skeptic

NJ; thanks for the reminder. "Sexual orientation was not an issue until sometime in the late 20th century; and then 'Somebody' made it an issue.! Wonder who that was? Also, I rather wonder why someone that is so upset about this to take away the privilege is not also suing to make the Council stop starting all their meetings with an invocation. Isn't that somehow also not legal? Inquiring minds want to know.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Here is material from the city's website regarding this. The actual termination decision in 2006 seems to not be available anywhere, which seems odd to me. Also, the final approval of the resolution is pretty sloppy if the minutes are to be noted. I also found it sad that while perusing minutes for the month of May in 2007, I could not help but notice how many comments and concerns about out of control youth were there. 11-16-06 Transmitting a resolution approving the termination of the arrangement with the Philadelphia Coucil of the Boy Scouts, or its successor, the Cradle of Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts, whereby the Boy Scouts Council occupies a City building located at 22nd and Spring Streets. (File No. 060877) 1 5/31/07 STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS, RESOLUTIONS 2 of the first resolution. 3 CHIEF CLERK: A resolution 4 approving the termination of the 5 arrangement with the Philadelphia 6 Council of the Boy Scouts or its 7 successor, the Cradle of Liberty 8 Council of the Boy Scouts, whereby the 9 Boy Scouts Council occupies a city 10 building located at 22nd and Spring 11 Streets. 12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: The 13 Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. 14 COUNCILMAN CLARKE: I was 15 going to move for the adoption, but I 16 think Councilman O'Neill wants to -- 17 COUNCILMAN KENNEY: Madam 18 President? 19 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Yes? 20 COUNCILMAN KENNEY: I'm not 21 sure what it does. Would you read the 22 resolution? 23 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: I'm 24 sorry. Was the resolution circulated; 25 do we know? 58 2 COUNCILMAN CLARKE: No, it 3 hasn't been circulated. It's an 4 approval of a lease, which 5 traditionally is not circulated, but I 6 don't have a problem with -- 7 COUNCILMAN KENNEY: I'm sorry. 8 The question is: Can we approve a 9 lease with a resolution? 10 COUNCILMAN CLARKE: Yes, yes. 11 COUNCILMAN KENNEY: Okay. 12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: 13 Could you please -- 14 COUNCILMAN CLARKE: It's 15 approving the termination of a lease. 16 COUNCILMAN KENNEY: Oh, the 17 termination. I'm sorry. Never mind. 18 COUNCILMAN CLARKE: 19 Unfortunately. 20 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Do 21 you still want it read? 22 COUNCILMAN KENNEY: No. 23 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Okay. 24 The Chair recognizes 25 Councilman Clarke for a motion on the 59 1 5/31/07 STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS, RESOLUTIONS 2 resolution. 3 COUNCILMAN CLARKE: Madam 4 President, I move for the adoption of 5 the resolution. 6 (Motion seconded.) 7 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: It 8 has been moved and properly seconded 9 that the resolution be adopted. 10 All those in favor will 11 signify by saying aye. 12 Those opposed? 13 COUNCILMAN O'NEILL: No. 14 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: 15 Okay. The record will reflect that 16 Councilman O'Neill voted in the 17 negative, and all other members voted 18 in the affirmative; therefore, the 19 resolution is adopted.5/31/07 STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS, RESOLUTIONS (Resolution No. 070522) RESOLUTION Approving termination of the arrangement with the Philadelphia Council of the Boy Scouts, or its successor, the Cradle of Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts, whereby the Boy Scouts Council occupies a City building located at 22nd and Spring Streets. WHEREAS, In 1928 the City of Philadelphia gave the Philadelphia Council of the Boy Scouts (now known as the Cradle of Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts, and referred to here as the Boy Scouts) permission to build, at its own expense, a building located on City land located at 22nd and Spring Streets; and WHEREAS, As reflected in the grant of permission, set forth in an ordinance of Council approved December 14, 1928, the building was to become at once the property of the City; and WHEREAS, The Boy Scouts, pursuant to that grant of permission, built a building at that location, which it currently used as a regional headquarters; and WHEREAS, The national Boy Scouts organization has a policy of discrimination based on sexual orientation with respect to its members and scoutmasters and has required the local Boy Scouts to implement its