skeptic

Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or SNAKE BITE; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; DEMONSTRATE ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATION. Above are the first class first aid requirements, which includes knowing what to do about snake bite and how to do artificial respiration. The handbook does in fact tell the scout to use a tourniquet for snake bite, and even to loosen it after an hour or so, if the victim has not been gotten to the doctor. Of course we know today that this is not the best treatment, and can be very dangerous. Interestingly enough, the cutting of the bite is NOT noted; that occurred much later. Now, the method of resuscitation in the book of the period was the Schaefer method, which was straddling the victim from below his back and pushing upwards to expel water, cautioning to turn the head sideways. They did not recommend the barrel method, though the original Seton manual indirectly did, as it referred the scout to the National American Red Cross and Y.M.C.A. for training; and the barrel method was one still shown in their material. One can make all kinds of assumptions about how much better the scouts learned things then; but we can surmise that they too had boys who passed the exams, but then forgot for whatever reason, be it lack of real knowledge, lack of interest, or simply not practicing. But basic woodlore was more likely to be needed then, so they were far more likely to find it worthwhile. The nature of boys has not changed that much, just the ways that some find to get around things and do as little as possible. We are far more urbanized than back then, and we have far more things to distract youth. The majority of the scouts in our area that stay with the program, are moderately good outdoors people, especially when compared to their peers and many adults. We also have some who would give Dan Beard or Seton a run for their money. The opportunities for adventure available to units that choose to take advantage are far greater today than back then. That includes reverting back to camping using basic skills and fending for ones self where possible within the strictures of today's laws. And the most successful troops take advantage of as much as they can, while most others still manage to get into the outdoors far more than than is common in our society. Only a very few are the types of units of which you complain, though maybe there are more today than when our entire country was more rural. These are my observations as a SM for more than 30 years, with a troop that has done thousands of back pack miles over its almost 90 years, and makes every effort to continue to get out as much as possible; though we are currently struggling to find some younger adults to whom to pass the more strenuous activities. And we have dozens of similar units in our council, though not quite as old. Thank you for your dedication to the basic principals of the program. I just feel that you are focusing too much on perceived problems, and not enough on the far more positive successes.

