skeptic

Glad we got on the same page. Many feel that West made BSA work because he organized it and also was lawyer that worked to overcome early issues. Since he was an orphan and had had a really hard upbringing, he brought his perspecitves as a boy to the work as well, championing youth in the early days. He worked with Teddy Roosevelt to bring some protection to children in the workplace, among other things. But he also was a taskmaster, and he clashed with both Seton and Beard in the earlier developmental period, though they found a way to compromise much of the time. Oh that our clown Congress might do that. Sorry if I may have come across as grumpy; I can do that. And being old is not an excuse. After all, that would be non Scouting.

Yep, those dim ages. When I tell scouts I never did an Eagle project they look at me funny. At least they had changed Bird Study to Nature on the list. We had these small groups that we had to choose from, along with the actual required ones. I have to say, that group concept made you have a broader exposure to various subjects. Kind of like general education that was once required to graduate college. Not sure that is the case now, but that was what I mostly took my first two years of college. And it introduced me to a new face of music and art, which was good. Understanding classical concepts has made me truly apprciate music in general, as it is a base for everything really. And a broad knowledge is useful in life.

If he was able to complete the second class he likely just needs to practice and maybe learn side and breast strokes. Many youth tend to think that the crawl is the only stroke to use, but the test does not say to use the crawl, only to use a strong stroke for the seventy-five yards, and then a resting backstorke, which would normally be the elementary backstroke. Defining strong may be an issue, but it is easier to master a breast of side stroke for a strong forward movement than the crawl in regard to energy, as they both allow a glide, especially if done properly. As far as simply getting practice, I would encourage you to perhaps try to find a local place with a smaller pool, but one that would allow practice at shorter distances, such as smalle swim clubs or even a backyard pool. The location does not need to be a full sized pool; and also a properly vetted lake, river, or even the ocean can work, though ocean would need to be in a restricted area as is set up at some camps. As I got older, I found that the side and breast strokes were better for me as they did not require the energy, as I noted, just good stroke technique. Good luck, and remember he will not need to pass the Merit Badge. On the other hand, he might care to work on it and do the MB. I had a scout years ago that struggled with the swim requirements, finally learning the elementary back stroke well, and simply battling through the minimum First Class stuff when he was old enough to sturggle through it minimally. It was not pretty, but he did it. Funny thing about him was he actually did the mile swim, completely on his back with the elementary stroke. And he later became an Army Ranger. When I asked him how that hap;pened, he said it was brute strength, not stroke quality.

Of course I refer to the tenets of BSA; that is the whole point of the West quote. He was speaking of the society at the time of the quote, which as it see also was not as civil as most of us would feel is to be striven. The tenets are the Oath, The Law, The Motto, and the Slogan, as well as later, after the time of this article/quote, the Outdoor Code. These make up the foundation of Scouting, and are the major factors in judging Scout Spirit. I truly do not understand your confusion over West. He was the head of BSA for decades and is considered one of the primary men in the history of BSA. James E. West, Chief Scout Executive, lawyer that worked for the improvement of life for youth, including those outside of BSA. As far as the Klan is concerned, I only see it as a point of reference in the quote as to what is not in tune with civil society. Have you read any of the history of BSA? If not, it might help a bit to do so. This is the best I can do to clarify this for you. Society would work more smoothly with the concept embraced by Scout Spirit. West was speaking to that, and the Klan had nothing directly to do with it, but they were a major problem at the period from from which this is taken, and not just to do with conflict with some religious beliefs of the time. Hopefully it is now a little clearer than basic mud.

Okay. We might agree that the basic tenets are something current, and past society might find or have found helpful. KKK is not a group that should be lionized, for sure. And religion is personal and BSA suggests we accept that individuality. It is all ambiguous and likely should remain a family element, ?. No proof, obviously, but I suspect Mr. West would have been alarmed at some things that have transpired since his death. Just the same, if we can keep the focus, it is a worthwhile effort on our parts I believe. I am old and need a nap.

The reason I posted it had nothing to do with Catholocim or the KIan. It has all to do with the fact that even at the time West recogized that the larger society might benefit from the concept of aceptance of thers. My interpretation, and my current feeling that our society today would do well to adhere to the tenets of the Scouting program. Other than noting that there are Catholic Scouts and so on, I do not see what you speak of, and he does not only mention Catholics. ??? I have not been able to locate the larger article, but perhaps someone might, or I still may if my eyes will cooperate with small copies and such.

I fail to see anything in the quote regarding Mr. West and the Klan. He is simply suggesting that people might consider the last part of the explanation of the 12th point; Be tolerant of other beliefs. How do we get to something negative about BSA, West, and so on?

Hopefully someone here can clarify or update. As I noted, itemizing no longer is viable for me at my age. So, maybe it has changed, or the data is not clear.

