skeptic

hops: I love it. Thanks for the real eye opener. Never thought of it from the perspective of individual students. Send it to your local pols. If any actually respond, perhaps they might try to move positively. But don't hold your breath.

Not sure about your question; the Medal of Merit has no age limit. It is worn by anyone who has or had earned it, if they choose to do so. A scout would be encouraged to wear it, rather than the medal, except in formal events; just like the religious awards.

I will compromise on the idea. Only scouters who earned First Class prior to 1950 can wear one. That was when the earning of it was the most intensive, and when it was still considered to be the real highest rank, while the others were simply acknowledgements of more merit badges. It was not until after WWII that National registered scouts as Star, Life, or Eagle; it was First Class with merit badges.

It is a unit award which recognizes the previous year's completion. My understanding is that "all" uniformed troop members wear it for the year it is in place, 2011. It should be removed the following year and replaced with whatever the new recognition might be, or left off if not earned this year. No one should be wearing the previous years' patches with others beneath them. Old ones go on a brag rag of some sort, or in a book, or wherever you put them.

Gentlemen and Ladies: Why is it that so many that post on things here seem to only focus on perceived negatives of the subject thread? I suspect that a large percentage denigrating NESA already have not even bothered to actually look at the NESA site, or make the effort to find the possibilities it offers. Here is the link to the site. There are two sections; and yes one, with a few more items of interest, requires actual membership. http://nesa.org/index.html While I have been a life member for many years, deciding it was a good investment when it was $100 or a bit more, the actual cost is very low, even without life membership. Besides the scholarship support, it has the "potential" to be a truly viable instrument in councils, and camp support. They are working on improving it, and have done so. Yes, the changes are glacial, and often frustrating, but they move forward. The networking "possibilities" are potentially large, especially for younger members with more ability or desire to move about. The magazine revamp is very good, and has become far more interesting. There are areas in which they have tried to make it even more useful; but so far they have not really become particularly viable; but they can be. As far as local NESA goes, those councils that have had the right people with the right foresight utilize the chapters for a myriad of support for the council programs. If your council does not have an active chapter, perhaps you could be the one to drag it into existence, rather than **** about how much of a waste of time it is, or a rip off. "On my honor, I will do my Best". "To obey the SCOUT LAW". etc. Maybe we can all do a bit better to think about what these words and ideas mean, and then work to do "OUR BEST" wherever we may serve, and quit finding fault with things, rather than working to make them better. JMO; off the soapbox.

If the spouse took it, then could they help the other, assuming it is an issue either with difficulty reading the screens or using the technology? Lots of ways to possibly deal with it, but they need to understand why it is necessary for their doing what they hope to do. Definitely you should have a one on one to determine the exact problem.

Wait a minute; I thought the "Elites" were a late 50's or early 60's duwop group. You mean it isn't?

Desert; Well said.

Much of education is simply practice. Yet, the practice they need, especially in the formative years, is not focused in the right place. Rote has its place. Knowing the multiplication table from memory is far superior to allowing a chart as a crutch. Learning some rules of grammar and how to spell by memory is not a bad thing. But, many curriculum's dwell far too much on making kids the so called modern methods which often just confuse kids. Another issue is the current idea that somehow average is not acceptable. The standard bell curve no longer applies, as grade inflation is almost forced on the teachers. How dare they grade kids with the grade they actually earned. Too many parents seem to think that their child has to always be on top; and this discourages a lot of kids and makes them afraid to even try. This extends beyond school. I see it in scouting too, in that scouts are far less willing to simply do things on their own.

Certainly can help give a broader perspective on the scout. On the other hand, the query would need to be very generic and allow for flexibility of opinion. In some respects, such a question would do more to see how the scout thinks, than "what" he thinks. Also depends on the age of the interviewee; think the older ones would likely be better subjects for such searching, as they are more mature, theoretically. JMHO

Perhaps someone might consider making it "humble pie"??!!

Let them wear them; who cares, as long as the uniform is neat and more or less proper. I would discourage them if they are directly involved in the presentation of flags; simply have them take them off for the ceremony, then put them on if they want afterward. No big deal. JMHO

In my opinion, the "mystique" is nothing more than, as Lisa indicates, the camaraderie garnered from working very closely with the patrol, mentored by dedicated and honorable Scouters. You get a very similar vibe if you attend a course at Philmont I think. Enthusiasm and team participation go a long way in giving Woodbadge its special place in scouting. And, yes, it generally has a kind of unique elan in its membership, even while there is the constant friendly patrol kibitzing. After all, until I became an "honorary Fox", I was only an Eagle; and Eagles swoop down and carry foxes away, don't you know? The followup to the ticket process strengthens these links to the program I think, as it perpetuates it past the initial group dynamic. And most of the time, the whole patrol knows when one of their members completes their ticket, and they often are at the beading's. Just my thoughts.

Ahhh; "reasonable". Another word that has little meaning to the overly obdurate individuals on either side of these arguments, or discussions. Reasonable expectations are one thing; but to not have any flexibility or willingness to adjust is not "reasonable".

So, what does it say about the "male mystique", in that all or almost all these responses are from male scouters?

