skeptic

Interesting discussion re: West and GBB. While West was certainly a difficult person in many respects, he also accomplished a lot to put the early program on sound footing. All of the "founders" had their faults, but they appear to have had the goal of giving a viable and efficient program to the youth of the period. We can cast stones at Boyce for pretty much disappearing after the first few months, and perhaps not completing his promised financial support. Reports are that Beard could be surly and belligerant at times. Seton appears to have had ego issues. And of course, even B.P.'s direction was not universally followed or accepted; and there are many unknowns about him, as well as Olave. But, would we even still exist without all of their early efforts? Possibly we would have a better, certainly different group if some of the prominent people involved at the start who withdrew had stayed the course. We need to look back with respect, but also recognize the shortcomings and try to learn from their mistakes.

scoutingagain; Here in SC, those big crew cabs and similar vehicles seem to not be doing too much slowing down, if my occasional freeway jaunt is any indication. I have a new Fit, and I cruise at 65-70, depending on the flow. Meanwhile, I get passed constantly by SUV's and monster trucks. Guess they have really good fuel resources. Or, they are simply not aware of anything beyond their immediate gratification. Oh well, I can still barely fill up an empty tank on $40; lol, what else can you do?

Merlyn; Rights are only viable when they do not infringe on those of others. When they do, they are license. Neither form should be allowed if it cannot be done equibly. Again, the intent, to stop any form of bullying, is commendible; but since it has become predominently focussed on one specific group, and is spear-headed by non-student advocates, it is no longer something that should occur. By looking the other way and tacitly approving an activity, the school, a symbol of authority, becomes implicit in the activity. And, when some educators express their point of view during this event, they are over stepping their place, as this is a "public school". They do not have the right to directly or indirectly support certain PC points of view, since, as you have noted more than once, they are authority figures. My point is on the table; but I realize that you will evade it, or trivialize it, because only your perspective is important or viable. I will let you argue with someone else now. Have fun.

Simply allowing the groups to sponsor the event on campus is tacit approval of the intent. Allowing special assemblies requires school officials to approve the activity. The real point is not that encouraging less bullying and ill treatment of students for any reason isn't a good thing; but the methods and focus are not consistent with that. They specifically are focussed on a specific group of individuals; and non-school advocates are directly involved. Merlyn; it is interesting that you admit it appears some students rights were violated. Yet, you are still unwilling to admit it is directly related to the approval, direct, or indirectly, by school officials. The door swings both ways.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Well, here are a number of links related to this year's activity. While the supposed reason is to protest bullying in general, its focus is on the GSA and other related organizations' agendas. While they supposedly make it an optional activity on the schools, the fact that they are allowed to have assemblys and pass out literature is tacit approval by the schools involved. What is worse, at least in the cases shown below in Seatle and Sacramento, students and parents who protested were harassed and even punished; this is a violation of the their rights in favor of those of the "day of silence" participants. And, frankly, a large percentage of the students who are involved are simply using the event to avoid their studies and socialize. http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2291.html http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/eastsidenews/2004374870_dayofsilence26e.html http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/washington/news.aspx?id=87161 http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2236.html http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070426/27090_'Day_of_Silence'_Protesters_Defended_After_School_Suspensions.html(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Still waiting for a response regarding the "Day of Silence", in relation to this subject. Why was that okay, but a generic "moment" is not? Or, is it somehow okay, because it is PC?

Oh, there is far more detail in the Kahuna book. But, for basic info, F & B is really well done; and I am looking forward to the new issue. The best thing about it for me has been the ability to check things off within the book, especially in some of the odd-ball areas they cover. But, for detail, Joe's work is far superior. If you are anywhere near Ventura, Ca., I could let you review my copy. Good luck. YIS

You might want to contact the International Traders group noted below. A suspect some of them might know the family, or have a contact for them. Joe did not give them away when he was alive, and I know the family has tried hard to get maximum value out of his collections. So, you should be careful about copyright violations which, I would think, they inherited. http://www.scouttrader.org/contact_information.shtml Meanwhile, you could see if you can find a copy of the Fisk and Bearce reference, which by the way, is supposed to be reissued with updated material in 2009. They worked with Joe at times in their researching, and are a really good source. Good luck. Too bad Joe is not still here, as he was a wonderful scouter and very helpful. I had the privilege of visiting him a couple of times in his house. We even made some small trades.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Watch it Mark S. Our resident proto-atheist may quibble with you.

