skeptic

Sorry, but the idea that people without kids is "creepy" is lame IMO. When people no longer have kids in the program do they suddenly lose their abilities to contribute constructive service? Are we to simply deny skills offered by experienced scouters, or scouts who either have had their kids leave home as adults, or were not blessed with kids for some reason? Just think of it; if Lemuel and his wife had not adopted Whitey, they would not have been able to be leaders. Then where would we be? What would Scouting be without FOLLOW ME BOYS?

Lem, the reason for asking was simply to get a better perspective as to where you may be getting your personal thoughts. If you are not directly involved, as was just noted, then your ideas are not necessarily based on practical use within the actual program. There is nothing wrong with outside comments and observations; but too often they are based on incorrect assumptions or bias from outside the program. I think you might find some of your ideas have already been tried. Others perhaps will be. When someone does, and reports back on their levels of success, it should be useful. Thank you for clarifying your position. And certainly continue to participate. Just try to keep an open mind, and please try to comment on what works from your perspective as well.

Lem; still waiting for clarification as to what your involvement is. If you are actually in the program, you know that you can suggest these things to your group and see if they will run with it. Then, maybe it can be reported on. If part, or even all, works, then perhaps it could be expanded to other groups. But, every troop is different, and direct competition is not the primary focus in scouting. In our troop, there is statement visible above the board; "Live the 12". That is the focus. Finding ways to hopefully instill that into their lives, not only now, but into the future.

So Lem, how are you involved in helping possibly solve these problems you say are so prominent? Going back and looking at your posts, you indicate you were a scout in the 80's, but now you don't get them. Sounds to me you are not really involved, only want to stir the pot somehow. Perhaps I am wrong; but it surely looks that way to me. Yes, leaders can be more fit; but that is not the only criterion, as has been noted already. And, in many troops, the older leaders have stepped back to be more counselors and turned the physical elements over to younger, more capable men. We need both types in the program. Over the years, I have had a few instances where so called fit individuals, both adults and youth, have come on backpacks with us and not able to "hack it", even though they would look down at scouts as being weak and lame. I would wager that a large percentage of sports oriented individuals could not make it on a fifty miler, or possibly even a five miler. And once there, they would not be able to fend for themselves as well as most of the first year scouts. Quit trying to compare non-similar programs. And open your eyes to the realities that most people are not regular "winners". Failure or average is far more real. Scouts say, "On my honor, I will do my best". That is where we should be putting our emphasis. And yes, we can do better, which we all recognize.

http://derbytalk.com http://grandprix-race-central.com/ Perhaps these may be of help or interest here.

Because he is a Lawyer and has fantasies of taking down the BSA.

But feedback is!!

Couple observations and thoughts here. First of all, in the 30+ years as a leader I have had 25 Eagles, so I guess we are not a mill. I have set on fifty or more boards for other troops in our district. While we certainly have had the geeks and nerds, many are athletes as well; often the reason they are coming in under the wire age wise. In my troop, one Eagle was the president of the hs student body, captain of the water polo team, president of a service club on campus, and still finished his Eagle under the wire. Then went on to graduate with honors from NASU where he went on a full academic scholarship. Another Eagle who left my troop before earning it, but finished with some buds in the city, was an all star varsity football player and now earning superior grades in college. One in five Eagles from our area are in sports, and half are in the top tier; yet they stay in the program as best they can. If there are bad vibes regarding the program, most of them come from the idiots who seem to feel the necessity to run anything of worth down. Why, because they either were not given the opportunity, or because they learned it from their own parents. Remember, we are now pretty much into the 3rd generation after Dr. Spock and his ilk; and the results are showing in all areas of our society. Too many parents seem to think that scouting should not follow the rules, and cause difficulty in many troops. Their kid is special, and he needs extra help or to have rules altered. Baloney! He needs to learn things and rise to the challenge. If the unit caters to these people, yes it will be weak and not set the example. But, at least in our area, troops tend to have pretty good outdoor programs. And, reality is, that is still what holds the kids. Yes, over-weight and out of shape leaders can be a hindrance. I am struggling right now to find younger, better fit adults to take the outdoor program on. I cannot any longer do what I once could; partly due to weight, and partly simply older age maladies that come to haunt you from younger age injuries. We can always do better; but the program is still viable and has its place. With effort and work, it may even start to win back a few supporters. But, with all the other distractions of today, it will not likely ever have the same success as it did when it was one of the only activities available. One more thing; yes, Eagle still means something. But, we need to try to make sure that we keep it meaningful. Example. Last year in our council there were 203 Eagles; their service hours for projects came to over 26,000 hours. Most benefactors were schools, community parks, churches, and government outdoor related entities. Where would the communities be without these efforts? We just need to make it clearer to them that scouting still serves the community at large. Quit finding excuses and simply do what ever you can to keep it going and "Do Your Best".

