skeptic

Calico; While I hope your take on it is right, I fear that more likely it is because many, especially those who have their noses out of joint to one side or the other, really do not have knowledge of the prominent men involved in BSA's beginning. I suspect that both Beard and Seton would be appalled at some of the things that go on today in the program and the statements and claims that are made. On the other hand, they might also be pleased that some element of the program still clings to the things they found important in life and in leading youth. From my perspective, one of our biggest problems today is the egocentricity of much of the populace, and the misconception that "freedom" means "license". One can hope that harder times might bring the sense of community back into vogue, rather than the continued "me first" attitude currently so common. Only time will tell; and that includes this presidency which is still in its infancy. For me, it is far too early to pass judgement.

Who was/is "Daniel Seaton"? Possibly a clone of Dan Beard and Earnest Thompson Seton? Just wondered.

Yep, we, as adults, need to recognize that we have to draw a line as to what is acceptable in our units, and our own lives for that matter. The problem I see is that for whatever reason, too many people seem to think that we need to give youth a pass on things we really know are not acceptable, because they are just "testing the boundaries", or they are "just being kids", and other weak excuses. What it seems to mean to me is that far too many adults do not have the backbone to stand up to the kids and "draw the line" where it should be drawn. As scouts, they supposedly are working on being on a higher plane than many of their peers; they have the Oath and Law as guides through life, not just scout meetings and activities. We need to talk ourselves blue in the face, if need be, with the expectation that they toe a shorter line and uphold the standards found in scouting. Otherwise, why are we even bothering?

Hal; Yep; guess I should have added the punch line. Thanks.

Beavah; Do we start with a ruler or yard-stick; or do we need to go to the two x four? Surely most of you are aware of the balky mule, the farmer, and his new bride. So, should we consider that kind of treatment for most of our representatives?

TheScout; etal: Just once I would like to see you guys suck it up and admit perhaps you aren't always smarter than the average bear. The real question might be how long would it have been for the internet, as we know it, to become a reality if the first renditions, under the government and colleges, had not occurred? Same really goes for computers too, as they were really pushed in their infancy during WWII, by the government. Rockets, modern planes, "Tang", solar energy, radar, sonar, plasma, field medicine which led to paramedics............... Many would not have gotten very far without the in field testing done by the military or NASA. Go back to your gun fetishes; many of your coveted weapons were developed for the military first. Oh well; none of that makes any difference, as Obama is "The Anti-Christ"! I almost forgot.

BrentAllen: You say you are a history expert; so what made this country what it has been until recently? Initiative, innovation, and invention, leading to solving of problems useful world-wide. Maybe we will have those again once the whiners and businesses that have become short term profiteers have left. Maybe, just maybe, if CEO's, boards of directors, and politicians on both sides had taken blinders off, they would have reacted to many of these problems in their infancies. This I want/deserve all I can get, right now attitude is a large percentage of the problem. Ignoring infrastructure breakdowns, profiteering by large groups of people (usually those with the most already), career politicians, and realities such as fossil fuels are not infinite and new technologies need to be found and developed is why we are here now. While we are at it; give Carter a break. He may not have been the best president; but he did far less harm the last. Besides, he inherited half of his problems, and had little help in Washington. His biggest flaw is probably that he is basically too moral to be a successful politician on that level. JMO; so have fun.

Gotta go with Lisa on this one. From my perspective, the word and its variants simply replace using the widely unacceptable in general conversation. If they thought they could get away with it, it would be the actual word, just as they hear and see used in movies (which we know they see somehow)or is used by far too many of the pop culture icons. They have learned, for the most part, to not do that in front of me, nor, for that matter, use other substitutes for generic swearing. Of course, I realize they continue to do it otherwise. Very unlikely to have much affect on the I am afraid. But, one can hope.

Mile High; Would have to disagree in regard to hatchets, and even axes. They are no different than any other tool if used as intended. Proper safety and precautions should be learned, and violations should result in the individual not being allowed to use. On the other hand, small saws are often all you need in today's camping environments for downed wood prep. In exceptional cases, use of an axe is called for. Certainly they should only be used by senior scouts or adults, and even they should have had proper training first. Use of wood tools is important in many scouting activities. And, on occasion, they also have uses outside of scouting. JMHO