I have pretty much just watched this conversation with the Kudu pronouncements, but feel I need to point out one or two things. First of all, there continues to be this idea that somehow earning scout ranks in the early days was far more difficult than today, and required more abilities in the "traditional" scoutcraft area. While to some extent, especially on the First Class level, that is true. But, especially at tenderfoot, it was not much different than today, perhaps even simpler. Here are the 1911 requirements for the first three levels; remember that Life, Star, and Eagle were basically glorified merit badge recognitions then. Tenderfoot To become a scout a boy must be at least twelve years of age and must pass a test in the following: 1. Know the scout law, sign, salute, and significance of the badge. 2. Know the composition and history of the national flag and the customary forms of respect due to it. 3. Tie four out of the following knots: square or reef, sheet-bend, bowline, fisherman's, sheepshank, halter, clove hitch, timber hitch, or two half hitches. He then takes the scout oath, is enrolled as a tenderfoot, and is entitled to wear the tenderfoot badge. Second-Class Scout To become a second-class scout, a tenderfoot must pass, to the satisfaction of the recognized local scout authorities, the following tests: 1. At least one month's service as a tenderfoot. 2. Elementary first aid and bandaging; know the general directions for first aid for injuries; know treatment for fainting, shock, fractures, bruises, sprains, injuries in which the skin is broken, burns, and scalds; demonstrate how to carry injured, and the use of the triangular and roller bandages and tourniquet. 3. Elementary signaling: Know the semaphore, or American Morse, or Myer alphabet. 4. Track half a mile in twenty-five minutes; or, if in town, describe satisfactorily the contents of one store window out of four observed for one minute each. 5. Go a mile in twelve minutes at scout's pace about fifty steps running and fifty walking, alternately. 6. Use properly knife or hatchet. 7. Prove ability to build a fire in the open, using not more than two matches. 8. Cook a quarter of a pound of meat and two potatoes in the open without the ordinary kitchen cooking utensils. 9. Earn and deposit at least one dollar in a public bank. 10. Know the sixteen principal points of the compass. First-Class Scout To become a first-class scout, the second-class scout must pass the following tests: 1. Swim fifty yards. 2. Earn and deposit at least two dollars in a public bank. 3. Send and receive a message by semaphore, or American Morse, or Myer alphabet, sixteen letters per minute. 4. Make a round trip alone (or with another scout) to a point at least seven miles away (fourteen miles in all), going on foot or rowing boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed. 5. Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or snake bite; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; demonstrate artificial respiration. 6. Prepare and cook satisfactorily, in the open, without regular kitchen utensils, two of the following articles as may be directed. Eggs, bacon, hunter's stew, fish, fowl, game, pancakes, hoe-cake, biscuit, hardtack or a "twist," baked on a stick; explain to another boy the methods followed. 7. Read a map correctly, and draw, from field notes made on the spot, an intelligible rough sketch map, indicating by their proper marks important buildings, roads, trolley lines, main landmarks, principal elevations, etc. Point out a compass direction without the help of the compass. 8. Use properly an axe for felling or trimming light timber; or produce an article of carpentry or cabinet-making or metal work made by himself. Explain the method followed. 9. Judge distance, size, number, height and weight within 25 per cent. 10. Describe fully from observation ten species of trees or plants, including poison ivy, by their bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, or scent; or six species of wild birds by their plumage, notes, tracks, or habits; or six species of native wild animals by their form, color, call, tracks, or habits; find the North Star, and name and describe at least three constellations of stars. 11. Furnish satisfactory evidence that he has put into practice in his daily life the principles of the scout oath and law. 12. Enlist a boy trained by himself in the requirements of a tenderfoot. Checking with the later requirements from late teens, and early 20's, not too much was changed. (referred to 1911, 1913, 1914, 1917, & 1925 BSHB's). Tenderfoot remained the same, and only minor things changed in 2ndC and 1stC. One of the things we should take note of, is that "starting a fire" NEVER required using anything but "two matches". The other no match skills were discussed and encouraged as additional skills, but were never an actual requirement. This, of course, reflects the use of "commonly available" technology of the period. The same is reflected in some of the merit badges of the period, which changed with the improvements of the period, and of course, first aid, which had many ideas then that would be cause for serious alarm today, or at least good laughs. Think rolling a drowning victim on a barrel, or using tourniquets for snake bite. Also, in the early period, it was important to know about runaway horses and mad dogs, as that was a common problem then, and much less was known about rabies. Should we still be teaching these things? Of course not. Finally, just for info, B.P. introduced the British version of Cubbing in 1916. "He" saw the need for the younger boy program even then. Perhaps some individuals need to get out of the forest of misconception and actually look at the trees.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Anyone note the mention that Bachman is talking about running now? Likely won't actually happen; but cannot believe she even would talk about it. JMO

We live in Southern California where wild fire is an almost constant threat. But, building a fire lay, which is a requirement at the lower level, can be done in a barbecue pit or similar location, outside the fire areas. While there is a note that a fire need not be actually lit, it is reasonable to expect them to, though there is no need to build a full blown fire to meet the requirement; simply prepare and lay it correctly, light it until it is obvious it could be built up in proper conditions, and put it out. Obviously, water or extinguishers should be on hand if necessary. Not sure why we continue to make things more difficult than needed. There are work a rounds for almost any situation with a little imagination and effort. JMHO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

This was used as a commissioner award back in the late 60's or early 70's, sort of like the current Quality Unit. The unit had to meet certain requirements to be a "AA", double A, unit. Hope this answers your question.

"Sorry, the requested page has expired. Please email support if you believe this message has been received in error." This is the message I am now getting when I check the link I have kept for the legal site, which included details on law suits and so on. Had not been an entry since May, but that was not uncommon. Hope they update it and find a way to keep it more current, yet have the archives available.

In our council, these positions were a disaster; most of us would relate the breakdown of the districts to forcing this on us, and making us go from 6 districts to 2. This broke the district volunteer structure, and we have never recovered, even though we went back to the old arrangement. Of course, we have not had a full complement of executives in at least 10 years, and the ones we have are terribly overworked and stressed. That relates to cost of living in our area, one of the highest in the country, and also to the economy. But we persevere.

Interesting side note; there was a far earlier "Field Book" published prior to the one by GBB from 1948, and its followers. It was made available in a Lefax format around 1920, and had all the basic requirements and related reference material available in small print, but usable form. The segments could be purchased , separately, as desired, and later, there were non BSA items made by other publishers that fit in the small, pocket size six ring Lefax binder. BSA made covers, with the scout symbol, in various materials. These items are occasionally available on eBay, and are fascinating in their detail. But, GBB's version is still the best all in one outdoor resource ever published by the BSA, in my opinion.