Take a deep breathe and try to be positive; it will get fixed, hopefully. Not any worse than me spending literally many hours updating my troop's adult training records, getting info' from leaders who actually had their cards/certificates, or connecting dots when they were in training with one who had their info'. Gave it all to council three separate years, and it never got corrected on the charter pages. Same went with ranks and ages on charters; was like, why bother. Currently, old Woodbadge records do not show up. While I did not take the new course officially, I was one of the first trainers, so had to basically take it, other than a ticket. Is there a record; and should those of us who instructed be credited with the new course? Also, if you took SM essentials, and so on back in the darker ages, none of those show up anywhere. So, if you do not have personal records, it is a guessing game. Wonder about the Philmont training; they actually issued certificates and even certifications for some college credit with some of those courses. With luck, these things will get better. Most positive progress is slow and erratic. Meanwhile, just do what you can do and take one more deeper breathe.

They actually claim unfair enrichment and exhorbitant rent request based on the history of the building and its maintenance for the first, and the fact that apparently no other building in the city business environment has that high of square foot rental charges. According to "scouts-L" National has already indicated support of the suite.

Yes, we should adapt and adopt, but only where it does not dilute or damage the basic premise of the program. Far too many people would rather we simply throw it all out. Thus, the old adage: "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water"

Okay; since the bill includes fees covering the actual cost of design, and minting to be passed on to the buyer, how is this an issue of government funds for BSA? The buyer should know that the surcharge is going to support the organization in some manner; if he does not want to pay it because of that support, then he does not buy it. Cost added on to cover expenses in the issue cover that complaint; and, if it is like most "expense coverages", it will be excessive, so may actually give the government a profit on the coin. So, then it is just one more case of let's not give any support to BSA, because they have some beliefs with which we disagree, and their huge contributions to society, especially when compared to similar groups, make no difference. Still, anyone even slightly familiar with members of Congress would have been able to tell ahead of time who would vote against. These people will never vote for anything that has BSA even remotely noted in a positive manner.

Just received the most recent ROLLING STONE at our house; have a spouse that has to keep up on the classic rock community. On front is a photo of Eagles with one wearing what seems to be a 40's vintage uniform shirt (has partly metal buttons and brown community strip) with a Life patch. Just wonder how that is going to be looked at by National. Could not have been the wearer's uniform, as is too old. Is it good or bad publicity to see the BSA represented indirectly with this type of photo? Just wonder what others might think. http://www.rollingstone.com/(This message has been edited by skeptic)

For me, even though I consider myself a Christian (certainly not at the acceptance level of the "conservatives"), every scientific break through simply reinforces the miraculous nature of the universe we share. God represents the ultimate power that encourages our ever evolving understanding, the spirit of universal life. Our greatest thinkers, be they scientists or philosiphers, somehow are able to draw more deeply from that power which is represented by human intelligence, and nurtured by the soul. On the other hand, there are the unexplainable miracles of autistic capabilities and other such mental anomolies. Is the apparent happiness in many of the afflicted due to poor intelligence, or greater understanding within their personal world? Neither religion or science can answer the final question; or is there even a "final" question Whether or not I am closer to right or wrong will eventually be known. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

Merlyn; Actually, theologians do agree on something. They believe that there is something beyond this life and that there is an infinite something (call it God, Gods, spirit, greater life level. whatever)that is greater than our understanding and ourselves. Also, at the core of most religions is honest concern for others (compare the basic premise of the "Golden Rule" found in most belief structures). Scientists believe the currently proven theories, but fairly quickly move on when another apparently greater theory appears to be valid, abandoning the earlier ideas as outdated, and sometimes even foolish. You may scoff at people with religious beliefs and faith; but it is interesting that a large percentage of the greatest scientific minds admitted having faith in something greater than themselves.

Wait, which of the awful G's are we discussing????

And so we come back to the circle of life, remembering that a circle has no ending or beginning in its pure form. Seems to me that some of our Native American brothers believed in this circular theory in a spiritual manner. Ultimately, most of us must simply have faith in something just being there; call it God, Mother Nature, Circle of Life, Universal Gasses, or whatever. Have never met or read of any mortal man who had an absolute answer. And, as John in K.C. notes; whatever reality exists beyond my currently finite mind (maybe later it will be infinite)I will discover "When I cross the bar".