As far as I am aware, uniforms for adult volunteers are still tax deductible if you itemize; keep receipts and be reasonable. Not sure about the youth uniforms, have to check on that. But do not believe they are, thouogh maybe in some instances. Similarly, properly receipted gas and vehicle wear is deductible, and a milage count is still able to be listed at whatever the current cents per mile is; again, be able to verify in some manner. For example, when I still had enough info to itemize, I had determined the milage to our meeting place and the scout office and kept a roough record of how many trips. Ten miles rt to the meeting times usually about 25 times with meetings and outings and service. Twenty rt to the office, twice a month on averrage. Trips depended on whether scouts chipped in some way which often occurred at parent insistence on longer trips. If not, then again the map milage was the figure. Gear is a bit more unclear, though I suspect some may fall into the catgory, especially if donated to the unit. Adults also can deduct reasonable lost income if they go to camp as a leader, and also any training like Woodbadge. Online not deductible, only ones that are a drive to and from, and maybe meals if not fed. I also deducted the cost of recognition events at half the cost if it was a dinner of some sort.

Over time I have sat on one or two boards where similar circumstances brought the youth not attired as we prefer. But, in our district we would never not do the board. Most of the time it was due to an adult issue, or uncooperative coaches, sadly. The kind that give ultimatums. Another was he was on a dinner break from his employment. But, since it is the youth we are evaluating, not his attire, it should not matter. And often, these small glitches can lead to more open communication.

While a good and sharp uniform is an ideal for which to reach, it is NOT a requirment of BSA, and never has been. It is a tool, and surely should never become a barrier to the program, whether due to financial issues or simply youthful rebellion. Troops can determine their own uniform standard, but it is only that, and not an absolute. Example is important, but so is demonstrating that it is the program and its tenets that are foremost. On the other hand, whatever they do wear, they need to be neat and clean at a minimum unless they are doing something that precludes that. To ostracize a youth for wearing a soiled uniform, whether what we call class 2, or class 1 should not occur. When we make the wrong things paramount, we lose part of the purpose and aim. That is what I have seen in close to sixty years, and I have never forgotten how B.P. III, who I met at the rededication of Mount Baden Powell, said that my rag tag group, in as complete a uniform as we were able to get them in that fit, but there, clean and neat. He lloked at the groups before him and asked which ones was I connected to. They were being boys, but not overly so, and they were not disrespectful, but maybe a little rowdy. Another group was in perfect currrent uniforms and looked as if they were not getting any fun out of being there, even though they could have been a military unit. When I told B.P. III which were ours, he said his grandfather would likely have felt ours were more scoutlike. Balance and common sense, always keeping the youth as the focus, but in a positive way. JMHO as always.

"How can the "positive vibes" be monetized?" Depends on your perspective I guess. Short sighted or myopitic people may think as you suggest, but aware individuals likely see the good will of the image and action as putting that needed positive element in the minds of others. And so, when a Scouting fundraiser shows up in their pervue, they respond based on that. Tunnel vision is a major reason for the many messes in this country, in my view. Then, as often noted, what would I know?

In the past few days we have now had two So Cal TV stations show Scouting's true worth and image. KTLA had a cast member that shared his Philmont experience on their station. Now ABC ran this. https://abc7.com/abc7-salutes-monrovia-canyon-park-boy-scout-troop-66-california/13447126/ These are the types of things we should be doing to fix our image. And, it should be local first, as they have the details and should know where to go. And, meanwhile, National might work on regular, but not exhaustive shares in well placed spots. Most of us know that it was often the positive vibes from local press that made many of us want to be in Scouting, as well as the excitement that was offered in a less overloaded atmosphere of things to do for excitment, fun, and attention.

While this thread is worth reviewing, I have to say I continue to somehow be put off by the question about any "rumors". Am not sure that we want to encourage that, as too often it becomes a problem. Old guy being picky (?).

We just had a weekend group badge event, and from what the conselors told me, the youth were not concerned, and even had some serious comments. Most importantly, I am noting that my own annoyance, while still there for the reason I have previously noted, is likely MY annoyance and that I very well may have short changed the youth and their understanding. An occurrence we adults may allow too often. Yes, the tenets covered this, but the modern clarifications of broader accpetance may be important to discuss. Do we need the MB; I still do not believe so, but it is now here, and it fills a place in the chaotic new world.

It is sad that so few keep at it. Of particular significance, from what I have read/heard, there is a serious desire of Veteran Funeral groups to have real buglers for burials. While recorded is nice, the presence in a sharp uniform of the actual bugler, standing straight like a Rockwell image does a lot for ceremony and memories. At least that is how it is for me. Our troop bugler just graduated, and he may soon join the service. But he has always enjoyed that special stance of a bugle to lips while standing tall.

