skeptic

From my eavesdropping on kids in schools and on overnights, it has been apparent to me that the very large majority of boys are still VERY uncomfortable with the idea of being gay, or being around them. Their responses are generally to avoid, but occasionally overt physical responses that are added problems. They often can talk about fairness and acceptance, but when actually confronted they react the opposite. And this would also be the case with many parents who give vocal support for acceptance in BSA, but would NEVER allow their son to be involved should it become a reality. Much of this is due to issues that GaHillBilly points out. This simply is reality when a very large majority of people are not open to a certain idea or style of living. They can verbally be accepting, even treat people with respect as long as it does not seem to actually become a personal thing. Once it does become personal in some manner, they will react far differently. So, we would likely see BSA fairly quickly be decimated. I realize there are a few on these boards that will NEVER face these realities, as to them, everyone should have the right to do whatever they want, no matter how if effects the large majority. Just observations and opinion.

Ken; It is good that your son and friends find these things interesting. I agree that we can keep the "outing in scouting", and still embrace new technology and ideas. Much of the newer tech stuff does work for many things in the outdoors. It is finding the balance that is so hard much of the time. A few years back, I was completely against anything electronic on outings. Now, on rides, they keep me sane, as many simply become immersed in their games or music devices. But, a few, always continue to be involved in the real world, actually seeing things along the route and talking to me. At camp, I can see how some of these devices can be of use. Someone a while back, on one of these boards, noted that if we give them firm, specific expectations regarding the devices, then "trust them", few will break that trust. If someone does, we simply have an opportunity to discuss scout spirit. We do though need to still make them understand that the basic skills still have a place, and they need to know them should the batteries fail, or the reception is bad or non-existent. One of the earliest skills in scouting was building a fire. But, there was never a requirement it be done without matches. They accepted that matches were a tool, and they were okay. They did have to do it with no more than two. The other fire making skills were taught and often were centers of challenges, but the basic requirement was still matches. So, we find ways, and continue to get them to view the world outside the mundane and familiar. Yours in Scouting,

Listened to the centennial broadcast at 7PM Central. It was interesting, but pretty much just repeated info already available on the web with a bit of effort. They touched on upcoming plans for making the program more palatable, the new Hispanic outreach tests, and efforts to bring more technology into use without taking the outdoors out. The short video at the end from the centennial tour that starts in Pasadena was interesting. It was hosted by one of the Eagle Scouts from the survivor program. They also discussed the new Jamboree site in more detail than I had seen as yet. The entire half hour will be up on the web within a day or two, and they will supposedly answer submitted questions sent by viewers who registered earlier as planning to view. They indicated that they received about 6,000, though many were similar. Anyone else listen in?

While we should always be disappointed when individuals, both adults and young people, sometimes make bad decisions, even if they "are" scouts. On the other hand, it simply is reflective of the fact that scouts are still simply kids. The perception that they will not make poor choices is a reaction to the public image that was developed over the past century. And, stats seem to support the idea that scouts who have more than a fleeting participation "do" have fewer negative situations in their lives than those that have not. Maybe the fact that the image is still in play is a good thing. Certainly the sarcastic comments, such as "he is such a boy scout", are actually complimentary. Even back in 1960, the BSA quietly sent a number of scouts and leaders home from the NJ in Colorado Springs due to being caught with prostitutes. Police arrested hundreds of them at the Jamboree. Temptation and immaturity are part of growing up; and how young people deal with it says a lot about them and their adult guidance. So, this really should have little effect on BSA, as they did what they could it would seem. Now, if it turns out that this had been going on for a long time and it was known by the local scout leaders with nothing being done, then it could have fallout. That does not appear to be the case.

Would suggest that the moderators move this to the "Political" forum, as it will likely get a lot of that type of comment and opinion. Thanks.

My problem is that even with email, they hardly ever respond. Most admit to seldom checking mail; and, as noted, many parents simply forget, or do not feel it necessary to pass on much of the time. They too are bad about even looking at the email. Sometimes wonder how they ever get by if they never read stuff.