I forgot to mention my early 50's VW Bug that I bought in Germany and drove about a year, tooling all over Bavaria. I had its brakes catch fire on the way back to our site from Munich, but a couple of very helpful locals showed up with fire extinguishers to put it out. The line was burned through, so we towed it in and I arranged to sell it for $50 to a local farmer, as I was rotating home. I parked it across the road from the garage we kept our military vehicles in, and someone forgot to leave a crew cab in gear, but left the brake off due to winter freezes. It rolled backward right into the car. There went the sale. So I signed it over to one of my buddies, and they turned it into a dune buggy and drove it all over the bombing range where we worked. I was almost jealous. Got a 66 Barracuda to replace the Chevy when I got home in 69. For an 8, it got really good mileage, about 21 on the road. Replaced it with a 76 Datsun B210 in 1976, then a new Mazda 323 in 1988 which I drove 20 years and had 205,000 miles, still getting 31 MPG. But the car was a shell by then. Now have a 2008 Honda Fit, bought new. Only have just short of 15,000 on it, as long trips have become difficult physically and financially. Interesting rides and drives. My brother's 64 Pontiac, four speed; his wife's 60 something Corvair; a 60 something VW Bus we took to Camp Chawanakee once with 5 scouts (they threatened to get out and walk going up the grade); and a tiny Rambler we stuffed 5 football players in once, along with the 6 foot+ driver. Also drove my parent' 56 Pontiac wagon; it was that awful flesh color so popular back then for a while. Actually was a pretty good car. No seat belts in any of those early vehicles; and I raced a few times on the long desert roads with sand shoulders. Recently thought about what would have happened should I have hit the sand at around 110 I did once. The Gods were with me I guess. Also was riding in a crew cab moving van in 62 that was blown over in a desert sand storm. Just glad the door did not come open, as I would have been under the truck instead of just bruised up a bit. Ah, youthful memories; funny how we often forget how fortunate we sometimes were.

Showing our ages I bet if we answer this question. I began driving in a maroon 51 flat head Ford manual on the column. My brother left it at home when he went in the navy; he had chopped the front, added glass packs with two sets of drag pipes. It was the loudest car in the basin (Morongo Basin), and I was always dodging cops. I had to pay half the insurance and registration, as well as all the maintenance; and I also had to give it up to him if he came home. Good thing was, he seldom came home, and when he did, he had his own Chevy, though he still would take the Ford out and hot rod. First car I owned was a 57 Chevy Belair 3 speed with a 283 Corvette engine. Put the stick on the floor with a Hurst synchro-loc, went to White Front and got chrome reverse wheels and moonies, put a Covico steering wheel on it, and joined the local car club, The Dusters. Then went in the Air Force and my parents sold the car because "it was in the way and an eyesore" where it was stored on blocks. You would have to see the house to understand the irony of that. So, when I came home after 3 years in Germany, I had to buy a new car instead of finish the Chevy. Oh well; it was great at the time.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

David; Is this something that might have been in Scouting Magazine? I have quite a few paper copies of it from the 30's and so on. If there is a date to review, let me know, and I will see if there are any photos.

Am making an effort to share historical photos from my archive gleaned from the net over the past few years. Posting them on the Scouter Facebook page if you are interested. Enjoy.

Just curious; isn't the male "mystic" the guy on the top of the mountain?

While we do not have the same cold weather issues of those in other parts of the country, we still do have below freezing on occasion at our winter camps, and of course snow days too. All camps and trips in cold weather should have prep and planning, including a thorough review of hypothermia symptoms, and what to do. This includes trying to make everyone aware that keeping an eye on their buddies and others is important as well. Too often, the victim has little or no awareness he has a problem. And of course adults need, as noted, to assure boys are not ignoring wet clothes and are hydrating properly. No one should be sleeping alone in severely cold weather, as they need to have others there in case they have problems. These are the times when crowded tents may be better, due to body heat accumulation; and it is a good idea to have voice contact with a nearby tent. Of course, make sure they DO NOT go to bed with damp clothes, even though they may get cold briefly while changing. And, a beanie or other warm head covering, along with dry socks are a must, as well as proper insulation beneath their bag AND tent. One other thing that helps, is to try and make sure they all urinated before bed if at all possible, as that can be a real problem in the middle of the night if it is really cold out. Prepare, use common sense, and have fun.

So, then it is even MORE important for those in the trenches to try and assure a quality program, including "real" skills and leadership growth. There is no reason to not take the high level performance as a troop goal, rather than aim at the minimum. Frankly, I sometimes wonder why some on here are still involved, if they are; as they certainly do not seem to be getting any joy or fun out of it based on their bitterness. Hopefully they do not pass that attitude to scouts, if they are still actually involved. JMHO

Few council executives make the COR's to be actively involved, as it would possibly detract from their hand picked group of supporters; the same may be the case with district chairs, though ours certainly IS involved on the exec board. Reality is that should most COR's actually participate in exec board decisions, many things might change. It is really too bad that so few do.

Being familiar with both, as I took it originally in the 80's, then was on the transitional 21st staff as a guide, I see pro's and con's to both. But, at least in the two courses in which I was involved, the real knowledge and growth was the patrols, which is still the same, other than being more mixed perhaps due to all various program participants being mixed. Functioning as a patrol, and becoming a close knit group, is the basis for the rest, whether the focus is more on cerebral leadership skills, or traditional pioneering skills, or a combo of them. And the morale and knowledge support continues during the ticket process in most cases. Most participants, it seemed to me, learned as much or more from fellow patrol members. They both were beneficial to those taking them if the participant took the "intent" to heart, and followed through. The few who are "so" negative towards the new course appear to often be the same ones who have "half empty glasses" in many of the other discussions. There is not absolute in any training material or course. We take away what we internalize and are willing to put to reflective evaluation as to its worth. JMO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Hawkrod; On the other hand, if did earn the rockers, he accomplished something he could "only" do there. So, I would think that would make up for the fewer merit badges, especially if he had a great time and was exposed to unusual things. Either way, finding that fine line can be hard. Good luck.