skeptic

Basically, Scoutfish is simply pointing out the obvious again. Taxes, in some manner, are an integral part of life in this country, and most countries. We all pay them in some way, even those who try not to pay some. So, technically, he is pointing out; no one should be able to use any of the publicly supported facilities, nor should they be paid from public funds, if they have a belief in God. Now, of course this is over-projection of the intent by the anti-God, anti-religion groups; but it has some credence at its basic level. "WHERE DO! YOU DRAW THE LINE?" Should Scoutfish's in-laws, who worked for the government, not be paid if they believe in God? After all, the money comes from taxes that Merlyn paid, or someone similar to him. That, I think, is what Scoutfish is asking.

Scoutfish; You can give all the info' you choose on the term, but neither of the two will admit fitting any part of them. I sometimes wonder if they are not really two faces of a multi-personality and are simply baiting themselves. Just try to ignore them 99+% of the time, as they will not stop.

Mr. LeRoy: You know, there was a time when public entities were not afraid to represent basic, majority beliefs of their constituents and clients, because most recognized that was a reasonable thing to do. When the challenges began, then many various responses materialized. But, that has nothing to do with this suggestion by me. What I am saying is simply that those opposed to the idea of God in scouting need to recognize that this has "always" been one of the keystones of the program, even in the original version of B.P. So, please, stop trying to twist this into "your" narrow minded agenda. Thank you. I will now continue to ignore your incessant whining.

It seems to me that we need to quit lumping the God and Gay issues together; they are not the same. While there are similarities, one is literally based on views regarding physical characteristics and responses to life style choices. The other relates directly to a foundational tenet of Scouting, belief in a spiritual entity greater than oneself. As such, I fail to understand why it continues to be put in the same arena with the Gay issue. It IS something that should be accepted or rejected at the point of joining. If you cannot accept it, then the organization is not for you. On the other hand, much of the contention on Gay issues stems from the over the top, public view, of a small, but strident few, in the Gay community. This translates to a "lifestyle" in a lot of minds, and it is one that is not deemed acceptable to many. And while the issue may have many similarities to infidelity, free-style heterosexual life choices, and even drugs and alcohol to some extent, most individuals engaged in those types of life choices do not try to make it such a public thing. I suspect, as has been pointed out numerous times, that even many in the Gay community are often chagrined by the "over the top" displays of likely a small percentage of their communities. But, because it is so out spoken, and often outlandish, it really pushes buttons. So, maybe it is time for reasonable people to stop putting the two in the same basket. Just my views from having lived more years than many.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Perhaps someone has more background on Dale's ultimate decision to make a public challenge to the dismissal from BSA. I am aware of a number of incidents that have been pursued in court, some of which got tossed or settled without trial, that were obviously "coerced" by outside sources looking for viable "victims" to advance their agendas. So, I wonder if James Dale might have initially simply accepted the decision as part of life, and gone on without a challenge? Who pushed the issue at the start, really? And, after the final SCOTUS decision, has Dale accepted it, and moved on; or is he still involved in the continuing attack mode of current challengers? Just Curious if anyone has "factual" evidence one way or the other.

Reverence and some type of higher consciousness is a cornerstone of Scouting. If you cannot accept that premise, then you should not be part of the group. It is so tiresome that this simple "fact" seems to be ignored by so many here. Removing a cornerstone of a building will eventually lead to its collapse.

Guess I am ignorant of proper knot use for shoes, as I have never used a square or granny knot to tie them; or at least not on purpose. We were taught to use a slip knot, or bow knot, and if we could not tie it tightly enough, secure it with a second one. You just pull one strand to undo it. Not sure why you would want one there that would very possibly get too tight. Finding a way to make knots seem useful to kids today is difficult, as we use so many other types of attachment devices. A good example is the taut-line. They seem to not understand that the little tab device on the rope that stops back sliding can easily slip, or come off. But it takes a few extra seconds to actually tie something; and they do not want to take the extra time. Kind of like the shoes that are always coming undone. We are now encountering on occasion a bit of the same syndrome with compass work; many seem to think the GPS is the only thing they need, and that it is better. We all know, or should, that it is not only not always accurate, but sometimes simply does not work due to low power or blockage of signals. Always new challenges.

Agnosticism has never been grounds for questioning scouts regarding reference. An agnostic is simply not sure, but is searching for something greater than themselves. As such, they are not denying God's existence, only searching for how he/she fits into their beliefs comfortably. So, it makes sense that humanism would be listed as an acceptable belief in this training. The big controversy is the mistaken idea that somehow Scouting is based on a narrow, basically Christian foundation. And that has never been the case. Unfortunately, there have been some individuals on a national level who have misspoken regarding interpretation of God and reverence in the program; and they have abetted the people who so enjoy finding fault with Scouting for its spirituality tenet. Just my thoughts and opinion.