discriminatory policy by excluding participation on the basis of sexual orientation; and WHEREAS, The local Boy Scouts unfortunately has implemented that discriminatory policy and publicly has declared its intention to continue doing so; and WHEREAS, The non-discrimination provisions of the Citys Home Rule Charter and the Citys Fair Practices Ordinance reflect broad City policy abhorring discrimination and the Boy Scouts policy and conduct is directly contrary to the principles of equal access and opportunity enshrined in Philadelphia law; and WHEREAS, Pursuant to this policy, the City seeks to ensure that the benefits of City subsidies are made available to all citizens on a non-discriminatory basis; and WHEREAS, The Citys ongoing subsidy of a discriminatory organization through the allowance of free use of a building is directly contrary to the Citys policy and practice of refusing to support discrimination, and of ensuring non-discriminatory access to City benefits; and WHEREAS, Pursuant to the terms of the permission granted to the Boy Scouts, the building and property is to be surrendered to the City within one year after notice of a desire to terminate given by the Commissioners of Fairmount Park, with the approval of the Mayor and City Council; and WHEREAS, The Fairmount Park Commission and the Mayor, through the City Solicitor, have provided notice of ejectment from the property to the Boy Scouts on July 20, 2006, subject to withdrawal upon agreement by the Boy Scouts to pay fair market rent; and WHEREAS, The Fairmount Park Commission has approved at its meeting on July 24, 2006 the July 20, 2006, notice and has approved termination of the arrangement with the Boy Scouts, subject to withdrawal upon agreement by the Boy Scouts to pay fair market rent or the Boy Scouts ending its discriminatory policy and practice; and WHEREAS, The Boy Scouts have failed to respond to the City regarding the July 20, 2006 letter; now therefore RESOLVED, BY THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA, That termination of the arrangement with the Boy Scouts, whereby the Boy Scouts occupy City land and a City building located at 22nd and Spring Streets, is hereby approved, subject to withdrawal upon agreement by the Boy Scouts to pay fair market rent or the Boy Scouts ending its discriminatory policy and practice. Introduced October 25, 2007 Councilmembers Kelly, O'Neill, Ramos and Krajewski RESOLUTION Calling upon The City of Philadelphia and Fairmount Park Commission to allow the Boy Scouts to remain in the facility located at 22nd & Spring Streets until they obtain a suitable new location, and urging them to compensate the Boy Scouts in full, for any and all improvements which they have made to the facility throughout the term of their lease. WHEREAS, In 1928, the City of Philadelphia gave the Philadelphia Council of the Boy Scouts (now known as the Cradle of Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts, and referred to here as the Boy Scouts) permission to build, at its own expense, a building located on City land located at 22nd and Spring Streets; and WHEREAS, As reflected in the grant of permission, set forth in an ordinance of Council approved December 14, 1928, the building was to become at once the property of the City; and WHEREAS, Pursuant to the terms of the permission granted to the Boy Scouts, the building and property is to be surrendered to the City within one year after notice of a desire to terminate given by the Commissioners of Fairmount Park, with the approval of the Mayor and City Council; and WHEREAS, The Fairmount Park Commission and the Mayor, through the City Solicitor, provided notice of eviction from the property to the Boy Scouts on July 20, 2006, subject to withdrawal upon agreement by the Boy Scouts to pay fair market rent; and WHEREAS, The Boy Scouts notice of eviction was inopportune, and does not allow the Boy Scouts adequate time to search for a suitable new facility; and WHEREAS, Over the course of their lease, the Boy Scouts have paid for numerous improvements to the facility located at 22nd and Spring Streets which is a city owned facility and thus, the City of Philadelphia should compensate them for the improvements; and WHEREAS, The Boy Scouts have provided countless community services to The City of Philadelphia and have offered innumerable programs for hundreds of thousands of children since 1928, all at no cost to the City; now therefore RESOLVED, BY THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA, That it hereby Calls upon The City of Philadelphia and Fairmount Park Commission to allow the Boy Scouts to remain in the facility located at 22nd & Spring Streets until they obtain a suitable new location, and urges them to compensate the Boy Scouts in full, for any and all improvements which they have made to the facility throughout the term of their lease.