B.A. said; " Why is this important? If you study your history, you will know the reason the US was able to field an army so quickly for WWII was because we had so many civilians competent in riflery. These citizens became soldiers and instructors." You can achieve this competence without needing automatic or assault rifles. No one has said a thing about having general competence here, only common sense rules. While you may not personally be ready to use the assault or auto weapons for anything but rapid fire target obliteration; there are way too many who would if given an opening. Yes, they often get around the laws anyway; but having NO barriers is just asking for more trouble. The real problem I see today is that there is very little willingness for any type of compromise anymore by fringe groups and ideologues. Common sense seems to have become an out-dated conception. Who do you think is responsible for the majority of the damage by gun fire in our BLM, National, and State Park lands. Unlikely law abiding and sensible people. As far as our societal woes go; Obama certainly did not bring us to this point. He is even less responsible than FDR was when most of his plans began. It seems that you would rather we do "nothing", and let things continue to the path of total disintegration, than even attempt anything. This is the same inept attitude that our republican state representatives in California have; lets refuse to approve any taxes, no matter if the state goes bankrupt. But lets also not make any alternate plans; we can always say we did not vote to raise taxes. Meanwhile, we lay off thousands of teachers, various city utility workers, and so on; but they did not raise taxes, so they can hold their heads high and continue to take their salary as well. What total bunk and ego! I can only hope that the next election we see most of them thrown out, as well as the majority of the idiot democrats who helped get us there in the first place. If even 25% of the efforts work we are better off than we were. You will have your chance to get him out in 4 years or a little less. Hopefully though, by that time, there will be other choices that have brains and are willing to at least try to look beyond their own blindered opinions and political stereotypes. Back to my local Scouting. Maybe I can do something positive there to offset some of this negativity.

You guys are pieces of work; it is just a bit worrisome that you might well be preaching this negative attitude to scouts. It is one thing to disagree; quite another to make blatant statements that verge on asking for the President's failure. Yet, what do you propose in the meantime? I have seen no even remotely alternative plans from the gloom mongers, and certainly almost no effort by the republican side to even attempt to seriously deal with the disintegration of our society. Whether or not the proposals and bills work, they could at least not start digging the holes under them before they are even in affect. Secondarily, while I feel gun ownership is okay, with proper safety precautions and training. But, I have yet to understand how "war weapons", those specifically made only for rapid killing, have a place in personal, home based gun ownership. Other than to say, "Mine is more powerful than yours", or something to that effect, what is the reason for having them? Flame shield up.

Wondering if anyone can shed new light on those of us who are not yet assigned, but received the patch and letter? Our local council exec in charge of Jambo has no info, other than they approved me. Even though my schedule and availability are pretty flexible, it would nice to have an inkling as to plans for the summer. Especially since I am seriously considering doing a cross country trip from California in conjunction. Thanks for any current input.

Possibly they could simply delete the record at National, but not bother with anything else. The fine print explanation under "trustworthy" back in the old days indicated they could take away badges. A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY: A Scout's honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate this honor by cheating, lying, or not doing an assigned task, when trusted upon his honor, he may be directed to hand over his scout badge. We had to memorize all the explanations of the time. Still, apparently there is no record at National level of this. I do know that we have had Silver Beaver recipients disappear from the lists when they were convicted of certain crimes. Possibly there may be Eagles on local levels as well.

Once again they pass up a chance to make travel a bit less expensive for those of us on the West coast, and even midwest. Granted, perhaps the choice was the best available; I do not know what may have been offered more centrally. But I was truly hoping that they would settle on something about mid country. Ironically, I was just reading in an old Scouting Magazine from 1932 about the original gift of Schiff. Of course they sold that off. We will have to see.

This seems as good a place as any to say happy BD to the BSA. One year to go to the hundredth.

Your aside that if a prejudice is against Gays or atheists it is okay with the BSA is erroneous IMO. The BSA position does not encourage leaders to do any such thing; they only state that these life styles are not compatible, in their judgment, with the basic tenets of scouting. Good leaders will not abide denigration of others, especially in the presence of scouts. You can disagree with people and their choices, and still be tolerant of their rights to believe as they do.

76 Titles, many issued in more than one type. The BSHB was issued numerous times, beginning with the 1914 edition. The first type had the scout symbol in red on the front of the book, but not on the spine. The covers were all more or less khaki colored. There are a number of subtle variants of the symbol and semaphore flags in the background. The second type had the same front design, but also the scout symbol on the spine. Type 3 had an embossed symbol on the spine (hard to see on many of them) and the covers were weird greens, browns, orange and so on; there was no design on the front. Dust jackets were often ornate, especially in the earlier types. That was an ongoing project for Joe Price; finding new versions of jackets that he had not seen. I have a couple that he copied on his machine, so he would have an example. The type 3 jackets were more modern, and less ornate. Books were all printed by Grossett and Dunlap for the BSA. Almost all have the facimile letter in the front from West. According to Joe, there are a few anomolies out there without it that appear to be real, probably printed specially for libraries or something. Another variant is the Seton BIOGRAPHY OF A GRIZZLY. Seton did not want the book issued in the format of the others, so they do not quite fit in with the others. There is a list by Miller out there, if you can find it; and there are also Thorsens museum lists still available. I think you can still buy it from Stevenson on the internet. May be some other sources out there as well. By the way, rumor has it that the Collecting Scouting Literature is to be issued this year in an updated version. I am waiting expectantly, as that is my checklist. By the way, if anyone has a copy of Pete, Cowpuncher at a reasonable price, I would love to buy it. That is the only title I am missing now. Good luck to the new collectors. It has taken me 30+ years to find all the ones I have and stay in the budget.

