skeptic

While I have no specific proof, I have been led to believe that BSA has suggested a merger with GS a couple of times, but been rebuffed by the national organization. In our area, there have been a number of GS troops that would have gladly joined with a same age BS group if they could. That also goes for the girls in the 11-14 age group; they would join BS if they were allowed, but have no interest in the GS because, for the most part, it is too focused on home and craft stuff. Personally, as long as you have the male/female leadership needed, I would not see it as a problem. I know the two or three times we have camped in proximity to GS groups over the years and had interaction with a campfire and so on the boys were far better behaved, and the girls were not intimidated nearly as much as the boys.

Since there seems to be so many with ideas as to why Eagle is not what it once was, lets have different levels. Perhaps: Basic requirements: 21 merit badges. Cooking required, but variants for level of Eagle. Still require basics, e.g. first aid, swimming or alternates, lifesaving or emergency prep, 3 citizenships, personal management. Personal fitness would have options to fit the level. URBAN EAGLE: No outdoor requirements, but more focus on everything urban. Would require learning to cook, but only in a kitchen. Project would be city focused. PF option would be very minimal. Would need to earn one badge from either public health, safety, or fire safety, sort of like the old groupings from the 50's.. New mb for cell phone communications required, or optionally, computers. CAMP EAGLE: All of Urban Eagle requirements, plus outdoor requirements that could be gotten in drive-in or summer camp settings. Charcoal cooking or large gas stoves for the cooking requirement in addition to above. Could sleep in cabins, or pre-pitched tents. Would earn a special "drive-in camping" merit badge with a car and tent; would need 20 nights, but include all summer camp. Project could be urban or other. PF option would be moderate. WILDERNESS EAGLE: All the previous two plus: Camping only in back country settings. Cooking with backpack stoves or wilderness acceptable fires only. Backpacking, pioneering, wilderness survival, and orienteering (with GPS inclusion with basic) all required. Project would be in the wilderness. All of the above, plus camping would be only in tents carried and pitched by themselves; and would be 25 nights, with only one long-term camp allowed. Back country first aid would be a requirement. PF would be strenuous. WILDERNESS EAGLE w/CROSSED PADDLES: Same as Wilderness Eagle, but also require canoeing, and whitewater merit badges. Project would focus on wild rivers, or back country lakes. So, would that make most people happy??? LOL

BadenP: For someone who is so out spoken about things and the honor of scouting, you surely are not setting a very good example. We all have issues with likely many things, and even perhaps a number of people in the program. But your strident attacks are becoming, at least to me, a bit tired. You do not like Mr. Mazzuca; that is your right. But your recent comments are bordering on slander. Perhaps it is time for you to consider your recent posts from a distance, and maybe tone things down a bit. And, who knows, maybe someone else even agrees with me. And just so you know, I too am disappointed in some aspects of the uniform, and even more burned at the increases in prices during such a serious economic downturn. I am also somewhat confused as to why a letter to Mr. Mazzuca has gone without any kind of response from him or his staff. But that is no reason to malign the man. I hope that perhaps more positive will evolve; that some positive changes will be forthcoming as we progress. JMHO

Here is a more responsible story from the Durango Herald. It does not sensationalize the story, nor mislead people with an erroneous headline. http://www.durangoherald.com/sections/News/2009/07/24/Suspect_in_court_for_child_sex_sting/

Actually, an issue could come up if for some reason there were not enough mb's listed for Star of Life with the proper dates that precede the BOR. Say it shows only 5 badges before the Star date, or only 10 before Life. Then he did not meet those requirements according to the data given. So dates earned are very important prior to Eagle.

Same flap never would fly; too many "radical collectors". How would they survive?

Never even seen these; but I would agree that the universal ribbon arrow is all you need.

More hours in the day.

Good advice all around; clean, neat, and accurate depiction of your record within the bounds of the insignia guide. I personally do not feel the option noted by John in K.C. is appropriate. An Eagle board is not an OA event, so the sash is not relevant. The merit badge sash is a must, in my opinion. Good luck.

In August, we will be having an Eagle ceremony in our troop. As we were leaving for camp, the young man's mother told me about "her" letter requests. Apparently, she sent letters to everyone on the relatively long list gleaned from the web. She capped that with, "I even sent one to the Pope". Now, that is great, but they are Baptist. Am I the only one who often wonders how much these letters mean to the young man himself? In this case, at least at the moment, he could care less if he even has a ceremony. While it is great to have these things, would not a few from truly meaningful individuals be more appropriate? It simply seems to me that too much is made of obtaining form letters, for the most part, from important (?)or distinguished people and organizations. What think others here?

