skeptic

Just think; if they still allowed supervised adult, but TLC reviews, maybe there would be less issue. And, the youth might even learn something about life and how to make rational and fair judgments. In the years when that was still the method, I do not recall but one or two instances where the youth overstepped, and in one case, we determined after review that it really was not the case.

I accept that this particular issue is not huge, but again, in respect to the history of Scouting, proper name spelling "should" be important. But, I believe grammar and spelling, espeically names of important people should be of import. At the same time, if it does not concern you, that is your right and in my view, maybe your loss as well On this forum, those that mostly criticize me are the same, and I can almost predict that response. Look past me as someone you may not feel is worth noting, but do not look past the youth who needs to see that care in writing, or speeech is important to their character and success. JMHO of course. Carry on, and maybe work on pushing the mostly positive side of Scouting. Surely our sick society could use that.

While the levity is possibly warranted, it also reflects on a serious issue in our society, in my old guy view. Spelling and grammar are important things, whether in these forums or in life. In the case of Scouting history, it seems right that the name should be properly spelled, at least to me. It reminds me a bit of the teacher that asked me why I circled mispelled words on a student's paper, even if the word was not related to the subject directly. I told her that I felt education should extend beyond the lines and subject, and that spelling was an important skill in its own right, even if it had little or nothing to do with the subject. I was not marking the student down, just drawing their attention to the importance, as I saw it. Everybody has a viewpoint, and many obviously do not agree with me. Their right. Th anks for the couple chuckles too. Interesting, as an aside, Seton did not settle on his name in print until years later, when he generally usedl Ernest Thompson Seton, or E. T. Seton. Some of his early writing has Ernest Seto Thompson on it. but the Seton was still spelled that way.

Two things. Seton is how the name is spelled. Please, if you choose to discuss the man and his family, please spell it correctly. Second; yes Campfire was indirectly a sister to BSA through Dan Beard. A while back, maybe almost ten years now, I was responded to by a Granddauter of Beard, clairifying the connection. Tos some extent, people in that era intermingled with their attempts to create healthy and viable youth groups, even on occasion sharing camps and so on. I wonder, other than clearer historical notes, how important it is, and if those that seem to waant to cast vague inuendo at times really care that those people, mostly male at the time, truly care or just like to stir pots. Seton, not Seaton please.

While I am fairly sure that much was not shared with CO's , I also am aware that much of the confusion came from few taking note of the quiet insurance companies altering their fine print. At one time the coverage was there, but over time many insurance companies modified much of their coverages, adding fine print that made minor changes that were not obvious to many, especially if faith had been put in them from prior history. Carelessness in not paying attention still is not a good image, but I would suggest that was what it was. Now, when it was discovered, we still need to wonder why the insurance companies were allowed to continue this, and if they insisted, we did not find other protections. MOre than enough blame to go around, but my personal experience with the insurance industry is NOT postive in regard to their constantly finding ways to not pay, or to decrease the liability and then force someone to court, which many cannot afford> Again, Just my observations.

Go for it. There is much to be said for reviewing stuff from decades back for use today, keeping safety and YP issues in mind of course. But many of the activities are not unsafe if done with skill and care and of course real supervision. Much of the time the youth take to it with vigor. .

Blame it on the lawyers. CYA runs rampant nowadays, especially with BSA. But it really does intrude on us all far too often. Our HOA is suffering from the lack of personal responsibility being a consideration in law suits. A Child is injured playing on site and it is the fault of the HOA, even though a number of us saw her get knocked down on the grass by her large puppy. And falling off of something not men=ant to be a seat is simply the way things happen with kids playing. Similarly, elderly being a bit unstable with age and mobility is a common issue, but if a fall occurs it is the fault of the HOA, even if the person has shown a tendency toward balance issues. I have those issues, and I keep a hiking pole for balance should I need it, and I am cognicent that surfaces are not always perfect and that I need to pay attention to steps and such. What can we say. It is always the fault of something or someone other than ourselves.

Glad we got on the same page. Many feel that West made BSA work because he organized it and also was lawyer that worked to overcome early issues. Since he was an orphan and had had a really hard upbringing, he brought his perspecitves as a boy to the work as well, championing youth in the early days. He worked with Teddy Roosevelt to bring some protection to children in the workplace, among other things. But he also was a taskmaster, and he clashed with both Seton and Beard in the earlier developmental period, though they found a way to compromise much of the time. Oh that our clown Congress might do that. Sorry if I may have come across as grumpy; I can do that. And being old is not an excuse. After all, that would be non Scouting.