Wow; no wonder we have trouble sometimes. Some of the charges noted here seem really high compared to us. We charge $30 and 95%+ of fundraisers go to scout accounts for whatever, as long as it is troop related. Most only use it for due, camping, and special trips. Occasionally one will ask if they can buy something specific. We review it and approve with a receipt if it falls within the parameters of scouting related. Boys leaving lose their funds to the general fund, while transfers can have the money moved to a new troop with proper verification. We are the oldest troop in the city, and have most of ours scouts from the poorest part of the community. The irony though, is that it is still really hard to get kids to participate in fundraising. We do what we can and hope for the best.

When we reach the point of crossing the line in regard to torture (methods as described as such in the Geneva Convention, which includes waterboarding), we have made ourselves hypocrites and made a case for "not being proud of our country". Why would we want to lower ourselves to that level? Don't we want to always have reason to have pride in our country and what it stands for? These are the kinds of things that have made us targets in many parts of the world, whether we want to admit it or not. We all generally recognize when the gray turns to black, even if we would rather not. Shield up.

Unfortunately, unless you have one or two of them that is dynamic and a motivator of his peers, they will likely continue to sit there waiting to be spoon fed. I have gone through this more than once with older scouts. You put them in a venture patrol because they complain they are bored and cannot deal with the "kiddies". Then you sit down with them and try to get them to come up with ideas and then activate some. No one will take the ball and run; we are back to the symptom so common today, the fear of trying something new because it may fail or is too hard. We successfully started a venture crew a few years ago, because one senior scout had the ability to get them past the syndrome noted above. He went off to college, and it immediately self imploded and came apart. If you can somehow get past this "tell me how", or "do it for us", then they may get off the dime. But, it seems to take one of their own to break them out of the rut. Good luck.

Found this years ago in some of my grandfather's old papers; he was a life-long republican, voting party ticket. Dear Fellow Citizen: I have the pleasure of being a member of a committee to raise fifty billion dollars to be used for placing a statue of Truman in the "Hall of Fame" in Washington D. C. We have not decided not to tease it by placing it next to Washington - who never told a lie, nor next to Lincoln, who was known as Honest Abe. It should not, either, be put next to Thomas Jefferson who served a third term. The committee was in quite a quibble. But after much and careful deliberation we decided to put it next to Columbus who didn't know where he was going; did not know where he was when he got there; didn't know where he had been when he returned; and did it all on borrowed money. The manuscript to be put on the Statue will read; "I pledge allegiance to Harry S. Truman, and to the independence for which he stands, one man indispensable, with corruption for all". Five thousand years ago Moses said, "Pick up thy shovel, mount the ass and camel, and I will take you to the Promised Land". Five thousand years later Truman said, "Lay down thy shovel, sit on your ass, light up a Camel, because this is the Promised Land. If you are one of those who have any money left after taxes have been paid, we will expect a liberal contribution from you immediately. Yours truly, Dear Mr. Anthony: I am a sailor in the United States Navy, and I also have a cousin who is a Democrat. My father has epilepsy and my mother has syphilis, so neither of them works. They are totally dependent on my two sisters, who are prostitutes in Louisville, because my only brother is serving a life term in prison for rape and murder. I am in love with a streetwalker who operates near our base. She knows nothing of my family background but says that she loves me. We intend to get married as soon as she settles her bigamy case, which is now in court. When I get out of the Navy we intend to move to Detroit and open a small house. My problem, Mr. Anthony, is this: In view of the fact that I intend to make this girl my wife and bring her into my family, should I, or should I not, tell her about my cousin who is a Democrat? G. Whizz admin | IP: Logged