Some interesting comments from a couple of net discussions about super heroes and Boy Scouts, including an excellent explanation of the often used comment of someone being "a Boy Scout". ----------------------------------------------------------------- Comics historian Allan Holtz has unearthed what he believes to be the very first serious adventure comic. In a 2002 issue of Hogan's Alley magazine (named after Richard Outcault's seminal early work, of course), Holtz described his almost accidental recent discovery, in a microfilmed archive of The Philadelphia Leader, of Bobby the Boy Scout (no relation) which predated any other known example of the genre by years. The Leader shouldn't, by the way, be confused with the same city's Ledger, a far more prominent paper whose syndicate had handled Lady Bountiful, Somebody's Stenog and more. The Leader was small and obscure, and very much not the sort of paper you'd expect to be the only source of anything interesting in the way of cartoon history. Holtz traced Bobby's strip back to its beginning, on Monday, August 21, 1911. The Boy Scouts of America had been incorporated only a year earlier, tho the scouting movement had been gathering strength for several years prior to the incorporation. Bobby embodied all the traditional scouting virtues trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly etc. He was also athletic, heroic, and all the things an adventure hero ought to be. If a boy didn't have Bobby's qualities chances are, he wanted them. Despite Bobby's youth, he repeatedly foiled criminal plots, performed daring rescues, and otherwise behaved in a thoroughly exemplary manner always aided, of course, by his Boy Scout training. Bobby the Boy Scout was only occasionally credited. When it was, the signature read F.E. Johnson. Johnson was a staff artist on the Leader, but is not known to have done any other work in comics. It was a reliable, six-times-a-week daily, which, only four years since A, Mutt had become the first such reliable daily, still wasn't a universal trait among weekday comics. It ran for at least five years, but from all indications, was long gone by the time adventure strips became common. If it was ever syndicated, or even published in a single other paper, evidence of such publication has yet to be found. So is this, indeed, the first serious adventure comic? Who knows? I think that whether being called a "boy scout" is 1) an insult, 2) a term of endearment, or 3) a compliment, is entirely subjective; and I can see the usage of the term (to describe things other than actual boy scouts), could have begun as any or all of the three, although I lean towards glib insult; and it's use probably began not long after Boy Scouts itself began, long predating Superman. -------------------------------------------------------------- I think the term "boy scout" describes moral character: an earnestness to do the right thing; an earnestness that could either be thought of as youthful when viewed with a positive light, or immature or naive when viewed from a negative light. I think Boy Scouts, with their psuedo-military culture, also conjures an association with discipline and respectfulness (again from a positive light), or The Establishment, rule-following, and squareness (from a negative light).

I too do not understand the comments about the outdoors part of the program. If anything, there are more outdoor opportunities and activities today than there were when I was a scout in the late 50's and early 60's; and far more high adventure events. Scout camp though could revert back a bit to more focus on camping, and less merit badge emphasis. Also, National should consider finding ways to not lose more local scout camps, developing ways to support smaller camps that still serve the local councils, but are not able to support themselves due to size and location. There also needs to be a way to help smaller troops compete with the juggernaut troops that have super programs with which the small units cannot compete for membership. One other thing that needs attention, is taking the pressure off of executives to constantly increase dollars and unit membership, as it demoralizes them, and makes it harder to keep them long enough to develop beyond the initial training levels, where they are more effective. And in some areas, they need to supplement local pay levels for lower level execs to meet the high cost of living. Finally, we need to find ways to accentuate the positives of scouting in the local communities. Almost everyone I speak with is more positive than negative about the organization, even those with reservations about policies. But, we need to get past the press' tendency to constantly bash the BSA, or just ignore them. We almost all have had the same comments about why do they mention so and so was a scout, or Eagle Scout as part of a headline or lead-in to a story, but you have a hard time finding anything about the huge contributions of scouting to the communities through troop projects and Eagle projects. Even , when you give them the info, they often do not use it.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Lots of interesting comic material, both classic and recent, related to scouting in some way. I have gathered graphics from many for my archive. But Ihave not often been able to afford the best, or most unusual, such as Roy Powers or Superboy. Do have the entire Little Scouts series and hardback, as well as most of the Casper covers and ads. Still hoping to get a Dennis the Menace; but get outbid when they show occasionally. Maybe after christmas I will start sharing a few graphics on the Facebook site.