Yep, those dim ages. When I tell scouts I never did an Eagle project they look at me funny. At least they had changed Bird Study to Nature on the list. We had these small groups that we had to choose from, along with the actual required ones. I have to say, that group concept made you have a broader exposure to various subjects. Kind of like general education that was once required to graduate college. Not sure that is the case now, but that was what I mostly took my first two years of college. And it introduced me to a new face of music and art, which was good. Understanding classical concepts has made me truly apprciate music in general, as it is a base for everything really. And a broad knowledge is useful in life.

If he was able to complete the second class he likely just needs to practice and maybe learn side and breast strokes. Many youth tend to think that the crawl is the only stroke to use, but the test does not say to use the crawl, only to use a strong stroke for the seventy-five yards, and then a resting backstorke, which would normally be the elementary backstroke. Defining strong may be an issue, but it is easier to master a breast of side stroke for a strong forward movement than the crawl in regard to energy, as they both allow a glide, especially if done properly. As far as simply getting practice, I would encourage you to perhaps try to find a local place with a smaller pool, but one that would allow practice at shorter distances, such as smalle swim clubs or even a backyard pool. The location does not need to be a full sized pool; and also a properly vetted lake, river, or even the ocean can work, though ocean would need to be in a restricted area as is set up at some camps. As I got older, I found that the side and breast strokes were better for me as they did not require the energy, as I noted, just good stroke technique. Good luck, and remember he will not need to pass the Merit Badge. On the other hand, he might care to work on it and do the MB. I had a scout years ago that struggled with the swim requirements, finally learning the elementary back stroke well, and simply battling through the minimum First Class stuff when he was old enough to sturggle through it minimally. It was not pretty, but he did it. Funny thing about him was he actually did the mile swim, completely on his back with the elementary stroke. And he later became an Army Ranger. When I asked him how that hap;pened, he said it was brute strength, not stroke quality.

Of course I refer to the tenets of BSA; that is the whole point of the West quote. He was speaking of the society at the time of the quote, which as it see also was not as civil as most of us would feel is to be striven. The tenets are the Oath, The Law, The Motto, and the Slogan, as well as later, after the time of this article/quote, the Outdoor Code. These make up the foundation of Scouting, and are the major factors in judging Scout Spirit. I truly do not understand your confusion over West. He was the head of BSA for decades and is considered one of the primary men in the history of BSA. James E. West, Chief Scout Executive, lawyer that worked for the improvement of life for youth, including those outside of BSA. As far as the Klan is concerned, I only see it as a point of reference in the quote as to what is not in tune with civil society. Have you read any of the history of BSA? If not, it might help a bit to do so. This is the best I can do to clarify this for you. Society would work more smoothly with the concept embraced by Scout Spirit. West was speaking to that, and the Klan had nothing directly to do with it, but they were a major problem at the period from from which this is taken, and not just to do with conflict with some religious beliefs of the time. Hopefully it is now a little clearer than basic mud.

Okay. We might agree that the basic tenets are something current, and past society might find or have found helpful. KKK is not a group that should be lionized, for sure. And religion is personal and BSA suggests we accept that individuality. It is all ambiguous and likely should remain a family element, ?. No proof, obviously, but I suspect Mr. West would have been alarmed at some things that have transpired since his death. Just the same, if we can keep the focus, it is a worthwhile effort on our parts I believe. I am old and need a nap.

The reason I posted it had nothing to do with Catholocim or the KIan. It has all to do with the fact that even at the time West recogized that the larger society might benefit from the concept of aceptance of thers. My interpretation, and my current feeling that our society today would do well to adhere to the tenets of the Scouting program. Other than noting that there are Catholic Scouts and so on, I do not see what you speak of, and he does not only mention Catholics. ??? I have not been able to locate the larger article, but perhaps someone might, or I still may if my eyes will cooperate with small copies and such.

I fail to see anything in the quote regarding Mr. West and the Klan. He is simply suggesting that people might consider the last part of the explanation of the 12th point; Be tolerant of other beliefs. How do we get to something negative about BSA, West, and so on?

Hopefully someone here can clarify or update. As I noted, itemizing no longer is viable for me at my age. So, maybe it has changed, or the data is not clear.

As far as I am aware, uniforms for adult volunteers are still tax deductible if you itemize; keep receipts and be reasonable. Not sure about the youth uniforms, have to check on that. But do not believe they are, thouogh maybe in some instances. Similarly, properly receipted gas and vehicle wear is deductible, and a milage count is still able to be listed at whatever the current cents per mile is; again, be able to verify in some manner. For example, when I still had enough info to itemize, I had determined the milage to our meeting place and the scout office and kept a roough record of how many trips. Ten miles rt to the meeting times usually about 25 times with meetings and outings and service. Twenty rt to the office, twice a month on averrage. Trips depended on whether scouts chipped in some way which often occurred at parent insistence on longer trips. If not, then again the map milage was the figure. Gear is a bit more unclear, though I suspect some may fall into the catgory, especially if donated to the unit. Adults also can deduct reasonable lost income if they go to camp as a leader, and also any training like Woodbadge. Online not deductible, only ones that are a drive to and from, and maybe meals if not fed. I also deducted the cost of recognition events at half the cost if it was a dinner of some sort.