It all depends on of whom you are asking the questions, and what the questions really are. I would suspect that a simple query to most people as to whether or not medical care in the country needs to be improved, especially insurance, you would get a yes in a very large percentage. But, if you ask about the current bill, your results will be a lot different. The real problem is that most of the congress critters growling and whining about how bad it is are not offering much in the way of alternatives. Even their constituents would likely be in the "something needs to be done" category. So, whatever happens with this bill, hopefully they will not simply forget it should nothing come of it as it is now. Maybe I am missing something; but I think I am close to the mark here.

Was at our local office this afternoon and saw a new batch of Eagle Certificates. There is now no signature of the Honorary President at all. It is simply not there anymore. Earlier this year, they still had Bush on it; so guess they were using the older ones up. The cert itself actually looked pretty good, as did the latest card version. So, is this the latest trend; or is it simply a stop gap, and the Honorary spot will be returned at a later date?

How about National springing for it as an east coast urban center? With proper development, it could become a gem in their National camping possibilities. Imagine being able to develop a tour of the surrounding area for your troop while not spending a small fortune for a place to stay in the city. This could be offered for international units too. Depending on size, the council trying to sell could also instead, build their own office there with the cost of rent in the Empire State Building. If they already have the land, the cost of construction would be absorbed by the money saved on rent. Of course, lots of things I have no knowledge of regarding access and so on.

Eamonn; While I understand your comment about believing we failed certain kids, we do not know for sure what impact even a short span of involvement has on these boys. Many adults with whom I have spoken when in a public place in uniform, such as a scouting display, or selling popcorn, have spoken fondly of their "short" time in the program, and how that experience had an effect on their later life. Surely, we lose far too many early, but every one we win, even if we do not know, is worth the efforts. Personally, I have had 2 young men come up to me as young adults and thank me for their time in our unit, and the direction we were able to give them. One young man specifically noted that he found the Oath and Law a worthwhile aide to redirecting himself after falling into the abyss of drugs. He was very proud to have been "clean" for a number of years at that point. So, we never really know if we lost them completely, or simply gave them something to ponder as they get older.