Beavah; Please consider revising your idea that scouting has a poor rep in regard to camping. I still do not know where you are getting that idea. Your earlier comments regarding it seemed to be based on a very small negative sample; and most of the posts in response seemed to negate that idea. Certainly in our part of the country, it is not the case. Quite the opposite. Just a thought. Thanks.(This message has been edited by skeptic)(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Two related comments. Over the long time I have been associated with our troop, I have had a number of individuals approach me for "service" by our troop at various events that were some sort of money raising activity for a club or other group; they sometimes said they would give us a "donation" afterwards. Most of these seemed to me simply an attempt to get the services free, or for little expense, rather than real "service", as the effort would have been like paying someone a dollar an hour or less; and I politely turned them down. A few years back, the huge "Day Fire" happened in the Los Padres Forest in Southern California. One major front was on the Ventura, Kern, L.A. counties border in the area of Lockwood Valley. The Forest Service used our scout camp as a base, and our reservoir as a water source for helicopters. The ranger, his wife, and a few available scouters helped coordinate things, and made sure the kitchen and other facilities were serviceable, as well as equipment on site. They paid for their food, and brought in most of their supplies, but we certainly did not charge them for the facility use, even though it meant the camp was closed to scout use for close to six weeks. That is service as it should be. I can also guarantee you that it enhanced the BSA standing in the eyes of the fire fighters and related services.

Great piece; thanks for posting the link.

Methodist have theirs the second Sunday of February as part of their standard calendar. So we have ours this weekend. Boys are greeters, then sit together; I have litergist duties.

While this is a great endeavor, I do not see how it is really an Eagle project. Eagle projects are not supposed to be done for the Scouts, but for community groups, schools, and so on. Maybe it is acceptable because it is public art???

Here in So Cal, it is also similar to the North's coverage. Just add in the requisite "flash flood warnings" and possible mud slides in the burn areas. Then they show the mud running down the same spot dozens of times on every station, and the few idiots who are dumb enough to attempt to do something stupid, like drive through two feet of water, or refuse to evacuate when the mud has already taken out a house a block away. The other weather thing that annoys me is that its wet, more later. Give the weather news and get on with other things. Don't give us bits and come on info, then make us wait for more info. And, maybe they could give us actual rain totals, if known. Also, don't keep showing the constant radar precip maps, unless they actually relate to real info'; and don't stand in front of the map and block the information, or pan through it so fast you can't really see it. Finally, don't make yourself look stupid by saying there will be "thunder showers", or there are "thunder showers". There is no such thing. They are thunder storms with rain showers. Rant off.

See the other thread in this section; exactly what this talks about. "L.A. Then and Now"; L.A. Times California Section

In the weekly article on L.A. history in the TIMES, they discuss a couple of groups of public debaters that were common in the L.A. in the first half of the 20th century. Of course they tended to be much like the discussions here a great deal of the time. I could not help but think of this series of threads when I read a quote from a 1935 TIMES columnist, Lee Shippey. He said; "when you know a thing, you may merely speak it, but when you are rather doubtful, you must assert it so loudly as to overwhelm all opposition". Seems somewhat apropos for here. ;-)}

Mentioned my concern to our scout exec today, and he told me that the man in charge at National of the entire event died unexpectedly late last year; and though the position is filled, it very well may have caused serious confusion and slow downs. Seems logical, but wish they would get it righted soon.

Pretty hefty prices though.

I AM BEGINNING TO HAVE SOME SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT MY ROLE IN THE JAMBO THIS SUMMER, AS I STILL HAVE HAD ALMOST NO CONTACT FROM ANYONE, OTHER THAN REMINDERS ABOUT PAYING, AND THE MEDICAL FORMS. AFTER SEARCHING, I WAS ABLE TO FINALLY HAVE A NOTE FROM THE PERSON IN CHARGE OF MY ASSIGNMENT; BUT STILL DO NOT HAVE A REPORT DATE, OR ANY SPECIAL UNIFORM AND EQUIPMENT INFO'. BASED ON WHAT IS POSTED HERE, AND THE LAST FEW WEEKS ESPECIALLY ON SCOUTS-L, THERE SEEMS TO BE A DISCONNECT ALMOST BETWEEN NATIONAL AND THE VOLUNTEERS; AT LEAST THOSE OF US ON THE OUTER PERIPHERY WITH NO EXTENDED CONTACTS. THIS IS WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS ON PURPOSE. I AM HOPING THAT "SOMEONE" FROM NATIONAL MAY ACTUALLY TAKE NOTE AND START THE WHEELS MOVING AGAIN. THE JAMBO SITE HAS HAD NO UPDATES SINCE LAST FALL, AND THERE HAVE SO FAR BEEN FEW OTHER SOURCES FROM THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE, BY THIS TIME, PUSHING TO HAVE THINGS FLOWING. MOST VOLUNTEERS DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY OF SIMPLY SCHEDULING THINGS AT THE LAST MINUTE. WE NEED TIME TO PLAN, MAKE LOCAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR OURSELVES AND OFTEN UNITS, AND SCROUNGE TO COVER COSTS. SO, I BEG ANYONE THAT IS ABLE, TO LIGHT A FIRE AT THE HIGHER LEVELS SO THOSE OF US STILL AWAITING VALID AND CONCRETE INFORMATION ARE NOT LEFT IN THE DARK MUCH LONGER. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE, WHOMEVER YOU MAY BE.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Well, if it is to be pie, then I want gooseberry. The perfect choice for someone soured on this whole thing.