Yep; junior college straight out of high school, and had to live away because I was from the middle of the desert. Barely a C average, 2.01 for 60 units after being near top of HS class. Went in service and got out at 25 with G.I. Bill and back to college. Dean's list and B average overall. Grad school after 2 more years, married, full time job, and still a 3.75. Maturity and responsibility seems to have made a difference, at least in my case. Have seen far too many drop out of college early because they were just not ready. Our school counselors might be wise to not push some to hard too soon. It seldom hurts a just out of school teen to work for a living at a menial job. Often, it will focus them in the long run. JMHO

Just a thought: How many within that huge increase would have been better served to have been guided into a trade or other occupational training? It seems to me that we put far too much emphasis on "everyone" going to college. Reality is that many do not want to, are not really able to succeed, and so waste money and time which could have given us more tradesmen, an area in which we are critically short. JMHO

Lisa; You hit the nail pretty squarely. In Ca, the initiative process has severely damaged things too, as many of them were passed without thinking about how they would be paid. Of course, we also have more severe problems with illegal immigrants than much of the country, in that many of our laws allow them to receive services, even though they are here illegally. While most people understand that they do pay some taxes, they do not feel that offsets the cost of the services. There are no easy answers. But somehow we need to find solutions, or we will definitely find ourselves truly on a par with many less fortunate areas of the world. Obviously, some part of this will mean accepting reality.

Don't they have a device that jams signals? I read about some restaurants that were using them. That would be an easy fix I would think.

DesertRat; I got back into the program in Spring, 1976 and was quite surprised at the materials I found. Fortunately, I was in the Topanga District of the old GWC in the San Fernando Valley, and did my introductory training with the infamous Patrones, who were old school for sure. When I went to Philmont for commissioner training in 77, the talk was all about the loss of traditional scouters and the start of the change back to "real" scouting. But I was really glad to see the new handbook that year. I remember getting a free copy that spring given by a scouter there in the Valley to all the active leaders and commissioners. Still have that copy in my collection with the dedication sheet inside.

Lisabob; While it is still nascent, and a long shot, I will not be overly surprised if the drive for a rewritten constitution comes to fruition. Even though so many no longer vote, they might still choose to completely redo the whole governing structure. A few other things that could happen, at least on paper, would be limiting pay to all politicians, taking away perks such as cars and per diem for those earning over a certain amount, and some kind of control on judges that make politically skewed decisions against the will of the people and not based on solid law. As long as the proposition apparatus is in effect, almost anything that takes a club to the so called "governing body" will pass, as people are simply tired of the "business as usual" attitude. I am far more fortunate than many, mostly due to being raised by parents and grand parents that lived through the depression and WWII. Our condo is paid for, and I have a small house in the desert as well. But the next few generations are going to have to relive much of what my parents and grandparents did I am afraid. On the other hand, it could be a major factor in bringing families back together, due to necessity. Time will tell.

We brought it on ourselves. Hardly anybody is willing to look past the next moment in time and make needed adjustments for the future. I have it, let me spend it. In today's recession, those who have been prudent are okay, though perhaps a bit leaner; most have problems due to their poor decisions and blinders. Our state governments are just the same, or worse. In California, Grey Davis spent the surplus rather than save it for a rainy day. Now the monsoon has hit and guess what, the floods are inundating the state economy and its population. Still, the idiots in the capitol are playing "politics". And in the last election, the turnout was so low that it was almost non-existent in some areas. Either people just choose not to be involved, the "someone else will take care of it" syndrome, they somehow feel "not voting" is a slap at the political machines, or they simply do not understand and so don't. Yet, most of the most upset are in the "did not vote" category. Economically, California has already dropped into the ocean. I am simply waiting for it to start drifting towards Asia, since they own half the debt. We keep waiting for the "person on a white horse". But we control the stable, and we need to MUCK IT OUT!

Actually Eamonn, that is exactly what happened here when the infamous "Inner City" program was put in place that pretty much put the "outing" out on the periphery of the program. From what I have seen in historical material, that is when they lost the most "old time" scouters; and many never returned even when much was put back in place, either because they "were" old to start with and disappeared, or they were so upset they simply chose not to. And, I think that would happen again if they decided to go that far overboard. Anyone who looks at the successful troops can immediately see that they are active "outdoors". While many are true high adventure groups, many simply base camp and do fun activities from there. But, they are out and doing things in the natural environment and away from the worst of civilization. And the boys love it, or they leave. Frankly, the idea that we can keep them all is silly. Some scout age boys simply will never take to the outdoors, for who knows why for sure. Just my personal observation.

"A Scout is Hungry"; he eats when he can, all he can, and whatever he can. The 13th point dates at least back to the 50's, and likely much farther.

Merlyn: So, you have made our point; "YOU CANNOT prove God exists, but you also CANNOT PROVE God does not exist". Perhaps he/she is simply out in the universe riding the unicorn.