Interesting that this has generated so many postings, yet when I posted about it on April 4th, there were absolutely no responses. Guess it must have something to do with whom it is that posts as to whether any attention is paid. There have also been no responses to another post of mine in the politics threads when I asked for comparisons to periods of silence in school for personal reflection to the "Day of Silence" offered in many schools in honor of the tragic death of an apparently Gay boy. Have had little or no response to a number of other posts as well over the past few months. Not sure how to take that, other than to assume that for some reason my postings are simply either ignored or possibly blocked by the basic clique on the board. Now, there is a subject for discussion. Is this board dominated by a clique of posters?(This message has been edited by skeptic)

We are now in the 3rd or 4th year of "going back", and it is really trying. We went from 5 districts to two big ones with directors. We had one roundtable on our side of the hill for 7 communities and outlying areas. About half the "old timers" who were key to the efficency of the districts stepped down or were forced out. Eight years later, a new SE and reversion to the smaller districts with an ASE and DE's. Now, we have far fewer local volunteers, and the smaller districts are suffering from lack of enough man power. Meanwhile, due to the high cost of living in our area with no external help, we cannot staff the exec needs and so the ones in place are overwhelmed with too much to do, and too many miles to drive to do their jobs well. Add to that, the financial struggles of being in Southern California and the politically correct detractors. Not much fun sometimes. But, we have finally re-opened a long dormant camp within the actual suburban confines that had been closed due to access problems with neighboring properties. And, we had a great COR there for the first time in about 15 years. So, guess we just keep working at getting it right and hope that somehow some things will come around. It would help alot if National would realize that high cost of living areas need some type of additional incentives, such as housing allowances, or actual ownership of living space that could be rented or allotted as part of the employment package, to obtain and retain beginning exectutives, and even the middle level.

Quantity and respect do not necessarily go hand in hand. Way back in 1960, as we prepared for Jamboree, we had three adult leaders (only 3 then). Two were old time Eagles with multiple palms; one had over 60, and the other close to 80. The 3rd adult had never gone beyond tenderfoot. Which one was the favorite of the youth in the troop? You probably surmise correctly, it was the one with no merit badges, but who spent his time involved with the boys, not arguing as to whom was the bigger scouting success. Lots of quotes in the anthologies that relate to pride and its possible consequences. Nough.

So, how does the recent "Day of Silence" fit in with this discussion/argument? It was the declaration and tacit approval in many schools that no one should talk last Friday to honor the boy apparently killed, at least in part, due to his sexual preference. Is this "silence" an infringement on the rights of those who believe certain choices should not be publicly acceptable? Is it okay to have a "day of silence" to recognize the "rights" of a small segment of society, but not allow similar allowance for the rights of larger segments of society? Inquiring minds want to know!

While the misplacement of said patch still annoys me, I gave up being uniform police outside my unit. Years ago I jokingly challenged a Star Scout as to what number OA lodge was the tote-n-chip lodge. That evening at dinner and flags, his leader ripped me a new one, basically telling me I had no place to suggest the patch was worn erroneously. I tried to mollify him, but he was so indignent that he was turning red. After that, I just generally take a deep breath and wonder why so simple a thing as reading a guide for placement can me so hard, and why people think that, even if they have read the proper way, that they can change it for them own desires.

Okay guys, no one said they were offended, just curious as to how this related to this particular board. Obviously, though this is the kind of thing passed around that we often just delete, it has lightened people's days. So it serves a purpose in that regard. And, there definitely is no reason to apologize for that. I will now go and read all the other "stuff" I normally would simply get rid of; never know, it may brighten my day too.

moxieman; I am with you on that about similar awards in different program areas. It has always confused me that I have a commissioner device and scouter device for a training award, worn on one knot, but the identical award for cubbing, and I believe venturing, have their own knots. Why not simply wear a cub device, or venture device? That would apply at least to the "key" and "training" awards throughout the program. Not sure where else it might apply. Those of us that have been around a long time often struggle with what is too much I think. Years ago, I rode some of my senior scous about wearing what they had earned, and properly. They came back to me and wanted to know why I did not wear medals at formal events. So, for the next few years, I made it a point to do so; but frankly, the medals are a nuisance. Today, I simply wear the knots as earned on my formal shirt, along with a jambo patch and Philmont arrowhead. Do still wear Eagle medal at Eagle courts, and religious awards on Scout Sunday.