skeptic

Still do not know where these large quantities of scouts are that "do not camp". Unless you are insistent that the only real camping is to hike in, then I would say 95%+ troops camp, and 60-70% camp almost monthly, or other similar outdoor day activities. Many do more than one a month; and the "super troops" usually do two or three major high adventure activities as well. If the "scouts do not camp" complainers are referring to cubbing, then they are misplacing their concern. But in our area, cub camping is not uncommon on the family level; and most do day hikes to nature related activities a number of times a year. Yes, it is possible for a boy scout to squeak by to Eagle without any significant camping experience; but unless the troop is simply ignoring "all" the requirements, even he will have had more than most kids not in the program.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Merlyn; It continues to amaze me how you can twist anything to fit your point of view and crusade. You appear to miss my point completely. And, as I said, it is my opinion. Has nothing to do with "your" viewpoint; only that "threats" are used as tools to scare groups and government, who have limited funds for such things, into not defending the cases due to cost. Many of the "settled" suits would end up being won if they were to go to the end; but since the loser does not have to pay the defense, it is just too costly and time consuming. I have no hope that you will actually acknowledge my point. And this will be my only response to you regarding it, as even this is really pointless. Good day.

"(though usually the threat of a lawsuit is enough). " Ah, here is the bludgeon so popular with the PC groups, especially with government. Also a favorite tactic by questionable lawyers seeking settlements against perceived deep pockets. Why? Because they know it is generally far less expensive to settle than stand up to them. The need to change the way these suits are handled has been bandied about already. Seems we would be far better off with the litigant responsible for "all" costs, should they lose. And judges need to have the power, reason, and fortitude to throw many of them out to start with. Again, JMHO.

From my perspective, BSA is on much firmer ground on the spiritual issue, as its removal basically makes BSA just another youth group. The idea that you can allow the small minority of non spiritual people to be members (assuming they are open about their beliefs) is counter to the very foundation of Scouting. The other other issue is more difficult, as it is something that really should simply not be on the table. That is why I continue to feel the decision should be the CO's, as it is their unit. Those that might allow it would likely remain very small, or simply fade away, in my opinion (again, making the assumption that somehow it is an "avowed" individual). When push comes to shove, no matter what the non involved PC opinions are, when confronted directly, most would quietly find a reason to remove their child from the group, or at least I feel that is the likely outcome. But, similar responses would likely happen with other "avowals" of generally uncomfortable life choices and interactions with those individuals, whether as leaders, or simply direct contact. But, as we have said, we are not going to solve the issue here. And continuing to rehash it is not particularly useful. At some point, hopefully, the Gay issue will evolve, just as the "Negro" issue did, and other less noted conflicts within the outreach. I fully expect BSA to incorporate fully coed groups sooner than later, but with the choice of all of one gender, or mixed. These are just opinions and observations from close to 50 years in the program. Others will differ; and that is their right.

Moose; I suspect that in most councils, the idea that COR's will actually take their job seriously is the SE's biggest nightmare. Sorry to say that, but in rare instances, COR's acting in majority, have been know to force major changes, and even firing of SE"s and other lower professional staff. Of course, most COR's either do not understand they have a vote, or just do not really care. They can be difficult to even locate at times. End user, the kids, is what would be a great "ideal". An executive board made up of "involved" individuals for the most part, rather than "political" members would go a long way to alleviate many issues I think. Our annual meetings seldom have more than maybe 30% of the total board, past or being seated, at the event. It is obvious who really are the leaders and go to members. Fortunately at the moment, we appear to have people at the top who are actually "involved". But there are a lot of fuzzy concerns that get fuzzy answers in the council. I worry about what may be hiding just beneath the surface; but I only have longevity, not financial or political clout. We persevere, trying to focus on the kids.

We have their materials and uniforms in our store. Apparently we are one of the few places in Southern California to have them. Store manager says she has sold things to people from as far away as the Bay area. But it seems to be slowly growing based on the interest shown.

"Scouting USA"; now there is a throwback! Who else remembers that from the past? Seems to me that it was coined at a time when there was a possible merge with Girl Scouts sometime around 1980, give or take a few years.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

"Seriously, do any of you have BS Troops asking their SM's why the Jr. High girls can't come around?" It has happened on a number of occasions. Recently by an 11 year old (almost 12).