Once again, we need to reintroduce "Mr. Common Sense". What makes so many of us think that we are qualified just because we did it, or read about it, or took a beginning course, then participated with a certified group leader? I took "climb on safety" at camp a couple of years ago. So, technically I should be able to lead a climbing outing; right? Wrong! I may know the basic precautions, but I am not really qualified and would not do it unless I had someone truly certified to do the real experience. I have been swimming all my life and earned the life-saving merit badge. Have taken CPR numerous times, as well as first aide courses. In an emergency I know more or less what to do. Am I qualified to teach swimming or life-saving or first aide and CPR; not really, though I could assist. Point being, we need to not let that "little bit of knowledge" cloud our "common sense" judgment as to our qualifications for many activities. Safety is, or should be the absolute qualifier. If that means not going because we have not found the truly able person to do it, then so be it. JMO

The percentages have been closer to these reported now for a while from my perception. They just had not been accurately quoted, either due to lack of awareness or because 1-2 percent sounds better. It is higher, I feel, because there is more emphasis put on it in many troops, and also it still has a reputation of high achievement and capability. In some respects, many of today's Eagles may very well be more rounded and of higher achievement than those of the pre project days. The project is overall a big challenge. Scouting skills on the other hand likely are less strong in many cases due to the current programs reduced emphasis on not only learning them, but also retaining them. Also, for those that do get Eagle, there is likely a higher percentage of questionable achievers due to "Eagle factories", poor oversight in some units, and too much parental involvement in some cases. One of the reasons fewer scouts likely earned Eagle in the earlier time was that achieving First Class was considered to be the main goal. Remember, they did not even register boys as Star, Life, or Eagle until after WWII or during perhaps. They were listed as 1st Class with merit badges. I have had the privilege to set on quite a few boards, and most have been well qualified, and a few either barely met the minimum and a few were so over the top that you wondered if they ever were a kid. Possibly the best reflection will be what becomes of the more recent generation of Eagles, and whether the ideals, skills, and pride will be something which they wish to perpetuate in the future. JMHO

Are we seriously missing a major part of this? In our council, if it even gets to them, they lean over backwards to avoid any friction or unhappy scouts or parents. Very odd indeed, based of course on the the info' which we have been given.

How things change with the times. As Eamonn says, we go looking for issues where there like are none. We are a society that glorifies certain elements of physical features and considers sexuality okay in the public, yet we are prudes in so many ways. Our schools no longer require showers after P.E. in the schools, as public showering "might" cause someone embarrassment or occasional teasing or taunting. Many gyms and pools have separate areas for youth and adults for similar reasons; or completely separate times. Most of us over 40 or 50 grew up okay while sharing the locker rooms and even occasionally skinny-dipping. There are photos of scouts swimming in the teens that "show nothing"; but they are obviously in the buff. Keep it out of common view and use common sense. This should apply to just about anything that could pertain to personal privacy. It only becomes an issue if you make it one somehow.

Thinly Read: Earning Eagle Scout rank says much Submitted by SHNS on Wed, 06/03/2009 - 12:51. * By BEN GRABOW, Scripps Howard News Service * lifestyle One way or another, people eventually find out you used to be a Boy Scout. Maybe you show a preternatural ability for complicated knots. Or maybe you can't resist the urge to Do a Good Turn Daily. But once people find out, if they have any knowledge of the scouting enterprise, they'll always have the same question. Everyone wants to know if you earned your Eagle. It's an oft-touted statistic that only 2 percent of all Boy Scouts make it to the Eagle rank. It's the pinnacle of the scouting world and it holds a certain cachet for everyone else, from the overall community to the corporate workplace. This prestige may seem strange to some and downright surprising to those who were Scouts themselves. Especially those, like me, whose scouting experience involved finding new and exciting ways to set fire to ourselves and to others. Using propellants from bug spray to powdered coffee creamer (you read that right, and don't try it at home), my less-advancement-minded friends and I made weekly Scout meetings a trial for our long-suffering adult supervisors. Though many of these friends gradually drifted away, I stuck with scouting. I stuck with it for the backpacking, the caving and various other pursuits unavailable to the average suburbanite. I stuck with it all the way through high school, earning ranks and Merit Badges in spite of myself. But the Eagle rank required more than just showing up. In addition to a set amount of Merit Badges, the Eagle requires an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. This is something you do to better your community, from painting a building to organizing a fund-raiser. It's a volunteer effort requiring a team of other Scouts and a great deal of time. According to one scouting parent, there are three things that keep an average teen-ager from his Eagle Project -- cash, cars and (ahem) chicks. The Eagle must be earned before a Scout's 18th birthday. And, at 17, a good job, access to a vehicle and a steady girlfriend hold far more sway than another patch on a uniform you'd never wear in public. In that way, my story is similar to those of all other Scouts who got right up to it and never earned the Eagle. By the summer that I was 17, I was more interested in dating than painting an outbuilding. But 10 years since that summer, I think I understand the value of that final patch. To earn your Eagle requires planning, some sacrifice of your free time and, above all else, commitment. At 17 (or younger), you have to commit a significant amount of time and effort to one thing that is not a car, a job or a girl. There are not many teen-age boys who are willing to do this. These days, there are not many grown men who are willing to do this. I myself didn't get around to this level of maturity until my mid-20s. To earn your Eagle is to show your community, your family or even a prospective employer that, as a teen-ager, you were already prepared to make a serious commitment to your future. One way or another, people will find out you were a Boy Scout. And for those 2 percent, it means more than a knack with knots. (Ben Grabow writes for the young, the urban and the easily amused. Contact him at thinlyread(at)gmail.com.) (Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, http://www.scrippsnews.com)