While I would love to think that the comment about cool is not pertinent, I am afraid it may be too close to the truth. I have noticed over the years that fewer and fewer units seem to have even a slight clue as to what it means to be respectful during flag ceremonies, much less how to actually march and do parade maneuvers. When I was a scout and explorer back in the dark ages we did the good old O'Grady drills and had a color guard unit with the white leggings and even plugged special parade rifles. We were sponsored by a VFW post, and they were serious about us looking good. I have tried a few times to get my own boys to do some semblance of proper marching, but they seem to have very little interest. While I am sure there are likely a few extremely spiffy units out there, they likely are not very common. Just to get them to stand at attention for more than 30 seconds is a challenge. A few years back I mentioned trying to put together an Eagle/NESA honor guard team for local flag presentations. The leaders of the other units all said it would never happen; that it would take too much time and commitment from the older scouts. March in a parade? Not likely! JMG(grumpy)O

Wonder what the feelings are about this one. While I tend to think the companies reap what they sow, it is a bit scary to think what will happen if they do go under. There is some rational for bailing them out, in my mind, probably at least as much as the banks, and very likely more, as they are more related to the real people who labor in the middle class trenches. What say you all? Please try to not go off on tangents of vitriol and non-scout comments.

While tying the correct knot may be preferable, the real issue is that he was able and willing to act to rectify the situation, and that he had the ability to get support of his patrol. That is the ideal of being a leader, and what we hope may happen with our own charges at some point. What makes this movie so appealing to many of us is that it does an exceptional job of showing both the dedication of concerned adults, and the ability of a "fun" program to develop young minds and character.

One of the things Scouting still does if kept in its purpose is to wean scouts from the over-protective mode too prevalent today. As GW points out, that includes numerous skills besides swimming. The apparent great interest by many youth, including non-scouts, in the recent book (the title escapes me; sorry)that challenges them to try things no longer normal to their generation certainly shows that they are still interested. Signaling was a skill that required a lot of effort and time for many of us; but it taught more than the skill. The perseverance required was itself a learning tool.

The local elementary school libraries love them; I take my read copies in to one of them every few months. They seem to be one of the most popular items in the library I am regularly told. Also heard rumor that they plan on putting merit badge books out in regular stores as well. Anyone seen them yet?

This being Veterans' Day, I thought I might see how others feel about some type of simple adult uniform device to recognize those who have served in any capacity of the military. NOT a knot!! Perhaps a simple device worn along with the service stars; one type, or equal sized emblems symbolizing the particular branch. Just curious.

For a number of years we had something a bit more detailed at our COR. Each patrol was given 5 ropes, I think, and they had to suspend a log in the air from one point to another. They had to use a clove hitch and timber hitch on the log, a taut-line to raise it up and tighten, join ropes using square and sheet bend, start with two halfs, and take up slack using a sheet-bend in one longer rope. Of course it was both timed and judged on correct knots. Have seen a good patrol do it in a minute or less. They were given up to 15 minutes if necessary. Great contest.

Last night on our localish station from Santa Barbara they were talking to a few people on the street. A woman informed the reporter that she is ready for the end, and is preparing herself for it through prayer. How can people be so completely illogical just because someone with whom they do not agree is elected? It is not the praying part that bothers me, as I do think that is certainly in order for the country as a whole, and for the president elect particularly as he confronts such a huge uphill climb. Meanwhile, it appears we will be sitting here with another proposition passed by the electorate that will mean very little as the ACLU, and other groups are already beginning their legal preparations. It will likely be put in limbo indefinitely, as the case is fought in court. And, this being what it is, it will probably eventually be tossed out by the state and federal courts as unconstitutional. Meanwhile, millions of dollars that could have served a better purpose has been squandered by both sides. How sad.

This is one of those areas where I sort of look the other way regarding the patch. I have attended two, one as a boy in 1960, and one as a leader in 1985. I have the 85 on my current shirt, and may eventually have the 60 on one that fits (it is on an older shirt that shrank in the closet). Kids should want to know what that was like, IMHO; what were earlier gatherings about and what occurred. Also, they are simply part of the history of the program. So, in this case, the "uniform police" can ticket me.

Yep, it is still leading; but the results are narrowing; and it may take days to sort it all out because there is a large amount of absentee ballots involved. We will see. Then the court will immediately get involved and say it is unconstitutional and tie it up some more. I can see the Ninth Circuit gearing up already.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Sorry, but the idea that people without kids is "creepy" is lame IMO. When people no longer have kids in the program do they suddenly lose their abilities to contribute constructive service? Are we to simply deny skills offered by experienced scouters, or scouts who either have had their kids leave home as adults, or were not blessed with kids for some reason? Just think of it; if Lemuel and his wife had not adopted Whitey, they would not have been able to be leaders. Then where would we be? What would Scouting be without FOLLOW ME BOYS?

Lem, the reason for asking was simply to get a better perspective as to where you may be getting your personal thoughts. If you are not directly involved, as was just noted, then your ideas are not necessarily based on practical use within the actual program. There is nothing wrong with outside comments and observations; but too often they are based on incorrect assumptions or bias from outside the program. I think you might find some of your ideas have already been tried. Others perhaps will be. When someone does, and reports back on their levels of success, it should be useful. Thank you for clarifying your position. And certainly continue to participate. Just try to keep an open mind, and please try to comment on what works from your perspective as well.