Found this years ago in some of my grandfather's old papers. Dear Fellow Citizen: I have the pleasure of being a member of a committee to raise fifty billion dollars to be used for placing a statue of Truman in the "Hall of Fame" in Washington D. C. We have not decided not to tease it by placing it next to Washington - who never told a lie, nor next to Lincoln, who was known as Honest Abe. It should not, either, be put next to Thomas Jefferson who served a third term. The committee was in quite a quibble. But after much and careful deliberation we decided to put it next to Columbus who didn't know where he was going; did not know where he was when he got there; didn't know where he had been when he returned; and did it all on borrowed money. The manuscript to be put on the Statue will read; "I pledge allegiance to Harry S. Truman, and to the independence for which he stands, one man indispensable, with corruption for all". Five thousand years ago Moses said, "Pick up thy shovel, mount the ass and camel, and I will take you to the Promised Land". Five thousand years later Truman said, "Lay down thy shovel, sit on your ass, light up a Camel, because this is the Promised Land. If you are one of those who have any money left after taxes have been paid, we will expect a liberal contribution from you immediately. Yours truly, Dear Mr. Anthony: I am a sailor in the United States Navy, and I also have a cousin who is a Democrat. My father has epilepsy and my mother has syphilis, so neither of them works. They are totally dependent on my two sisters, who are prostitutes in Louisville, because my only brother is serving a life term in prison for rape and murder. I am in love with a streetwalker who operates near our base. She knows nothing of my family background but says that she loves me. We intend to get married as soon as she settles her bigamy case, which is now in court. When I get out of the Navy we intend to move to Detroit and open a small house. My problem, Mr. Anthony, is this: In view of the fact that I intend to make this girl my wife and bring her into my family, should I, or should I not, tell her about my cousin who is a Democrat? G. Whizz

Sharing this great note from our area: I had to tell you this...At Trader Joe's on Saturday, Shirley Lang and Den 5 were selling when a man came up to look at their table. He asked the boys for the large caramel tin. They gave him one and he said..."I would like two please". The boys were excited when he said this and gave him the extra tin. The man then told them..."Last year I was in Iraq. One day we received popcorn from the States with a note saying that the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts of America sold popcorn and collected donations to send corn to the troops in Iraq. My unit was in high spirits that day because we realized that the youth of America was doing their part to let us know that they appreciated us. Thank you boys from this soldier and all the others that I served with. I will always buy popcorn from the Scouts to show MY support to you." How awesome is that? Shirley was very moved by this man as was I when I heard her story. Just goes to show that we are not only helping our boys with these sales, but we are helping those serving over there feel appreciated! Just had to share, Kelsey from Pack 3176 (This message has been edited by skeptic)

OGE: You are right of course; and to think I even have a signed b/w photo Of James "Arness" from the 1960 Jambo. Shame on me for letting my "old-timer disease" get out of control. We do not have Hallmark on our cable; she does not want to pay the extra for it. Am waiting for the change in broadcast to see if maybe they will add it or offer a better deal.

Mighty Mouse for president; Mr. Bill for VP.................

While in college in Arizona my ex and I had a 12" bw tv on which I loved to watch Lost in Space and Twelve-o-clock High. I was deprived in the late 50's, most of the 60's, and even early 70's, having little access to tv. We lived in the desert with no reception unless you had an aerial 40+ feet high. Then was just too poor to have one, or working too many hours. So now, I find myself watching any of the "oldie" stations on cable. Think I have finally seen all the MASH ones, and most of the Bewitched, Genie, Beaver, and so on; but some of the really old ones do not show up much. Waiting for the Waltons to come back on someday, as I often was at work or school during their hey day. Still do not think have seen all the Little House episodes, but they tend to replay what must have been the most popular, or maybe they were only allowed to buy so many? Would like FAME to reappear, as well as a few of the more obscure late 50's sitcoms. Also, Reagan's old program, Twenty Mule Team or something like that. Speaking of old programs; I have always found it funny in a way that on the old Gunsmoke radio program, Matt Dillon was played by Robert Cannon; voice fit perfectly, but compare to James Arnett on the TV version. Just is comical to me. Sure there are lots of others.

OGE That just Frost's me............ Build any walls lately?

So, Old Grey Eagle; did you recognize it, or did you have to look it up? Not too many would recognize it, and most younger people here likely do not even know who he is. I will be going to a performance of his in Palm Springs November 8th. Just curious.

