skeptic

Date of rank is date of completed BOR. No awards may be issued or worn until the "official" National certificate and related paperwork is received. HOW MUCH CLEARER DO WE NEED TO BE?

Years ago, I went through a period where I considered not wearing knots, as when I was able to wear more than a row, it kind of embarrassed me for some reason. But, my own scouts told me that if I expected them to wear their insignia as earned, and wear it properly and proudly, then I should do the same. They even convinced me once to wear all the medals at COH, just because it was "formal". I only did that once, as they clank and get caught on things. Still do wear the Eagle and God & Country on occasion, as well as the Beaver at the annual meeting. We all know people who have tried to earn or obtain as many knots as possible; and they mostly are pretty good scouters, but seem enamored of the knots. As has been pointed out, they do not hurt us, other than occasionally our feelings; especially the rare ones that started this part of the thread. Do what you feel comfortable with, and don't let pettiness blind you. MHO

"The US military agreed back in 2004 to stop chartering BSA units in response to an ACLU lawsuit" Another one of "your" prouder accomplishments I suspect.

When it became painfully obvious that there were a few truly obese boys becoming Eagle, the personal fitness merit badge was reinstalled in the Eagle requirements. This was surely directly aimed at that element of final advancement. Since then, few scouts become Eagle who do not a least meet a minimum standard of fitness; even though some might do the badge early in their scouting, and then become less fit. So, then we come back to the idea that a more specific requirement would be put in place for showing duty to God and reverence. But one can be fairly clearly measured, while the other is very subjective, and ambiguous at best. No easy answer. But taking taking it out is not it, as it is part of the backbone of the program. As the scouts progress, make sure that this element is being addressed, and they understand that eventually they will need to address the best they can.

Merlyn: "chain", (pull it, repeat ad infinitum). Sort of like the silly scout skit of the arcade quick draw game.

Merlyn: Of course you are correct; but you see, that "awful majority" sometimes hopes that rational responses will actually occur, rather than selfish ones. Please do not wear yourself out regurgitating your never changing "facts" and so on. We all know how you feel.

Or, maybe the people in the school simply hoped the PC stuff would not be an issue, and the 99% positive element of the program could happen. They, perhaps weighed the positives and negative(s, then felt the positives "far" out weighed the negatives; and a large group of parents wanted it. Oh, I am sorry, we need to ignore that group, as they just want what they see as "best" for "their" kids.

In yesterday's paper there was an interesting article about Jefferson and his "view of God". As has been noted, he was a "Deist", and as such very skeptical about many elements of religion. Still he believed that Jesus was real, and that his very basic tenets were worthwhile. Early in the 19th century, Jefferson basically cut and pasted what he considered to be the most relevant parts of the New Testament and Christ's teachings. He called this "wee little book" The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazereth. In a letter sent to John Adams from Monticello in 1813 he calls this 46 page book "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man". Jefferson is finally quoted as saying; "Say nothing of my religion. It is known to myself and my God alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life; if that has been honest and dutiful to society, the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one". On-line reference for the bible is "

For some posters, everything is either black or white. No nuance or room for wiggle allowed. And, if it was stated once, even if since has been motified or clarified in some manner, it matters not. The statement was made; so it is fact and cannot be questioned except in a negative way. No sense in arguing with a wall.

You know, I often have wondered if we took the time to design, then spent the money wasted on "disaster after-the-fact" on its completion, why they could not build canals or underground spillways away from the large rivers that would take the water to areas that could use it. If we can bring water from Northern to Southern California via an aquaduct, why not from Missouri to say Georgia, with stops along the way to replenish aquafirs? Probably all kinds of challenges, but just seems that we have so much water going where we don't want it, but there are areas that could use it. But, I am not an engineer. But, you would think that the cost eventually would be outweighed by the benefits.

http://view.email.scoutstuff.org/?j=fe5c1576776102747411&m=fef616777c6304&ls=fdf811717d67057a70167577&SRC=ET&ET_CID=history070108&Page=View+as+a+Web+Page&ET_RID={c8e9df99-0c98-4560-a937-2abcf2a91529} Personally, while this looks like possibly a great item; it is truly way over the top. I am afraid it supports some of the critics who feel National has lost sight of some of the basic foundations of our movement. Even with the items indicated, this is a rip off, in my opinion. I am truly disappointed, and have sent a message to them indicating such. Not that it will likely get any response or consideration. On top of the overpriced Eagle book, this is very sad.

deleted, due to messed up html and appearance. Will try again without link and html.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Oh come on Mr. Boyce; that would be using "common sense". Have you forgotten that it is no longer in vogue?

Frankly, based on the info given, the young man's project was more than required, and overall very successful. It is truly a shame that public officials, more often than known, have power trips at the expense of well meaning or even diligent efforts of volunteers and community groups. In our own area, I have seen projects demeaned and destroyed by "authorities", after approvals and glowing reports initially. The excuse often is that they were not safe; yet, rather than take what appeared to be minor remediation to fix the safety issues, they simply destroyed them. It would not surprise me to find that this is more common than we would like to think.

Tried to intur a "dead horse" cartoon; won't work. Sorry.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Yep, the Ordeal process is a rubber stamp pretty much. Because there were occasional instances of "black-balling" in earlier days, and a few candidates felt they were treated unfairly over the years, the rules were changed. Now, there is very little, if any accountability if the Ordeal vows are broken. Just one more instance of taking the glow off the campfire and over doing the challenge to keep it fair, but meaningful. Still, most candidates seem to try to uphold the honor of the moment; and a few seem to actually "get" it. Work with what we have, and hope we can push forward.