Lem; still waiting for clarification as to what your involvement is. If you are actually in the program, you know that you can suggest these things to your group and see if they will run with it. Then, maybe it can be reported on. If part, or even all, works, then perhaps it could be expanded to other groups. But, every troop is different, and direct competition is not the primary focus in scouting. In our troop, there is statement visible above the board; "Live the 12". That is the focus. Finding ways to hopefully instill that into their lives, not only now, but into the future.

So Lem, how are you involved in helping possibly solve these problems you say are so prominent? Going back and looking at your posts, you indicate you were a scout in the 80's, but now you don't get them. Sounds to me you are not really involved, only want to stir the pot somehow. Perhaps I am wrong; but it surely looks that way to me. Yes, leaders can be more fit; but that is not the only criterion, as has been noted already. And, in many troops, the older leaders have stepped back to be more counselors and turned the physical elements over to younger, more capable men. We need both types in the program. Over the years, I have had a few instances where so called fit individuals, both adults and youth, have come on backpacks with us and not able to "hack it", even though they would look down at scouts as being weak and lame. I would wager that a large percentage of sports oriented individuals could not make it on a fifty miler, or possibly even a five miler. And once there, they would not be able to fend for themselves as well as most of the first year scouts. Quit trying to compare non-similar programs. And open your eyes to the realities that most people are not regular "winners". Failure or average is far more real. Scouts say, "On my honor, I will do my best". That is where we should be putting our emphasis. And yes, we can do better, which we all recognize.

http://derbytalk.com http://grandprix-race-central.com/ Perhaps these may be of help or interest here.

Because he is a Lawyer and has fantasies of taking down the BSA.

But feedback is!!

Couple observations and thoughts here. First of all, in the 30+ years as a leader I have had 25 Eagles, so I guess we are not a mill. I have set on fifty or more boards for other troops in our district. While we certainly have had the geeks and nerds, many are athletes as well; often the reason they are coming in under the wire age wise. In my troop, one Eagle was the president of the hs student body, captain of the water polo team, president of a service club on campus, and still finished his Eagle under the wire. Then went on to graduate with honors from NASU where he went on a full academic scholarship. Another Eagle who left my troop before earning it, but finished with some buds in the city, was an all star varsity football player and now earning superior grades in college. One in five Eagles from our area are in sports, and half are in the top tier; yet they stay in the program as best they can. If there are bad vibes regarding the program, most of them come from the idiots who seem to feel the necessity to run anything of worth down. Why, because they either were not given the opportunity, or because they learned it from their own parents. Remember, we are now pretty much into the 3rd generation after Dr. Spock and his ilk; and the results are showing in all areas of our society. Too many parents seem to think that scouting should not follow the rules, and cause difficulty in many troops. Their kid is special, and he needs extra help or to have rules altered. Baloney! He needs to learn things and rise to the challenge. If the unit caters to these people, yes it will be weak and not set the example. But, at least in our area, troops tend to have pretty good outdoor programs. And, reality is, that is still what holds the kids. Yes, over-weight and out of shape leaders can be a hindrance. I am struggling right now to find younger, better fit adults to take the outdoor program on. I cannot any longer do what I once could; partly due to weight, and partly simply older age maladies that come to haunt you from younger age injuries. We can always do better; but the program is still viable and has its place. With effort and work, it may even start to win back a few supporters. But, with all the other distractions of today, it will not likely ever have the same success as it did when it was one of the only activities available. One more thing; yes, Eagle still means something. But, we need to try to make sure that we keep it meaningful. Example. Last year in our council there were 203 Eagles; their service hours for projects came to over 26,000 hours. Most benefactors were schools, community parks, churches, and government outdoor related entities. Where would the communities be without these efforts? We just need to make it clearer to them that scouting still serves the community at large. Quit finding excuses and simply do what ever you can to keep it going and "Do Your Best".

Wow; no wonder we have trouble sometimes. Some of the charges noted here seem really high compared to us. We charge $30 and 95%+ of fundraisers go to scout accounts for whatever, as long as it is troop related. Most only use it for due, camping, and special trips. Occasionally one will ask if they can buy something specific. We review it and approve with a receipt if it falls within the parameters of scouting related. Boys leaving lose their funds to the general fund, while transfers can have the money moved to a new troop with proper verification. We are the oldest troop in the city, and have most of ours scouts from the poorest part of the community. The irony though, is that it is still really hard to get kids to participate in fundraising. We do what we can and hope for the best.

