skeptic

Duhhh! Another indicator that I am still living in the 60's. I still have a college footlocker, and it is way too large for practical shipping. Thanks for unmuddling my head. Now know what to look for.

Have tried to get an answer regarding the notes on the jamboree site in the staff section that we need to have a footlocker. This is not something that is simple, or inexpensive to ship. Is this something actually needed, or just a suggestion; or do they furnish them? I lived out of duffles in the past two I attended. Thanks

Please; enough. Must we rehash this whole thing "again". Close it out.

Guess I should read more carefully. The service work would satisfy the 1 hour service requirement. But the work for compass, and so on, are not normally counted towards other related requirements, especially merit badges. They MAY work on requirements for all three lower ranks concurrently though, just not generally use the same work for multiple requirements. Now for swimming for 2nd and 1st; the 50 yard requirement can be part of the 100 yard requirement. But that work normally would have nothing to do with the swimming portion of the merit badge, other than to meet the prelim requirement to have completed those elements of rank prior to, or concurrently with the "start" of the badge and the "swim check". Anyway, that is the way we normally apply these things. Others may have slightly different thoughts, but they likely are very similar.

Yes, it should.

Congratulations to Justin for his positive outcome after a difficult ordeal. And kudos to "Mom" for sticking with it and encouraging him to persevere. But, as Huzzar said; time to put this one to bed for good.

Thank you Beavah for the link to the article. I agree, it weighs the issue very evenly, and makes a number of very important points regarding the broader consequences.

As far as trading at Jambo is concerned, he should simply remember that he no longer is supposed to trade with youth. In reality, there will be no shortage of adults with whom he can trade; so that should not hinder his fun and possible improvement of his field of interest. Jamboree guidelines are very specific. And he needs to adhere to them. Since he is 18, and going to Jambo, what is his position? Is he going as part of the Arrow Corps at Jamboree? He would then be part of a large group of "tweeners", 18-21 year old scouts. Again, a fertile ground for trading. Good luck to him.

Yes!! Common sense still does survive. Great comments Eamonn. Like the part about taking the fun out. Had Camporee this past weekend, and minor issue in that realm. Have two brand new cross over boys on the outing. Saturday, one of the event staff is walking through; her job is safety among others. These two have crawled up a large oak branch to a fork and are just having a good time; maybe 8 feet from the ground at best on a branch that is over a foot thick. She tells me that they cannot climb the tree; and of course I pretty much tell her they are boys, and that is what they do. Later we cleared the air of any misunderstanding, but we cannot take away every possible danger. Sure, they could have fallen; but it was unlikely. Plus it happened that both of their dads were there. She was simply "following the rules" established with the ever present fear of litigation. "Common Sense", and "preserving a modicum of natural instinctive fun".

Guess my question or comment was unclear. My gripe is mostly with those that somehow are able to obtain these items and use them to make a profit. Obviously, that does not seem to bother some; and others seem to have missed the intent of the comment. Got to go worry about more important things. Have COR this weekend, and have brand new kids and leaders. Should be interesting.

We all know that his will lead to more suits; it is inevitable. No matter how much has been done in the meantime, it appears that things will be judged based on emotion and the continuing media bias and sensationalism towards anything of this nature. Certainly there is a "big pocket" mentality here, as well as judging things from more than 2 decades ago on today's laws and responses. Still, perhaps more could have been done. Does it merit the ridiculous sums of money? The idea that "keeping records", which due to their content, should be kept private, is a cover-up is simply ludicrous. Really another "Catch 22" situation. Find it interesting that the courts apparently instructed National to remove their response to the verdict from the National web site; I guess they think it will somehow conflict with the secondary ruling. Meantime, the press and internet blogs can continue to demonize and worse without being stopped. Does not quite appear to be fair; but I did not actually see the response before it was removed, so perhaps there was a good reason for that decision, other than tying their hands. Hopefully this too will be overcome sooner than later, and we can get back to trying to run a program. The real concern is that with every one of these that happen, there are more limitations put on what and how we do things. At some point, no one will want to be involved, as they will be afraid of what "could" happen when these warped people find a way around, or someone drops the ball in the protections in place.

For me, what seems distasteful, is the appearance that "a few" are somehow obtaining items they should be using for personal use, and immediately turning around and offering them for sale, often at a very substantial profit. I understand both the historical and collection connections; but I am talking about the blatant abuse of the privilege of buying certain items meant for a limited use or audience. There is a huge difference between selling "old" material, and buying currently for sale material intended for a particular activity or period, then putting it up for sale. I too have bought many things for my historical collection; and I have sold a few items as well. But none of them have been current, nor intended for use by a specialized upcoming event by the specific participants. To me, as I have noted, it just seems dishonest. JMHO

Probably just my own outdated perception of honor and integrity, but I am really annoyed by how many items appear on eBay that are supposed to be restricted to specific participants or "earned". It is one thing to offer older items; but current ones seem to me to be out of line. Currently, there are at least 3, likely others I have not seen, "Dealers" there that are listing Jamboree items, 2010 limited patches for rank and office, and OA items. The questions that come to mind are: How do they get them?; Are some scout stores simply selling them to whomever?; Are they actually involved in Scouting (having seller ratings in the thousands would hint at not likely)?; And, if they are involved in Scouting, does the concept of "Honor" and "Trustworthiness" have a more modern connotation than I understand as a "vintage scouter"? Waiting for snide comments, but hoping for some sincere thoughts.