Since I have not figured out how to post graphics here, so please look at the group Facebook page for covers of a couple of comics; one is SUPERBOY, and the other one 1941 edition of ROY POWERS, EAGLE SCOUT.

It has been that way for years. You simply write two checks, or one to cover the two together, but ring them separately. We have done it that way for the past 3 years, even adding in the Quality Unit patches; just rang them separately. Not really sure what your question is.

Yes, we need moderators on occasion. For the most part, I have little problem with their decisions. This thread just seemed silly to me though, thus my rambling post near the start.

Its last throes, but yes, technically. Our support of the our future allies in Europe was already starting to draw us out of the worst of it, but it really was not quite over then.

If used as an aide by the counselor, then they are fine. But, you need to not only have them fill them out, but then go through and discuss points of the things that require that. I have occasionally told a boy to redo and be prepared to show actual knowledge and understanding of things written on a worksheet. Gee, I wonder if that is why I get fewer scouts than I did before worksheets became common? Actually think it is because so many troops seem to have their own counselors for all the Eagle badges, and the most common open choice. Bottom line is, they are a tool, like any other source.

Well Ed, you certainly seem to get "chided" often enough here. Make sure you keep a few for your potatoes. You might want to try chives as well.

Well, I just do not know what to think about all this, but I do feel that the discussion's comments on both sides leave something out that renders them of questionable value and so I cannot really weigh in well, due to my misgivings about the veracity of most of the statements made; so I guess I will wait and see if anything appears that can open my mind to accepting one comment or another; but not likely, as it is just too "fuzzy logical" in its presentation from all facets of the discussion, so let us simply agree, or disagree, but take it all as "a grain of salt"; so I am off to try and find meaty content on how to be a Scouter in all ways and manner. Merry Christmas; if you are skeptical of Christmas, then Happy Holiday; just remember that the word Christmas includes the real "Reason for the Season".

In case anyone here is interested, there is a Facebook group for this site; see below. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=6305356&ref=name#!/group.php?gid=172739770499

OGE; The outrage is where the most of them are. That is where we get the major problems, and where all but Arizona seem unable to "listen" to their constituents and do something about it. I just don't get how our state government can somehow think allowing these individuals to continue availing themselves of all these benefits. And I certainly do not understand the idea behind the "Dream Act". How are these people more important than our own "legal", but less wealthy citizens? I am all for education, but not as an added burden on me, my family, and the bankrupt state.

Back around 1960 or so, we had two students that lived above Yucca Valley, Ca. in a spot called Pioneertown, an old movie set for B westerns. They would ride their horses down the canyon to Yucca and leave them corralled, catch the bus to high school in 29 Palms 35 miles away, and then ride them back up in the late afternoon. Guess they must have had an arrangement of some sort wherever they left the horses during the day; but, cannot hardly imagine that today.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Responsibility? That only applies to others, not me!? Another idea that has become outdated, joining "common sense", its cousin.

The public overwhelmingly supports repealing Congress!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vol; Only one piece of the Health bill was tentatively ruled unconstitutional, not the whole bill. I say tentatively, because it will surely be appealed and eventually likely end up in the SCOTUS, very possibly with other parts of its whole. But, as has been pointed out, do not expect the entire bill to be negated, as almost no one would want to eliminate the "pre-existing" part, or kids to 25, now that they are in place. JMO

Yet, at almost every school in which I have subbed the past ten years, there are kids that wait for hours for a parent or someone to pick them up. They have to sit in the office until the ride comes. And on a few occasions, I know the school has had to call youth protection authorities, as no one can be found. Meanwhile, out on the playground, they are no longer allowed to play tag or anything else that requires "touching" or possible better physical conditioning in the child to succeed. They still play dodge ball though in most schools, but I have not seen a school or park with a "see-saw" or "teeter-totter" in years; and they either have removed swings, or put in rubber beneath, while banning bailing out or going higher than about a third of an arc. Kids still do walk and ride bikes, skateboards, and scooters at most of the schools, if they are in 4th and above; but there are not very many that do. Of course, in scouts, I have seen so much over protective stuff in the last 10 years, that I simply shrug my shoulders and tell a parent that we cannot guarantee this or that, but we will not allow any real danger. Sigh.