skeptic

Not being a lawyer, I am amazed at the redundancies in the charges. I also really wonder how they can even list some of them, especially those lodged against the church. Certainly, proving that the hike was not "planned" properly, and that proper procedures were not followed may be the crux of the trial. I cannot imagine them doing this hike without having done preliminary hikes and considerable preparation and planning. And, of course, the idea that someone should not undertake this because it was hot is ludicrous, or at least to me. Still, they are counting on the jury falling for the sympathy card, and also the idea that BSA has deep pockets. JMO at this juncture, based on reading the charge as posted. Would be interested in the comments, off the record of course, of our resident legal experts.

Almost all the comments that were posted after the print story linked to the video were in support of the scouts. As noted, far too vague and, as usual, sensationalized. There now appears to be another mode of attack by those who would bring the BSA down; "death by a thousand pricks". Find whatever negative thing they can, then make sure that it gets featured in a very negative way to as many as possible. And do not even attempt to bring balance to the story. As was pointed out a number of times in the comments mentioned, scouting activities are overall "far" safer than other youth activities. But they still are hardly ever featured in these kind of stories. All we can do is continue to try and be as safe as we can, make sure we do not attempt things we are not trained and prepared for, and always be super aware of how our charges are acting and following proper procedures. But, no matter how hard we try, we will not eliminate all accidents or unforeseen health issues. Unless, of course, we simply do nothing at all that may have even a hint of danger. But then they will accuse us of making the kids even more unhealthy and prone to health problems, because we do not get them active enough. Very tiresome and disheartening.

These are the times where you earn your stripes as a leader; how you react to a very serious issue with a scout. Scouts are no different than other boys, other than they hopefully are exposed a bit more to positive examples. But they are still boys and young male adolescents. They make bad decisions, bend to peer pressure, and act out. How we react to them when they do, especially the more serious things like this, is our biggest challenge. It SHOULD NOT BE A KNEE JERK response. They are not throw-away's when they mess up. But we need to help them understand the depth of their mistake, and that it will have consequences. This could be turning point for the young man. Don't make it a reason to drive him away or brand him a failure. Find a fair punishment and encourage him to make amends and regain the pride in himself he would want, and that he wants from others. JMHO

Boys' Life reprints; show up fairly often on eBay. The most common ones are from the 70's, but occasionally some of the older ones in smaller format appear.

Much depends on how he has responded to his poor choices. He still has time to prove that he deserves to be an Eagle, though it may be that some additional time might be warranted to reinforce his demonstration of Scout Spirit, and to prove he has learned a hard lesson. One poor decision is not grist for complete disqualification; but certainly it is reason for a serious discussion with him regarding his mistake and so on. And, it should perhaps be a point of discussion in an actual board, though diplomatically done as delving into his lesson learned. We have had a couple of boys who made poor choices who became Eagle. One had plenty of time to prove himself prior to his completion. The other made his poor decision a few days before his scheduled board, as part of a group of graduates who pulled a stupid prank at their school that resulted in damage. He came forward immediately and admitted his guilt, and he made arrangements to pay his portion of the damages. But, it was a serious point of discussion in his board; but he personally breached the subject right at the start. He and I had had a very long discussion as to how he should handle the situation, and his bringing it up at the start was part of that counseling. He passed, and went on to spend a tour of duty in the service and has never had any problems since. Just my opinion and observations from a long tenure as a Scouter.

So, where did I suggest making this a scouting program. It was simply posted to hopefully make those reading here more aware of the problem. It is important to the age group with which we work. I really do not understand Seattle's comment. Some things posted are information only, not actual scout issues. It seems clear enough to me. JMHO

In our local district, we just found out that a recently passed Eagle, only 17, passed away after a year and a half fight with testicular cancer. His father asked that all of us be aware that this cancer is the worst one for young men between 15 and 35, and encourages parents and their teenage sons learn the signs to look for. If it is diagnosed early enough, the treatment success if pretty high; but once it reaches a certain stage, it is likely to be fatal. So, please Google it and counsel your sons on how to do self exams, and what other symptoms they should not just ignore.