In regard to A.P.Hill, you will find if you go back and look, that over the years the BSA has paid large amounts to cover various costs at the Jambo. They also have built or developed areas at their expense that will remain for use going forward. The entire arrangement has been beneficial for the Army, as well as BSA. The base has had the opportunity to develop and practice emergency support procedures by hosting the event over the years, training really hard to simulate. Obviously the medical response to heat issues and lightning are well known as challenges recently. But, when hurricane Bob hit the site in 1985, they had a far greater challenge. And they met it well. The the efficiency with which they gathered wet bedding in order to dry it, and issued temporary blankets to about 80% of the participants was remarkable. The interaction of the military and BSA has always been a mutually beneficial one.

Think it is supposed to be a blue parrot with a yellow beak. Not likely a dog, since dog care still exists. JMO.

Yeah Beavah, I would not hold my breath. That's for sure. "M" would have to focus on something beyond his own ego.

Ah, the naivete of those from yesteryear. Back when the agreement was made, honor was perhaps more important to people. Everyone, at the time, certainly understood what the reason for the agreement was. And until the past 25 years or so, before freedom began being interpreted as license too often, ego-centric-ism became a way of life for many, and "PC" twisting became a staple for many lawyers, the intent was honored by both sides. So, we are left with the current legal morass, not only here, but in other parts of the country. The shame of course is that while the legal contortions are taking place, the kids most benefited lose out. And, in many of the cases, if the government entity ends up with property, it will fall into disrepair and become overgrown, as they will not have the resources to care for it. Oh well! (:-

No Ed, he does not get his way; we simply tune him out, just as I do to you and a few others on occasion. And I am sure that I too am tuned out by others sometimes.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Since my fingers will not cooperate to make the needed sign, I just do not get involved. Not sure why they refuse to form the proper separations.

Yep, as now a counselor for both reading and scholarship, if prepared ahead of time, most boys spend less than an hour with me. Occasionally one shows up without needed documentation, or has not put in the effort to write a "real" essay, or something. But those coming for these 2 are usually prepared. Yeh, I know looking back that there were likely a dozen or so badges I could have completed the last couple of years, after Eagle, since I was 15 and 1/2, and ended up with more than 1 palm. But, I had too much going on, and never got around to it. Did earn God and Country though, which I am glad I did.

My first one was either scholarship or reading; they were definitely the first two. I was, as they called us then, "a book worm". Most memorable ones were canoeing, which I DID NOT PASS, and reptile study, which was my last. I lived on the edge of Joshua Tree National Monument, and my counselor for reptile study was the monument superintendent. I hiked into 49 Palms Canyon, which is on the edge of the park near where I lived, and captured 4 or 5 tree frogs from the oasis there, put them in a container of water, and brought them back. Then I put them in a big washtub with screening and a small artificial habitat and did the observations. Somehow I managed to not have any of them die, and after the 30 days was up, I took them back and released them; they all were alive, and surely happy, as frogs can be anyway, to be "home". When I described my observations for the counselor, he gives me this "look", then the voice clearing; you likely all have heard it. After very sternly explaining to me how he could arrest me for federal violations, one for each frog, and so on, terrifying me, even at 17, he smiled and said something to the effect of, "I'm sure you will NEVER do something like that again!", and approved the merit badge. Of course, I have been ultra-aware of these types of reg's ever since. Canoeing was as a 15 year old on Jenks Lake near Crestline, Ca. Old Camp Arataba, summer of 1959. Could not master the j-stroke, and so never completed it. Everything else was a snap. Funny encounter with a row boat of girl scouts while doing the swamping thing. They appeared while I was turning it over in the water to get into and paddle into shore to empty. They wanted to know if I needed help; of course they found this to be amusing, based on the giggling from some (think there were 3). Arataba was right next door to the still in use, Tahquitz owned by Long Beach Area Council. My troop has attended Tahquitz the past 2 years, and we are going again this year. Arataba, along with its FS lease, was sold in 1960 after they had a disastrous fire over the winter that burned the lodge to the ground, along with a storage facility with most of their tents and so on. Arrowhead Area Council just happened to have had the land donated that year that became Helendade in Running Springs. So, they built the new camp, with Arataba's last year being the summer of 1960 using tentage and other material furnished by the two nearby Marine bases. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

Oh that old "Pogo" schtick!!!!

http://comics.com/candorville/ Found this to be really representative of some of the discussions here. Smile!!

Pretty much go with Beavah here. But am curious as to how, if your info is accurate, the SM thinks he is taking 8 scouts and 15 adults to Philmont, unless most are actually going to a conference while the rest are on the trail. Philmont will not allow more adults than scouts in a crew; believe the ration is 8:4 max with a crew of 12, and fewer adults should the youth be fewer.

I would think there would be no difference between a more or less permanently attached one and one with pins of some sort; they would simply need to fit the space, and be where they belong. Even though I have tried to stay away from the pie thread, it seems as if my shirts continue to shrink over time. I finally had to accept that some have passed their usefulness to me. I stripped three yesterday of personal things; one a wonderful 50's era "short-sleeve" shirt with wooden buttons. Such a cool shirt (not weather); but I can barely button the top two buttons. One is going to one of my scouts who has outgrown his, and really cannot afford a new one; the other two, one long sleeved, are going to a COR meeting for offer to others. Meanwhile, I will continue to look for the closet moths that cause the problem, so current shirts do not suffer the same fate.