This is from the National Site some time back. There is also another on-line source I have seen, but have to track it down again. July 31 *The Scout Oath . . . On my honor I will do my best; To do my duty to God and my country; and To obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. This date celebrates the founding of Americas first "Negro Boy Scout" troop in 1911. Initially started in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, opposition was encountered immediately, but troops continued to meet in increasing numbers. In 1916, the first official Council-promoted Negro Troop 75 in Louisville, Kentucky. By the next year there were four official Black troops in the area. By 1926 there were 248 all-Black troops, with a total of 4,923 Black scouts and within ten years there was only one Council in the entire South that refused to accept any Black troops. During this time as more troops started up, the Inter-racial Committee was established in January of 1927, with Stanley Harris as its leader. Also as part of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) Inter-racial Service was "Program Outreach," a program that combined racial minorities with rural, poor, and handicapped boys. These programs were often ineffective, especially with immigrants who feared the BSA as a means to recruit for the Army. Another problem with Program Outreach was that it often didn't distinguish between the boys it viewed as "less chance" and those who were simply not white. For example, their reports states that about the Scouts in the Program who were considered, "Feeble-minded, Delinquency Areas, Orphanages, and Settlements." Many of the Scouts helped in these groups, who were considered "Delinquent Areas," were Blacks, who were measured as "Special Troops." Instead of embracing Black Scouting, the BSA systematically categorized Blacks. It brought a literal meaning to "racial handicap," as the color of their skin was why they were considered "special." Scouting for minorities wasn't just confined to cities, Scouting in rural areas were also common. One of these programs was called "railroad scouting," where employees of the BSA would ride trains throughout the rural South, stopping at every town on the way to distribute information and encourage the formation of troops. This policy originated to cut down on railroad vandalism, and the BSA realized it was a great way to promote their organization. Also Native Americans were a large portion of the minority Scouts, and lived in settlements in rural areas. With the help of these programs, the two Southern Regions, Region V in Memphis and Region VI in Atlanta, had growth rates of 28.2% and 47.9%, respectively. With the terrible economic conditions in the South during the first half of the 20th century, and the fact that in 1937, 57.9% of Black Scouts were from these two regions. By the 1960's, with the industrialization of the South, the BSA shifted more towards urban expansion and improvement. In 1961 the Inter-Racial Service turned into the Urban Relationship Service, and added inner-city children of all races. William Murray, author of History of the Boy Scouts wrote, "Negro lads in the South and in the northern industrial centers were somewhat out of the stream of American boy life and needed special aid." The Inner-City Rural Program was also developed to expose rural Scouts to the city and vice versa, but was small in scope. Programs targeting gangs were unexpectedly successful, and in many cities as many as 25% of boys living in housing projects were enrolled in the Scouts, many former gang members. In the South, with the "separate but equal" mindset of the times, Black troops were not treated equally. They were often not allowed to wear scout uniforms, and had exceedingly smaller budgets to work with and insufficient facilities. The BSA on a national level was often defensive about their stance on segregation. "The Boy Scouts of America] never drew the color line, but the movement stayed in step with the prevailing mores." Even so, there was only one integrated troop before 1954 in the Deep South compared to the frequent occurrence of integration in the North. Also the Scouts in the South did not support social agencies that were allies of the BSA. The YMCA was historically one of the BSA's strongest supporters, but in Richmond, Virginia, Blacks were not allowed to use the Y's facilities to earn merit badges, specifically for swimming. While nationally the BSA has a large endowment (approximately 2.6 billion dollars), local councils have to raise money on their own. BSA is not a non-profit organization, and if local councils had pushed for integrated troops, it would not have gone over well with the general public, and it would be difficult for them to raise money. It would have been dangerous, because the Ku Klux Klan had strongly denounced the Scouts for even having segregated Black troops. They claimed the BSA was a puppet of the Catholic Church, and it was not unheard of for Scout Jamborees and rallies to be broken up, often violently, by the Klan. After the Civil Rights Act, slowly, troops began to integrate throughout the nation, even in the South. Currently several troops remain all Black. After integration, many segregated Black organizations, especially Churches, remained segregated, not by law but by choice. It provided a heightened sense of community and unity that complemented their internal needs. If they made it this far under such extreme oppression, why should they happily submit themselves to white Churches and social clubs? Since these organizations sponsored such a large number of Scout troops, many remained all Black by choice. In 1974, after fifty-three years of segregation, the Old Hickory Council (North Carolina) and BSA councils throughout the South started to integrate troops. As an organization dedicated to developing morally strong and virtuous men out of boys, the BSA stresses the importance of understanding what it means to be a Scout. When applying for the Eagle Scout Award, the highest rank in Scouting, applicants must submit an essay along with documentation of their earned merit badges. In the essays, Scouts are asked, "In your own words, describe what it would mean to you to become an Eagle Scout." Essay lengths differ greatly, from one sentence to four handwritten pages. Generally, Eagle Award applicants write about what it has meant to work several years to receive this award, and what they plan on doing after the receive it. In the responses immediately following integration, different values and goals emerge based on race and oppression. One young man says, "When applying for a job or trying to enter college being an Eagle Scout is a great advantage." Being white in Winston-Salem, opportunities to go to college and to get a good job were there As a Black young person, such opportunities did not always exist, and instead of mentioning college and a job, there was a tendency to make more references to the army and military. Not necessarily saying outright that a future in the military is what they are striving for, but there are references like, "[if I get my Eagle Award] it will be like an army that had won a war, there will be great joy," and, "becoming an Eagle Scout is like being a Captain or lieutenant in an army, working towards the Generals position." Historically, the military has been one of the few ways Blacks achieved distinction and reverence. These youths had seen their fathers and uncles come back from World War II and the Korean War, with medals and the help of the G.I. Bill. Many saw this as their only way to eventually get into college or have a good career. With the aid of the civil rights movement, Black Scouts saw the Eagle Award is a further means of proving their dignity and achievement. Blacks in the first half of the twentieth century were not allowed much dignity. America and the South, was set up to make sure this dignity was never achieved. Through Scouting, Black young people finally had something to be proud of, something that would make them, in at least one realm, equal or even superior to white children. It gave them a sense of identity that was lacking for centuries, they were no longer just "Boy," they were an Eagle Scout. Before de-segregation, in nearly all white Eagle Scout applications, the essays included references to leadership opportunities to come out of their Award. Leadership is mentioned much less often among the Black applicants, having not seen the same opportunities for leadership in their communities as they progressed through the Scouts. Another theme among the pre-civil rights applications was the frequent mentioning of God and Church in the white applications, compared to the Black applications. The white applications tended to connect God and Country together as an important trait of an Eagle Scout; example. "The Eagle award would show me that I have been doing my duty to God and my Country as a Scout." The Black Scouts did not mention citizenship nearly as often and usually in a secular manner. "I am an American on whom the future of this wonderful Country dependslearning to be of service to others." This distinction was due to the lack of citizenship experienced by Blacks as long as we've been in this country. It is telling that an organization like the Boy Scouts of America, dedicated from its inception to raising men of high moral strength and conviction, supported racism. But at the same time, on a national and local level, the Scouts did have certain leaders that pressed against the grain of society for racial change. In the end, though, our most valuable insight is into the minds of these young black men who wrote of an equal chance for distinction and success in their Eagle Award essays. This relatively small achievement may have helped and inspired them to push on in their fight for liberty. Contributing reference: Kurt Banas, Wake Forest University Winston-Salem, North Carolina