Well, here is one the Kudu might like, as it relates to the ownership of the symbols and so on. I believe that technically, National has the "right" to remove the names of individuals from lists of honors and ranks, if they choose. Whether or not it has happened is vague. I do know that in our council, SB has been indirectly revoked by stripping the name and date from the list of recipients on file. When I was a scout eons ago, the fine print shown in the handbook stated that the badge could be taken back. "A Scout's honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate this honor, by lying, cheating, or not doing exactly a given task, when trusted upon his honor, he may be directed to hand over his "scout badge". So, the intent was stated at one time in the manual. The OP though seems more interested in some kind of public embarrassment, as the video he posted is a clip from "Branded". Unlikely to have any "formal" recension occur, as physically taking it back would be very difficult.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Am watching the Amazon Mr. Scoutmaster right now; wondering if I can copy to a CD for use at a meeting. Thanks for the info on the availability. By the way, FMB is available on CD directly from the BSA; our scout store has it in the store, but can be ordered from Scoutstuff too.

Try searching for "vintage" boy scout uniforms. There are hundreds of images on the web. Good luck.

Just wondering if it may be time to take the 2010 Jambo thread down? Maybe you could replace it with a Bechtel one. Just a thought.

Still trying to find a copy of "Mr Scoutmaster". Anyone know where it can be located?

Gags; Does that mean one has to be a "right ol' chap" to get up on the Bully Pulpit?

Just to take the edge off................ It this was an English executive (I know they don't have them), would we be happy he was "bully"? Just wondering.

Strange how you can remember the general story line, even relating to your questions; but I only got 4 out of the 20. And I have the original book, the movie title version, the DVD, and stills from the advertising material. Thanks for the fun.

Kudu; Why are you suggesting that I see something "wrong" with these requirements? Most of them are still in existence today, and so should be learned and "practiced". My point is that in some ways, they are more difficult, especially at the first two levels. First class is a real challenge, though certainly not anything that cannot be done by the persistent boy. I would agree with the comment that reviewing past requirements might be a good idea in order to cement the skills more successfully. As far as getting out goes, I wonder where you are that you have such a poor vision of the units camping. Maybe we have more outdoors oriented troops on the West coast. Certainly the problems you speak of are not nearly as common as you would indicate; or maybe it is simply a matter of perception. Whatever; focusing on success is generally better than on failure. At least in my opinion. Too bad that yours is on the negative side. There is always room to improve, but it is far better to move to make those corrections based on a positive outlook. JMHO No more responses to your posts on this from me, as you are obviously not willing to see anything but what you choose.

Think I am with Pack here. We seldom ever have specific, rigid advancement plans; though they are available should boys choose to do them. Like I will usually do knife and axe safety, including setting up a temporary axe area. I enjoy simply chopping wood, so I do. I will teach the scouts how to properly use the tool to "do the work" if they are big enough, and some do. Others simply want to climb on rocks, catch lizards, play in the stream, and so on. So be it; it is "their" time. Interestingly enough, the most unstructured outings are often the ones they talk about later. And Twocubs, I was surprised to see 3 brand new bridged scouts sit and watch the sun set last fall and make mention of how pretty it was. So, maybe we do not give them enough credit for the these things. For me, it is often the complete quiet time after they all have gone to bed that is best. Standing by almost dead coals, stirring them to regenerate the warmth, is somehow special. And occasionally, a scout will choose to join me. Those have sometimes been when I learned more about the individual boy than I had in months, or even years. Yes, simply camping is a good thing. And even the terrible drive in can give us some of these moments if the location is remote enough to get away from most of the crazy stuff of popular sites. JMHO

A "Pearl" from the past that reflects very much on today. "If any man consider the present aspects of what is called by distinction society, he will see the need of these ethics. The sinew and heart of man seem to be drawn out, and we are become timorous, desponding whimperers. We are afraid of truth, afraid of fortune, afraid of death, and afraid of each other. Our age yields no great and perfect persons. We want men and women who shall renovate life and our social state, but we see that most natures are insolvent, cannot satisfy their own wants, have an ambition out of all proportion to their practical force, and do lean and beg day and night continually. Our housekeeping is mendicant, our arts, our occupations, our marriages, our religion, we have not chosen, but society has chosen for us. We are parlour soldiers. We shun the rugged battle of fate, where strength is born. If our young men miscarry in their first enterprises, they lose all heart. If the young merchant fails, men say he is ruined. If the finest genius studies at one of our colleges, and is not installed in an office within one year afterwords in the cities or suburbs of Boston or New York, it seems to his friends and to himself that he is right in being disheartened, and in complaining the rest of his life. A sturdy lad from New Hampshire or Vermont, who in turn tries all the professions, who teams it, farms it, peddles, keeps a school, preaches, edits a newspaper, goes to Congress, buys a township, and so forth, in successive years, and always, like a cat, falls on his feet, is worth a hundred of these city dolls. He walks abreast with his days, and feels no shame in not 'studying a profession,' for he does not postpone his life, but lives already. He has not one chance, but a hundred chances." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1841)