Yep, back in the 70's, I applied for a MC three times through my bank; filled out the application and submitted it. Got turned down each time, even though I had two accounts there with adequate funds and no bounced checks. Turned out that my income from GI Bill (I was a grad student and working full time)was not counted. Finally went to the manager of the bank, and he approved it; but the normal system would not do it. Now, I could have gotten a half dozen or more if I wanted to; but I only have two, and pay them off every month if at all possible. College students get in all kinds of trouble with the "easy" cards. When I was an undergrad in 1969 I had to beg to get a card from my bank in Arizona; the limit was $50, and there was no way they were going to raise it with my income levels at the time. Rational thinking seemed to be use by the banks back in those days.

Who can identify this one? THE ART OF CATCHING TRAINS 1. I came through the clothesline maze of childhood in basketball shoes. Up from the cracked cement of sidewalks. Long hair blowing in the breeze from barber-college haircuts. I moved into the country knowing love better than long division. Tricking out with women twice my age we acted out our own French postcards. Dr. Jekyll in the schoolyard, Mr. Hyde behind the barn. After school the trains, their whistles known by heart. Pennies flattened on a rail and dresser drawers with matchbooks from every northern town - thrown by unknown travelers who never waved back. I knew the U.P. right of way so well that gandy dancers called me tow-head till they learned my name and engineers would sometimes whistle down the scale on seeing my arm raised. Baseball's just a sissy game to anyone who's waved at passing trains. You learn from hobos the art of catching trains. Locomotives slow at trestles and whistle stops to hook the mail. Diving through an open box car you lie there till your breath comes back. Then standing in the doorway you're the king as crowns of hills and towns go by and nighttime eats the Summer up and spits the stars across the sky. How did I come to know so many lonesome cities with only pennies in my pockets ? I smiled a lot and rode a lot of trains and got to know conductors and railroad bulls by name. From Alamo to Naples is a ride that took me nearly twenty years. But here I am, my cardboard suitcase traded in for leather. 2. Now a traveler under the gray-black Winter sky moving down the mountain by torchlight, I've come to find a gathering of eagles. Not for the sake of mingling with the great birds, but only to justify a thousand streets walked end to end. Ten thousand evenings spent listening to the small sounds of the night in station after station. Not every town in Switzerland has a golden Gondelbahn, but there are other ways to climb the hills and reach the lonesome cities of the world. Riding friendly bodies you can inch your way to Heaven let alone the far side of the room and who'd deny that brushing elbows in certain streets has not produced for every man at least one vision of Atlantis. For me old habits don't break easily I wait for trains. Sometimes I feel I've always been just passing through. On my way away, or toward. Shouting alleluias at an unseen choir or whispering Fa-do's down beneath my breath waiting for an echo not an answer. Everybody has the answers or they'll make them up for you. Just once I'd like to hear a brand-new question. What about the trains you ride do they go fast or slow would I recognize your face clacking past the poplar trees if I were stationed on some hill ? If I did I'd know you by the look of nothing in your eyes, the kindred look that travelers have, the one that says a tentative hello. If while riding down the rails you see a boy in overalls along the railroad right of way, wave as you go by. Signal with a frown you too are going down the same road. Small boys need encouragement the freight trains in their minds will only take them just so far. Be kind for small boys need to grow.

Speaking of old shows........... One that was a shoo-in was Get Smart; see it now on one of the "oldies" networks. Same station had Combat a year ago; odd how dated it seemed, especially the jeep scenes. Ever wonder how all these supposedly well trained people can shoot so many bullets and still not hit anything? By the way..........They are talking about bullet trains between Frisco and LA. Ooops, got off track again.

Serious; isn't that the dog star? Oh, no, that's Serius. No catty remarks now..............

Perhaps I have missed it somewhere in the blizzard of comments and often circuitous thoughts, but how do these proposals address the "credit card" usury? While it certainly may not be on the level of the home loan fiasco, I cannot help but think if there were forced caps on credit card debt interest and other fees, many people would then be able to apply more money to paying down the debt. Of course the banks need to suck it up and not count on continuing their obscene profit margins on these services. Maybe it is addressed somewhere in all this already, but I have not been able to pinpoint it. What say those of you more schooled in this area?

This current litany reminds me of some of the absolutely inane and silly gabble from a van load of scouts on a long trip, especially if you are only actually catching every third comment. You find yourself trying to make sense of things, chuckling about some of it, and finally trying to tune it out before it drives you nuts. Truly a scouting board.(This message has been edited by skeptic)