With the newest election (?) procedure, an "eligilbe" scout has to "really be unpopular" to still not be chosen. But, the SM also has the ability to not allow the bully or other unqualified scout to stand for the election (?). There still is a "Scout Spirit" element, and that is up to the leader to determine. So, we come back to the continuing question. Why, if the leader is doing his job, do we have candidates for ranks or honors who everyone thinks do not have "Scout Spirit", do not set the example expected? Scoutmasters need to take their job and its sometimes difficult decisions seriously. Sometimes, that hard decision to not allow a scout to advance at "this time", or to be on the O.A. election list, may be the wake up call necessary. Scouts need to understand that just going through the motions when someone is looking, and doing the minimum paper requirement does not guarantee their being "honored". That is not how the "real world" works.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Reminds me of an episode years ago at the San Diego Zoo during a spring break outing. I dropped kids off with another leader, then went my own way, as had been there too many times. That afternoon, when I returned to pick them up, I am greeted with two boys telling me "scouts ?/?" are in security, and you need to go there. Seems they thought it would be cool to spit out of the "skyway" cable car. Was anyone hurt? No. Was it wrong? Yes. Did we all learn something? Hopefully. But, just the looks on their faces when I sprang them was enough, along with the constant razzing by the others. We did have a short discussion aside from the others, and they made a public apology to the rest of the group; but that was all I felt necessary.

Guys; isn't this horse dead enough for you? Obduracy is certainly in abundance with this group. Time to shut it down, IMHO.

Also, other than the immediate recipient of survice rendered, hardly anyone even notices scout service, as it does not deserve publication or airing in most news sources. For two years in a row now, I have taken the time to write and submit a synopsis of the past year's Eagle crop, and their total service; that includes the number of Eagles, number of hours (rounded), and a general listing of the various types of public and private entities to whom the service was rendered, such as 35 public schools, 38 churches, and so on. Other than it being posted on the paper website (which you can do yourself) it has not shown up in the paper. This event is attended by numerous county "names", recognizes an adult Eagle with a special award, and is held at a presidential library. Yet, not a word in the press. But, I noticed once again yesterday, a short piece on a teen south of us who committed a felony; the headline led with "Eagle Scout". What can you say?

Actually, Southern California already is in the Pacific (or on it)to the west of the San Andreas fault. The fault is the break point of the continental and Pacific plates. As such, the pressure northward and under to the east, acting in union, split off the section on the west and it is very slowly creeping northward. At some point, should the earth and U.S. survive that long,(yah, not likely), those of us west of the fault in the L.A. area will be saying hi to Berkley, while San Francisco will have moved to the vicinity of the Oregon, Washington border (you think Oregonians and Washintonians are upset now by the California interlopers; lol). So, there we have it. Of course, in that period of time, anything could change, including all of us becoming another Atlantis situation. Who knows.

By 11+ it is time for children to have begun to not need mommy and daddy constantly. A week at camp, without direct home contact, is generally a very positive point of growth in their self image and confidence. We should discourage as much of this as possible, in my opinion. Letters or simply cards should be enough, in most cases. If there really is a need, contact should be done with an adult present. Use of the pay phone in some camps actually requires an adult be with in order to encourage counseling of "little Johnny" prior to his crying on the phone. Of course, I am an old guy who was a latch-key kid in the 50's and responsible for family dinner prep by age 10, ready to serve (or close) by the time dad and mom got home in the (1)family car. Neighbors watched us, but unless we got really out of order, we did not hear much from them; and of course we played in the front and back yards on the two or three blocks in our area, as well as in the street. Still, somehow we survived and were far more self reliant at an early age than many kids today. Aside from a poor economy which makes it difficult to move out, way too many teens get out of high school with absolutely no ability to fend for themselves. Much of this can be directly attributed to the overly protective attitudes of many parents, and lack of home bred responsible behavior. JMHO

No electronics in camp; if caught with, they become mine until end of camp and return. They may use in the vehicles, but ask them not to be gadflys even then. Most barely use them, other than to play games. In camp they are encouraged to listen to nature and each other. At summer camp the past few years though, we have had a parent who brings his guitars, including a small amp; they are allowed to jam with him as time allows away from other responsibilities, usually in the evening. If scouts have other things to do, he simply does not get it out. Non-electric guitars are welcome on other outings, but seldom are taken due to size and weight. Drive-in is another story.

You know folks, a lot of you are making this out to be some kind of huge conspiracy, or simply playing the "fear" card. Reality is that this requirement, while perhaps not absolutely necessary, is highly unlikely to contribute to identity theft; and frankly, most of you have very likely given out more than enough information somewhere else should someone really want to make you a victim. If you have read some of the past nightmares within the BSA in regard to these issues, you know that there have been numerous individuals who were on record in one state and simply moved to another, sometimes more than once. If this procedure roots out even one individual hiding in the shadows, it has done its job. And, as someone already noted, every protective measure we can put in place serves to make the predators less likely to choose BSA as their harvesting locale. I, for one, will do whatever is necessary to reinforce the youth protection umbrella. If they want my fingerprints, they can have them. But, I also will continue to monitor credit reports and be vigilent for my own protection. If it happens, I am fairly confident it will have come from some other source than BSA.

Ah Merlyn; my "invisible friend" shows up regularly. You might recognize he/she in a sunset, or the power of a lightning bolt, or perhaps the smile of a tiny child. On the other hand, probably not, as you do not appear to see these types of things as anything beyond ourselves. It is sad to me that some people seem to have such arid souls. But, I believe that you will have one more chance at the time that you "cross the bar". Reality will be obvious; but you will still have "free will", and can choose to deny one last time. Good luck.