Very often my "VISA" card. (%-)}

Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or SNAKE BITE; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; DEMONSTRATE ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATION. Above are the first class first aid requirements, which includes knowing what to do about snake bite and how to do artificial respiration. The handbook does in fact tell the scout to use a tourniquet for snake bite, and even to loosen it after an hour or so, if the victim has not been gotten to the doctor. Of course we know today that this is not the best treatment, and can be very dangerous. Interestingly enough, the cutting of the bite is NOT noted; that occurred much later. Now, the method of resuscitation in the book of the period was the Schaefer method, which was straddling the victim from below his back and pushing upwards to expel water, cautioning to turn the head sideways. They did not recommend the barrel method, though the original Seton manual indirectly did, as it referred the scout to the National American Red Cross and Y.M.C.A. for training; and the barrel method was one still shown in their material. One can make all kinds of assumptions about how much better the scouts learned things then; but we can surmise that they too had boys who passed the exams, but then forgot for whatever reason, be it lack of real knowledge, lack of interest, or simply not practicing. But basic woodlore was more likely to be needed then, so they were far more likely to find it worthwhile. The nature of boys has not changed that much, just the ways that some find to get around things and do as little as possible. We are far more urbanized than back then, and we have far more things to distract youth. The majority of the scouts in our area that stay with the program, are moderately good outdoors people, especially when compared to their peers and many adults. We also have some who would give Dan Beard or Seton a run for their money. The opportunities for adventure available to units that choose to take advantage are far greater today than back then. That includes reverting back to camping using basic skills and fending for ones self where possible within the strictures of today's laws. And the most successful troops take advantage of as much as they can, while most others still manage to get into the outdoors far more than than is common in our society. Only a very few are the types of units of which you complain, though maybe there are more today than when our entire country was more rural. These are my observations as a SM for more than 30 years, with a troop that has done thousands of back pack miles over its almost 90 years, and makes every effort to continue to get out as much as possible; though we are currently struggling to find some younger adults to whom to pass the more strenuous activities. And we have dozens of similar units in our council, though not quite as old. Thank you for your dedication to the basic principals of the program. I just feel that you are focusing too much on perceived problems, and not enough on the far more positive successes.