Below is a link to the Seattle council's request for a retraction, and its reasons. If they are forthright in this, then the article is not only slanted, but simply inaccurate. seattlebsa.org/News/SeattlePI-Response.p df

Yes, the swim thing can be a real sticking point. Over the years I have had a small number of boys who did not make it through them, and a few more who barely passed, but then could not deal with alternate badges for Eagle, usually because they were the only one doing them, and the drive was not there. Also have had a few who got past the early requirements, and then took advantage of the alternates on their own. I have also had a few instances where a parent really got vexed when I would not waive the swimming. To them, it was not fair to challenge a physically able boy to overcome a mental issue. Lost a few that way, but one or two of the boys understood better than their parents and dealt with it. Funny story with one of the almost non-swimmers. He never made it past first class, but stayed with us through high school, and then helped out while in JC. He is now a major in the army. But, he decided that since I swam the mile every summer at camp, very slowly with rest strokes, that he could too. But the only rest stroke he had mastered was the elementary back stroke. He swam the mile using nothing but the elementary; took him a bit over an hour. But the fact he did it was far more important than the patch, and probably contributed to his overall growth dramatically. One other thing that, at least here in the West, happens often on swim check day is the combination of often high altitude and cold water. Our local camp until recently never had a pool cover, and its water was always in the low 60's at best. Add 5700 feet elevation and scouts coming from sea level, and you have exhaustion and shock waiting to happen. I try to remind the boys that the test is not a race, and that they might use less tiring strokes the first day; but most either only know some poor variant of the crawl, or just want to prove they are the fastest. And some end up not finishing and having to come back the next day. They usually do not make the same mistake the next year. Enough of my wind.

Lisabob; Liked your post and perspective. Reminded me of 1959 when I told my parents I wanted to go to Colorado Springs. They said, what does that cost. Cost, for going from So Cal where I lived, for our contingent, was $450, plus $50 estimated uniform expense, and any spending money; so, at the time, about $550. My parents said, "Okay, we'll buy your uniforms". I went, and they only bought the uniforms, and drove me to training and the train station. The boys whose parents simply paid for it pretty much complained about everything, even then. They had no conception as to what it meant to "earn" their way. Those of us who did, seemed to get more out of it. Three weeks never to be forgotten; train from So Cal to Colorado via Arizona and New Mexico, Colorado Springs, AF Academy, Garden of the Gods, Jamboree, Cheyenne Frontier Days, Salt Lake City and its sites, Great Salt Lake, huge pit mine, San Francisco with China Town, tour, Gateway Park, and a stay in the Grand Hotel; and sleeping in berths, eating in dining cars, and watching sites from observation cars. In 85 I went as a leader, and it too was an experience, but totally different; shared with four scouts from my own troop, and my nephews from another council. No kids of my own. Now hope to be on staff; got the patch, but no position yet. Choose what is important for you, then do it.

Less than 48 hours in, and O'Reilly is already beating on him and moaning about how the country is under attack and going downhill fast. Anybody remember the talking heads?

Merlyn: You must be having a stroke right now, if you have been observing the inauguration. Invocations, benedictions, grace, Obama referring to the bible in his speech. Not quite what you hoped for so far, I guess.

Probably mostly due to the other activities inflexible policies. My experience has been that scouts who choose to participate in these, especially on the middle school level or higher, find themselves being told they will be dropped should they miss even one or two practices; and that is even when they add them in or change their schedules. As far as they are concerned, nothing else matters. It is really too bad that scouts are considered optional by the others, no matter what the activity. I have had scouts have to forgo almost every type of event at one time or another.

Eagledad; Guess what I am trying to say, or ask, is; Would the issue of unacceptable leadership example of Gays, as stated by National by the term "avowed", be better accepted if it was applied in a more generic sense, referring to other sources deemed to be poor examples, rather than only to "avowed Gays"? Does that make sense now?

While it is fun to poke fun, can someone perhaps comment seriously about this? The question is shouldn't the idea that "avowed" Gays are not suitable for leadership of youth possibly expand to include a broader base of others whose "avowed" life styles or beliefs become a hindrance or distraction? I cannot help but think that the reason, as has been pointed out by so many, that Gays have been in leadership, mostly without our knowledge or concern, is that they have not made it an issue; they have not flaunted it as "the way" to live, nor disrupted the programs with the interference of their choices. The same problem should possibly be addressed in a broader sense in regard to other amoral, illegal, or unhealthy examples displayed to the the youth. I truly wonder what the thoughts may be on this, or if the usual combatants are too shallow to address it.