And really, why are any of these new requirements such an issue anyway. It is not like they are anything new particularly. A 2nd class must earn some money and save half is about the most difficult, and that is not overwhelming either. Explaining how you live up to 4 of the laws is really nothing more than having to be aware of what they are to start with. And teaching a skill using EDGE is pretty basic too. If a boy cannot cope with these, then we are doing something wrong. JMHO

Difficult subject, as there are many valid points on both sides of the discussion. While I have grown to feel having girls allowed is not only logical in many ways in today's society, I still feel there would need to be separation in the lower parts of the program, especially in the pubescent age group. The girls could still be part of the program, but simply do it in their own groups. Cubbing, as pointed out already, would likely be fine with either girl, boy, or coed dens, meeting separately except for pack activities. But I do not see 11-14 year old boys and girls mixing successfully for the full program benefit, so they would be better off with separate troops. So, a CO might have two units, one of girls and one of boys. Maybe they have inter charter competitions on occasion, as well as joint courts of honor and so on; but the week to week functions would be separate and allow the leadership to develop without the distraction of the opposite gender. This would still allow families to participate as a complete unit if they wanted, and also make the far superior program of BSA available to girls, which is the biggest reason they want to join anyway. The "be with the boys" part really does not come into serious effect until the Venture level years anyway. JMHO

Kahuna; Just acquired an addition to my Scouting Magazine assortment from June, 1930. The event is featured in this issue, including detailed info on trips and what to take. If you have access to that year, you should read it.

The Scouts as a "fix my kid" group is often an idea some parents have, especially a lot of lower income, single moms who are already severely stressed by adolescent boys. Lem, in "Follow Me Boys" sort of perpetuates that idea; but if you look closer, he too struggles, just as some of us have done. You are not always successful; but the ones you win are often rich in returns, both to the unit and yourself. I long ago determined I had to be as honest as possible with the mom, or occasional dad, who specifically came to me with the idea that somehow Scouts would solve their problems, but had little or no time to be involved (too often a real case in less well off homes). You need to tell them that it will not likely help if the boy resents it from the get go, has little or no familial support for the program, or has serious issues that require specialized treatment or training. And, as pointed out, most who still try end up disappearing from the program very quickly. Whatever we do, we need to not let these rare situations negatively impact the troop as a whole. If they come into the group and immediately stir up unrest and worse, the leaders and CO need to move to solve it sooner, than later. I learned the hard way years back when I just did not want to give up on a boy. It almost sunk the troop, and I did lose a few potentially great scouts. JMHO