When we reach the point of crossing the line in regard to torture (methods as described as such in the Geneva Convention, which includes waterboarding), we have made ourselves hypocrites and made a case for "not being proud of our country". Why would we want to lower ourselves to that level? Don't we want to always have reason to have pride in our country and what it stands for? These are the kinds of things that have made us targets in many parts of the world, whether we want to admit it or not. We all generally recognize when the gray turns to black, even if we would rather not. Shield up.

Unfortunately, unless you have one or two of them that is dynamic and a motivator of his peers, they will likely continue to sit there waiting to be spoon fed. I have gone through this more than once with older scouts. You put them in a venture patrol because they complain they are bored and cannot deal with the "kiddies". Then you sit down with them and try to get them to come up with ideas and then activate some. No one will take the ball and run; we are back to the symptom so common today, the fear of trying something new because it may fail or is too hard. We successfully started a venture crew a few years ago, because one senior scout had the ability to get them past the syndrome noted above. He went off to college, and it immediately self imploded and came apart. If you can somehow get past this "tell me how", or "do it for us", then they may get off the dime. But, it seems to take one of their own to break them out of the rut. Good luck.

Found this years ago in some of my grandfather's old papers; he was a life-long republican, voting party ticket. Dear Fellow Citizen: I have the pleasure of being a member of a committee to raise fifty billion dollars to be used for placing a statue of Truman in the "Hall of Fame" in Washington D. C. We have not decided not to tease it by placing it next to Washington - who never told a lie, nor next to Lincoln, who was known as Honest Abe. It should not, either, be put next to Thomas Jefferson who served a third term. The committee was in quite a quibble. But after much and careful deliberation we decided to put it next to Columbus who didn't know where he was going; did not know where he was when he got there; didn't know where he had been when he returned; and did it all on borrowed money. The manuscript to be put on the Statue will read; "I pledge allegiance to Harry S. Truman, and to the independence for which he stands, one man indispensable, with corruption for all". Five thousand years ago Moses said, "Pick up thy shovel, mount the ass and camel, and I will take you to the Promised Land". Five thousand years later Truman said, "Lay down thy shovel, sit on your ass, light up a Camel, because this is the Promised Land. If you are one of those who have any money left after taxes have been paid, we will expect a liberal contribution from you immediately. Yours truly, Dear Mr. Anthony: I am a sailor in the United States Navy, and I also have a cousin who is a Democrat. My father has epilepsy and my mother has syphilis, so neither of them works. They are totally dependent on my two sisters, who are prostitutes in Louisville, because my only brother is serving a life term in prison for rape and murder. I am in love with a streetwalker who operates near our base. She knows nothing of my family background but says that she loves me. We intend to get married as soon as she settles her bigamy case, which is now in court. When I get out of the Navy we intend to move to Detroit and open a small house. My problem, Mr. Anthony, is this: In view of the fact that I intend to make this girl my wife and bring her into my family, should I, or should I not, tell her about my cousin who is a Democrat? G. Whizz admin | IP: Logged

Found this years ago in some of my grandfather's old papers. Dear Fellow Citizen: I have the pleasure of being a member of a committee to raise fifty billion dollars to be used for placing a statue of Truman in the "Hall of Fame" in Washington D. C. We have not decided not to tease it by placing it next to Washington - who never told a lie, nor next to Lincoln, who was known as Honest Abe. It should not, either, be put next to Thomas Jefferson who served a third term. The committee was in quite a quibble. But after much and careful deliberation we decided to put it next to Columbus who didn't know where he was going; did not know where he was when he got there; didn't know where he had been when he returned; and did it all on borrowed money. The manuscript to be put on the Statue will read; "I pledge allegiance to Harry S. Truman, and to the independence for which he stands, one man indispensable, with corruption for all". Five thousand years ago Moses said, "Pick up thy shovel, mount the ass and camel, and I will take you to the Promised Land". Five thousand years later Truman said, "Lay down thy shovel, sit on your ass, light up a Camel, because this is the Promised Land. If you are one of those who have any money left after taxes have been paid, we will expect a liberal contribution from you immediately. Yours truly, Dear Mr. Anthony: I am a sailor in the United States Navy, and I also have a cousin who is a Democrat. My father has epilepsy and my mother has syphilis, so neither of them works. They are totally dependent on my two sisters, who are prostitutes in Louisville, because my only brother is serving a life term in prison for rape and murder. I am in love with a streetwalker who operates near our base. She knows nothing of my family background but says that she loves me. We intend to get married as soon as she settles her bigamy case, which is now in court. When I get out of the Navy we intend to move to Detroit and open a small house. My problem, Mr. Anthony, is this: In view of the fact that I intend to make this girl my wife and bring her into my family, should I, or should I not, tell her about my cousin who is a Democrat? G. Whizz