While it would be interesting to hear some other brass instruments doing the calls, I feel it leans towards the three or four noted, with an actual bugle being number one. I know that our bugler can do miracles with his lips on the bugle, sounding better than someone using a valved instrument. At our camp they have done taps with bugle, trumpet, and trombone together in echoed harmonies. Haunting, but the pure bugle sound is still the best for me. Have also heard a guy with a bagpipe do taps; interesting sound.

You are right, and I have obviously made a poor comparison. WF withdrew support at the advent of Dale, not at the change in the BSA stance. So, it is not contradicory. I stand corrected and hope the moderators may simply delete this, or seal it. Thank you.

I could not help but be a bit sad this morning when Wells Fargo Bank posted a blurb on their FB page praising their current stance on LGBTQ support. When the first public attacks on BSA standces on Gays started in the nineties, when United Way cut most councils off, and so on, Wells Fargo came out against BSA for their stance on Gays at the time. Understand, WF Corporate was, and may still be, in the Bay Area. Similarly Levi Strauss did too, along with myriad other national corps, pulling their support donation and encouraging their local sites to discourage it as well. We were locally affected at the time as the WF branch that had our unit funds contacted us and said they no longer would allow us to bank there as a Non-Profit. Many on here likely recollect the confusion and serious ramifications of the time, until today, the worst negaitive publicity BSA had had in decades, if ever. Sad isn't it?

Maybe if we could find a way to erase the negative impacts of far too many unwarranted celebrities we might make progress. It is sort of like making movies and videos about the worst actors in society and seeing them hold ratings higher than most positive films. Far too much focus on these peoplek, in all major theaters of society, but especially the entertainment and sports environments, and of course the political circus.

How much credence do insurance companies even have today? They have far too much leverage and seem, in my view, likely to make decisions totally on monetary basis, and NOT on the reality of specific claims. Insurance carriers cannot ever never have claims, and their reason for existence, in theory, is that life is fickle and things can happen without intent or due to life in general. The lame excuse that it was, or is, an "act of God" is prominent in their response litany. Another is using broad samples to apply to specifically focused issues, rather than any data from the actual location or situation. Like in most large industries or corporations, they search for reasons to NOT give the very service for which they were sourced. Of course, much of the issue is still on our own backs from the respective that too many feel it is always someone else's fault or why should I have to remedy possible liabilities? Absolute safety is NOT possible, and no amount of written "rules" will totally stop poor decisions or the truly warped people of society. Still, the basic Scouting tenets are a strong foundation if used as intended.

Barry, I would like to believe that a "values development youth program" is really what parents are seeking, and those same values are dormant in the larger society for whatever reason. We can use all the "modern" words, but realtiy may be that we as a larger societal group have become jaded and feel like "what is the point?". Yet it is obvious that is exactly what is needed, in my view. And it still take hold and receives positive feedback in the too few instances that get into real media. On the FB feed "Talk About Scouting" I seem to see a great many likes from those following, but seldom posting, for anything that highlights the local positive images. For example, in the Aaron on Scouting page, he noted two Eagles who have founded a nuclear energy startup and asked them how Scouting helped and contributed. One specifically highlighted the foundational tenets of the program. And that shared quote has gotten huge positive response. Similarly in our local area, most posts noting this type o thing bring positive feedback, and likes. What is hard to deal with is that for some reason that apparent recognition of the "need" continues to go begging much of the time. Scouting really cannot succeed unless those base tenets are part and parcel, and we find a way to embed them in the larger society.

We continue to return to the messed up legl atmostphere here in this country, and also the lack of much control of insurance companies that choose to at a whim much of the time to have excuses to NOT pay claims, or if they do, to cancel or raise rates so people cannot afford it. All you need do is look at most of the insurance "bigs" and their corporate profits to see how much is being paid to stock holders and so on which could be paid to coverage at more equitable rate. I get so annoyed at the excuse "act of God" so we will not pay, or pay limited amounts. Much of the time the "act of God" would not have occurred if the insured had done proper maintencance. The utility companies are now feeling that coming to haunt them. It surely would have been less expensive to do regular and proper maintenance on lines within forests and such so they would not get out of control in a fire, or at least be less of an issue; but they chose to not pay, but rather put more profit in the holders' pockets. So, what can they say now?

Frankly, though I am aware some would scream and stomp feet and so on, I doubt many Scouters living the basic precepts of the Oath and Law would care if a young woman wore that pin on her Scouts USA uniform. I surely would have no issue and think that now, if a GS were to earn Eagle or similar Scout BSA award that she might also wear a pin or knot related to it on her GS uniform. But, that wouold likely raise even more clamor. Respect and fair representation of achievement is always worth noting with people, and especially youth.

A personal issue, but knee-jerk judgment is a sure indicator of likely automatic bias. JMHO of course. Do not see how the term Americanism, or the likely definition, is in itself a bad thing. Now, a fly on the wall might judge otherwise.