Just my view of course, but I would think they might use better judgment. And, the indirect effect on her daughter is shamedul.

Anyone that has watched adolescent youth in school group interaction recognizes that the girls will step back often if a strong boy asserts himself; but often when a girl takes over a group activity, the boys become more active, even though not taking charge. We need to simply let the youth determine things in each incidence, but two units with the same sponsor are just superfluous and a waste of financial resources as well as available leaders.

And there is considerable evidence that the best way is to simply allow coed, as does most of the rest of the Scouting world.

I would suggest that Nature replaced Bird Study in that slot of natural interaction with "nature". Today, that spot is taken by Environmental Science. I also feel that during the forties and into the early sixties, when the "choose from groups" requirement was in place, that the breadth of subjects for merit badges was better served, leaving option, but also achieving some variability.

Speaking of singing; I just rediscovered my 1913 Scout Song Book with very early scout songs and others. It is, as far as I can tell, the first one published. Many of the songs I have never heard, and until I find someone to read the notes, most I cannot sing. Also some interesting patriotic ones I have not seen.

While perhaps not on target for this thread, the comment above regarding "adults will not let scouts Not get Eagle", or something like that, is too often true. In our litigious society, any of us around a while may have seen the legal challenges from some parents when their youth does not pass something, usually for good reason. But society, at least ours, seems wont to make failure a non thing. Yet some the biggest lessons in life revolve around failure, and how we respond it. That lesson too often is no longer learned.

Hark back to the "Civics " badge. Basically the same idea.

This is a valid point, and I tend to agree. It is sad though that what should be accomplished simply by living the tenets and mentoring the youth as we should is found to need to be fed to them instead of them acting and learning on their own. Again, as noted, many of our adult members fall short on these basic ideas, thus I suppose the merit badge. I might suggest that perhaps the badge material could be a leader session at camp or offered in some manner at RT?

Probably have stated this before, but from my perspective, the CIS merit badge is covered, as this poster notes, by the foundational principals of Scouting. Someone's comment that it is not in the purview of many in the program, including adults, is unfortunately true, but that is because the emphasic on the true nature of Scout Spirit, doing our best as individuals, youth and adults, is no longer a main focus. It should be seriously discussed at conferences when Scout Spirit is reviewed. Ultimately, the perspective of how well the youth, or even an adult, is doing in living to the best of their ability to the major premises is theirs. And that is why it SHOULD be not just a passing note in the conferences, and even periodic meeting points, like closing or openings. We close with the traditional SM Benediction, and we often have short discussions on how well they think they are doing in "living" Scout Spirit. Had a tenderfoot scout clearly explain why "doing his best" was on him first, and only he could make a valid judgment as to that. We as leaders, or hopefully mentors, MUST set the examples, then highlight those tenets consistently, recognizing at times great observed examples in our mentees. JMO of course as an old guy who entered Scouting in its peak and when society did not make fun of basic descency and manners.

This dalliance with trying to make this into a short story or something is troublesome.

Sadly, so far his response has been simply thrown him to the side of the road, more or less. Not what I would think we might expect, especially with the history prior and his acchievements. The unit will likely discuss seriously some more and hopefully find a workable option that protects others, but does not abandon the lad. Thanks for the comments.

An issue totally unespected and out of the blue. Been in the program since cubs, and other than occasional breaking of something in frustration, never threatening to others. Something went awry it would seem and his doctors are involved. It just seems that if we can work with him in some way that does not put others in harms way, or he is proven to be tempered, would Lone Scout be an option. A lot of "ifs", and not something likely in the books directly. On the other hand, we have a history of reaching out to troubled youth and giving them a chance if possible. It just seems a shame to see his efforts to date to be lost. But, we have to put the others ahead; that is understood. Thanks for your comments. Probably one of those untenable situations.

Can a scout on the extended program for challenge individuals continue in some format such as Lone Scout when his meds and emotional issues can be of concern, or even frightening? It seems unfair and counterprocuctive to simply separate them if they start to have unforeseen issues as they age. Thoughts, please.

And I ahve never denied that the abuse should not have happened, if possible, and that some foolish or something people made major poor decisions in regard to the known or reported cases. We also need to recognize the other parties making poor decisions, or in some cases what they viewed as protective decisions. Bsa was and is not the only one, and suggesting they are is simply foolish. One case is too many. We need to continue to strengthen barriers, but also NOT simply write off the huge benefits of Scouting. It is a bit ironic that West was chosen partly due to his efforts for improving youth fafety in society.

The saddest part of this continuing issue is that if we simply fixed the legal system so as to not have overly zealous and greedy saw suits people could still have protection with reasonable cost and some type of fair and balanced guidelines. The expectation that there is an absolute ability to keep all bad actors out of Scouting or any other group is not feasible. And, when those individuals do get past barriers, for whatever reason, the idea that anyone that has ever spoken to or touched them, or furnished a place to meet, and so on is ridiculous and should not be a reason to sue. Just my view, and if you do not agree, please do not get rude.

Well, this time, they are telling the truth. They have sat on the cost for a while now, and reality has stepped up. Have to review, but is there still a first time option with the Eagle return from National? For others, it has been a low cost option; and of course, I am unaffected, as I purchased the Life years ago. Those of us that have gifted new Eagles membership will need to decide if it is worth the expense. I certainly will consider that the next time it arises.