Interestingly enough, I have had my older scouts ask if we can find a few more, so they can wear them like class B's at camp or COR. We have a few in the closet, but not enough for them all. Have had a couple still use them for backups at camp; and I have no problem. They tend to bring mostly positive feedback when they do.

twocubdad: There is an actual significance to be selected a jamboree leader of any sort. While I certainly realize that many care very little about these things, for memorabilia 30 or 40 years later, the special border, or whatever, would show that the person was a leader in a more select group in some capacity. I have a blanket, and it would be nice to have an ASM patch that immediately indicated I was that for our council troop that year. The same goes for the youth who were the junior leaders. I agree that sometimes the patches are over kill; but to me, this makes a lot of sense. Hope that clarifys this for you. There may even be someone that agrees with me; who knows.

Our unit was officially chartered in December, 1921, and we have all the paperwork to support it, including the original application. We are fortunate in that regard; and I was able to fix an error in the tenure because we had that material. The other two oldest units in our council also have most of the documentation. We are the second oldest continuous troop; the 3rd oldest lost 5 months when they had a lapse in rechartering, but did recharter in the contiguous year. National did not give them credit for the 5 months they missed, but did keep them as a continuous troop. My understanding is that should they have not rechartered again until the next year, the tenure would have been terminated, and they would have become a new troop on paper. The oldest troop can document to December, 1917, which predates our council. The original recharter for them, as an original troop in the new council, from 1921 shows the at large beginning date on the paperwork. Finding info on units prior to a council actually being there is hit and miss. News clippings, old sponsor records, and so on help. But National's records are either missing or hidden; and trying to get access is very difficult. I have been refused any access to at large Eagle paperwork that would possibly document Eagles that predate our council's origin in June, 1921. We had hundreds of scouts, beginning in the fall of 1910, according to news articles, and a couple of the "original" troops in 1921 had 5+ Eagles in the first decade of the council. So, I would imagine there very well could have been one or two at least prior to the council origin. Proving it without having access to records is next to impossible. The NESA and Eagle search computer logs from 2002 do not appear to have any data on at large registrations through regions or national. I suspect that there is a file somewhere of Eagles that were not assigned to a council when the work was done, as they did not know where they were from for sure, and there was no council affiliation. It took me years to get my own Eagle location corrected in NESA records, as my council merged in 1972, and they had me listed where I am now involved. Finally got that fixed this past year with the book search that occurred. But even then, they messed it up initially. So, I guess you need to find the oldest records available, dig in papers, talk to older scouters who might have info. You may or may not get the answers, but you will find lots of interesting things while doing it. Again, I was fortunate that one of our older scouters and a friend rescued all of our original charter records, dating to the start of the council, before they dumped them when our office moved in the 60's. They were stacked in the attic in our current office, and I spent a couple of months sweltering there for a few hours at a time, organizing them by unit types, and towns. They are now all in boxes, labeled, and available if someone should choose to review them. Maybe I need to check on them, come to think of it. People do dumb things with these type of records. Might have to refile a few, or something. Good luck.

The link below was posted on Scouts-L. It is truly a huge undertaking by this dedicated scouter. I am grateful for his efforts and attention to these things. This covers material just published in the brand new requirement book for 2010, including major merit badge changes, and even the "historical badges". Great resource. http://usscouts.org/advance/changes/advchanges10.asp

Now there is a suggestion that would make sense; having a bar with the troop's year of founding. Then, those of us in long time troops would not need to change the bar every five years. Next year we reach 90, and I will then have to order the bars, as we will be only the 2nd such troop in our council, then try to get current scouts to change them out. Have one scout still wearing an 80; gave up trying to get him to put the 85 on. Another idea I feel should be seriously considered by National, is a special border on leadership patches for Jambo troops. I was an ASM in 1985, but the patch I used has no indication of that, other than me. And there certainly would be enough demand to make it worthwhile with the amount of troops attending. The border would be possibly different each time, and include junior leaders as well, and possibly commissioners for regions and so on; or to keep costs lower, they could simply use the same patches each time.