So, I finally remembered the cliche' I wanted when is said "So, if this is to be taken as it seems, another "storm in a bucket"." I really intended to give away my age with the old saw "tempest in a teapot". Oh well. Back to fun and games. Have to prepare for a scout/webloes outing tomorrow. With luck I will have most of them actually show up.

Thanks for the kind words. Here is another view from the Union side. http://www.seiu.org/2009/11/of-course-seiu-supports-the-boy-scouts.php So, if this is to be taken as it seems, another "storm in a bucket".

Found myself getting really annoyed at our council office today. I went to pick up awards, including cards. We have currently a very small group, but have always been fairly small. When I looked for the cards, they were only available in sheets of 6. Now, merit badges will take care of themselves pretty easily, so sheets are not a poor option necessarily, as you will like use them fairly soon. But to make you buy 6 rank cards is simply annoying, though I realize the cost is fairly minimal, and hopefully you will eventually use them. On the other hand, for small groups such as ours, especially for higher ranks, it could take two or three years possibly. It is about an average of $7-$10 overage a year for us currently. Larger troops would do less. But nationwide, that means they are taking in a fairly good sum for unused materials, or ones that will not be used for a long time. Okay, now I have vented; feel a bit better. Trying not to let pettiness get in the way of the bigger picture. Old and grouchy

Well, now they made it to Fox and Hannity; guess the Union will really get verbally abused now. As always, way too much hype for something probably simply misunderstood. Oh well; as long as the scout is not held up on completion of his Eagle.

Ahh yes. The first place we went after 9/11 was Afghanistan. As pointed out by quite a few, this is where we should have put the emphasis period. If we had concentrated the force we wasted, and are wasting still, in Iraq in Afghanistan to start with, we likely not only would have dealt Al Qaida a fatal blow, but very well may have actually caught Bin Laden. And we also likely would have already finished the real job, and be far better off internationally and internally.

Perhaps you can answer the question I sent to him through his website, but which has yet to receive a response. Is this a new book, or an update of the original he wrote with another author in 1992? I have the original in my collection. Thanks.

The truly sad thing is that now that the trail is built, it will likely become overgrown and useless left to the maintenance of whichever government entity might be responsible. I cannot count how many Eagle projects have gone to pot, or even been dismantled because no one bothered to maintain them once they were done. Also have seen stupidity reign where approvals were gotten from one branch of government and then someone else, from an indirectly related agency said it was illegal or not to certain specs. Then they razed it, or threatened to fine someone. Reality is that many things we cherish as outdoor people would never be available if volunteers were not making it happen. Too many restrictions, regulations, and labor issues; and of course, never enough money for things such as this.

While the 50th anniversary was great, the first one was the best. But none of ours hold a candle to some of the ones issued by other countries.

I sub primarily for lower grades, and they always want to know how old I am. So, I put my birth year, or birthday on the board and tell them to figure it out, but don't guess. Of course immediately some yell out guesses, then one will come up with 65. They all look at me strangely, then someone says that's older than my grandma or something like that. Just makes you feel so out of date. Still, they generally are still so curious and malible at that age; much more enjoyable most of the time.

Gern: The governor still is supposed to adhere to the constituents, just through his particular body of representatives, who are supposed to represent the voters. So, not poppy-cock. Part of the problem is that we have had close to a hundred years of professional politicians who have let themselves be swayed more and more by lobbyists and other forms of money. It would not surprise me if less than 20% of our so called "representatives", state or federal, or even local, voted on the wants of their constituents.