I have pretty much just watched this conversation with the Kudu pronouncements, but feel I need to point out one or two things. First of all, there continues to be this idea that somehow earning scout ranks in the early days was far more difficult than today, and required more abilities in the "traditional" scoutcraft area. While to some extent, especially on the First Class level, that is true. But, especially at tenderfoot, it was not much different than today, perhaps even simpler. Here are the 1911 requirements for the first three levels; remember that Life, Star, and Eagle were basically glorified merit badge recognitions then. Tenderfoot To become a scout a boy must be at least twelve years of age and must pass a test in the following: 1. Know the scout law, sign, salute, and significance of the badge. 2. Know the composition and history of the national flag and the customary forms of respect due to it. 3. Tie four out of the following knots: square or reef, sheet-bend, bowline, fisherman's, sheepshank, halter, clove hitch, timber hitch, or two half hitches. He then takes the scout oath, is enrolled as a tenderfoot, and is entitled to wear the tenderfoot badge. Second-Class Scout To become a second-class scout, a tenderfoot must pass, to the satisfaction of the recognized local scout authorities, the following tests: 1. At least one month's service as a tenderfoot. 2. Elementary first aid and bandaging; know the general directions for first aid for injuries; know treatment for fainting, shock, fractures, bruises, sprains, injuries in which the skin is broken, burns, and scalds; demonstrate how to carry injured, and the use of the triangular and roller bandages and tourniquet. 3. Elementary signaling: Know the semaphore, or American Morse, or Myer alphabet. 4. Track half a mile in twenty-five minutes; or, if in town, describe satisfactorily the contents of one store window out of four observed for one minute each. 5. Go a mile in twelve minutes at scout's pace about fifty steps running and fifty walking, alternately. 6. Use properly knife or hatchet. 7. Prove ability to build a fire in the open, using not more than two matches. 8. Cook a quarter of a pound of meat and two potatoes in the open without the ordinary kitchen cooking utensils. 9. Earn and deposit at least one dollar in a public bank. 10. Know the sixteen principal points of the compass. First-Class Scout To become a first-class scout, the second-class scout must pass the following tests: 1. Swim fifty yards. 2. Earn and deposit at least two dollars in a public bank. 3. Send and receive a message by semaphore, or American Morse, or Myer alphabet, sixteen letters per minute. 4. Make a round trip alone (or with another scout) to a point at least seven miles away (fourteen miles in all), going on foot or rowing boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed. 5. Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or snake bite; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; demonstrate artificial respiration. 6. Prepare and cook satisfactorily, in the open, without regular kitchen utensils, two of the following articles as may be directed. Eggs, bacon, hunter's stew, fish, fowl, game, pancakes, hoe-cake, biscuit, hardtack or a "twist," baked on a stick; explain to another boy the methods followed. 7. Read a map correctly, and draw, from field notes made on the spot, an intelligible rough sketch map, indicating by their proper marks important buildings, roads, trolley lines, main landmarks, principal elevations, etc. Point out a compass direction without the help of the compass. 8. Use properly an axe for felling or trimming light timber; or produce an article of carpentry or cabinet-making or metal work made by himself. Explain the method followed. 9. Judge distance, size, number, height and weight within 25 per cent. 10. Describe fully from observation ten species of trees or plants, including poison ivy, by their bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, or scent; or six species of wild birds by their plumage, notes, tracks, or habits; or six species of native wild animals by their form, color, call, tracks, or habits; find the North Star, and name and describe at least three constellations of stars. 11. Furnish satisfactory evidence that he has put into practice in his daily life the principles of the scout oath and law. 12. Enlist a boy trained by himself in the requirements of a tenderfoot. Checking with the later requirements from late teens, and early 20's, not too much was changed. (referred to 1911, 1913, 1914, 1917, & 1925 BSHB's). Tenderfoot remained the same, and only minor things changed in 2ndC and 1stC. One of the things we should take note of, is that "starting a fire" NEVER required using anything but "two matches". The other no match skills were discussed and encouraged as additional skills, but were never an actual requirement. This, of course, reflects the use of "commonly available" technology of the period. The same is reflected in some of the merit badges of the period, which changed with the improvements of the period, and of course, first aid, which had many ideas then that would be cause for serious alarm today, or at least good laughs. Think rolling a drowning victim on a barrel, or using tourniquets for snake bite. Also, in the early period, it was important to know about runaway horses and mad dogs, as that was a common problem then, and much less was known about rabies. Should we still be teaching these things? Of course not. Finally, just for info, B.P. introduced the British version of Cubbing in 1916. "He" saw the need for the younger boy program even then. Perhaps some individuals need to get out of the forest of misconception and actually look at the trees.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Anyone note the mention that Bachman is talking about running now? Likely won't actually happen; but cannot believe she even would talk about it. JMO

We live in Southern California where wild fire is an almost constant threat. But, building a fire lay, which is a requirement at the lower level, can be done in a barbecue pit or similar location, outside the fire areas. While there is a note that a fire need not be actually lit, it is reasonable to expect them to, though there is no need to build a full blown fire to meet the requirement; simply prepare and lay it correctly, light it until it is obvious it could be built up in proper conditions, and put it out. Obviously, water or extinguishers should be on hand if necessary. Not sure why we continue to make things more difficult than needed. There are work a rounds for almost any situation with a little imagination and effort. JMHO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

This was used as a commissioner award back in the late 60's or early 70's, sort of like the current Quality Unit. The unit had to meet certain requirements to be a "AA", double A, unit. Hope this answers your question.

"Sorry, the requested page has expired. Please email support if you believe this message has been received in error." This is the message I am now getting when I check the link I have kept for the legal site, which included details on law suits and so on. Had not been an entry since May, but that was not uncommon. Hope they update it and find a way to keep it more current, yet have the archives available.