Over time I have sat on one or two boards where similar circumstances brought the youth not attired as we prefer. But, in our district we would never not do the board. Most of the time it was due to an adult issue, or uncooperative coaches, sadly. The kind that give ultimatums. Another was he was on a dinner break from his employment. But, since it is the youth we are evaluating, not his attire, it should not matter. And often, these small glitches can lead to more open communication.

While a good and sharp uniform is an ideal for which to reach, it is NOT a requirment of BSA, and never has been. It is a tool, and surely should never become a barrier to the program, whether due to financial issues or simply youthful rebellion. Troops can determine their own uniform standard, but it is only that, and not an absolute. Example is important, but so is demonstrating that it is the program and its tenets that are foremost. On the other hand, whatever they do wear, they need to be neat and clean at a minimum unless they are doing something that precludes that. To ostracize a youth for wearing a soiled uniform, whether what we call class 2, or class 1 should not occur. When we make the wrong things paramount, we lose part of the purpose and aim. That is what I have seen in close to sixty years, and I have never forgotten how B.P. III, who I met at the rededication of Mount Baden Powell, said that my rag tag group, in as complete a uniform as we were able to get them in that fit, but there, clean and neat. He lloked at the groups before him and asked which ones was I connected to. They were being boys, but not overly so, and they were not disrespectful, but maybe a little rowdy. Another group was in perfect currrent uniforms and looked as if they were not getting any fun out of being there, even though they could have been a military unit. When I told B.P. III which were ours, he said his grandfather would likely have felt ours were more scoutlike. Balance and common sense, always keeping the youth as the focus, but in a positive way. JMHO as always.

"How can the "positive vibes" be monetized?" Depends on your perspective I guess. Short sighted or myopitic people may think as you suggest, but aware individuals likely see the good will of the image and action as putting that needed positive element in the minds of others. And so, when a Scouting fundraiser shows up in their pervue, they respond based on that. Tunnel vision is a major reason for the many messes in this country, in my view. Then, as often noted, what would I know?

In the past few days we have now had two So Cal TV stations show Scouting's true worth and image. KTLA had a cast member that shared his Philmont experience on their station. Now ABC ran this. https://abc7.com/abc7-salutes-monrovia-canyon-park-boy-scout-troop-66-california/13447126/ These are the types of things we should be doing to fix our image. And, it should be local first, as they have the details and should know where to go. And, meanwhile, National might work on regular, but not exhaustive shares in well placed spots. Most of us know that it was often the positive vibes from local press that made many of us want to be in Scouting, as well as the excitement that was offered in a less overloaded atmosphere of things to do for excitment, fun, and attention.

While this thread is worth reviewing, I have to say I continue to somehow be put off by the question about any "rumors". Am not sure that we want to encourage that, as too often it becomes a problem. Old guy being picky (?).

We just had a weekend group badge event, and from what the conselors told me, the youth were not concerned, and even had some serious comments. Most importantly, I am noting that my own annoyance, while still there for the reason I have previously noted, is likely MY annoyance and that I very well may have short changed the youth and their understanding. An occurrence we adults may allow too often. Yes, the tenets covered this, but the modern clarifications of broader accpetance may be important to discuss. Do we need the MB; I still do not believe so, but it is now here, and it fills a place in the chaotic new world.

It is sad that so few keep at it. Of particular significance, from what I have read/heard, there is a serious desire of Veteran Funeral groups to have real buglers for burials. While recorded is nice, the presence in a sharp uniform of the actual bugler, standing straight like a Rockwell image does a lot for ceremony and memories. At least that is how it is for me. Our troop bugler just graduated, and he may soon join the service. But he has always enjoyed that special stance of a bugle to lips while standing tall.

While it would be interesting to hear some other brass instruments doing the calls, I feel it leans towards the three or four noted, with an actual bugle being number one. I know that our bugler can do miracles with his lips on the bugle, sounding better than someone using a valved instrument. At our camp they have done taps with bugle, trumpet, and trombone together in echoed harmonies. Haunting, but the pure bugle sound is still the best for me. Have also heard a guy with a bagpipe do taps; interesting sound.

You are right, and I have obviously made a poor comparison. WF withdrew support at the advent of Dale, not at the change in the BSA stance. So, it is not contradicory. I stand corrected and hope the moderators may simply delete this, or seal it. Thank you.