Vicki; On the other side of the coin are the Koshare Inidans in La Junta, Colorado. If you are not familiar with them, here is a link to them. http://www.kosharehistory.org/index.html The group has been in existence since the 40's, and has worked so hard to develop authentic programs that a number of tribes have honored them directly, and some even given permission for them to do dances that normally would not be acceptable outside the actual tribal customs. Take a look.

Just came into possession of this patch, which appears to be an F1(?), from what I can find on the net. Any info on it someone can give me? Know it is from the early 60's, as the other patches are from that period, as are the cards. Thanks.

Guess we need to revisit "Scouting with the Neckerchief". Now that they have the full sized ones again, they can be used for much of what was done once, such as slings and roller bandages. A few years back, National put out a reprint of the booklet, along with a full sized squared neckerchief. Have one in the drawer with my other "stuff". Of course I already had the booklet and older neckerchiefs. Great booklet though.

Not sure your mile swim time would be longer than my most recent ones. (:-}> In 2009 I did my 25th "official" summer camp mile; it was around 1 hour and 20 minutes or so; but I finished it, and never stopped, like some of the younger swimmers did (fudging it from my perspective, by hanging on the edge, or putting feet down briefly in the shallow end), and I was 65 then. Did not do it last year. Best time was under 40 minutes I think in Shaver Lake in 65 degree water. Did a three in the Pacific, two at Emerald Bay, and one at Cherry Valley. Half have been in pools or restricted swimming docks. Will see if I feel like trying it at camp this summer.

We have attended a dozen or more camps over the years I have been an adult leader, and few kids ever completely flunk the test. Some have to go back on occasion. I had one camp where I was seriously concerned about the test's worth, as I watched some kids that simply floundered the whole way, stopping at the shallow end of the pool, yet still getting passed. Yes, I did speak to the staff about the concerns, and hopefully they took my concerns seriously. But, the biggest problem we have with tests is the tendency of the kids to think it is a race. For good swimmers, that is not an issue; but for the large majority, especially younger boys, it can be difficult. Part of that is that most of our camps are in the mountains above 4,000 feet, while we live on the coast. Also, many of the testing areas are cold, especially those in lakes where temps can be in the 60's. Between the thinner air and the muscle taxing cold, they tire really fast. I try to coach my boys to remember to go slowly, especially when they start out. Of course, most boys "think" they are good swimmers, but unless they swim with their face in the water and know how to breath, they have a ways to go. The good thing is that they can retest as often as necessary; and for some, that is a goal. But, even non-swimmers can play in restricted areas. I would like to see a separate session scheduled for non-swimmers, and another for beginners, so they might actually leave camp with new confidence and greater skill. But most camps have trouble simply staffing the actual classes in swimming and life saving.

From Beavah's last post. This rang a bell with me. This statement could easily be applied to much of our own country. And it is heading even closer to this in many segments. "Low, or poor education" is becoming a huge problem through out the country. And much of it is caused by poverty and cliquish attitudes, especially in the urban centers. And while we might not actually call it tribalism, the trend toward "little this, or little that" neighborhoods, and the huge upsurge in gangs, equate to it more than we might want to admit. Add to that the fears generated by media about certain religious groups, and the growth of militias and far "either side" groups and rhetoric, and we have major challenges right here "in the U.S. of A.". I have thought for a while now that there is a certain amount of irony that there is so much paranoia about Al Queda, or similar terrorist groups; and that we need to knock them out "before" they get a foothold here. Yet, we mostly just give lip service to the already rampant terrorism we have here in the form of very violent and cruel gangs throughout the nation, especially in the largest urban area. What is really scary is that they are becoming more common in smaller areas as well. Yet, once more, these areas of police protection are often the first to get the axe in budget fights. If we spent even a quarter of the funds and effort thrown at the out of country fears, we might actually see some results. But I am old and out of touch. I most likely just do not see the real picture, or understand.

While the coed experience with girls being flirts and boys acting foolish might be an issue sometimes, especially initially in a new program, it would likely only last briefly. Once the group bonds and spends enough time together, most of this would evaporate, and they would likely be mostly like siblings and cousins. Granted, there would be a few exceptions; but for the most part, familiarity would ease the problem. You see that happen in other groups of that age that are coed. Often the girls become more focused, probably trying to prove they can do whatever the boys can; and the boys are a bit less willing to completely look like idiots in front of the girls, or to be seen as less capable. And, of course, there is still the option of all girl or all boy troops, even though they "could be" coed. Or, you have all one gender or the other in patrols, with dual upper leadership. Lots of options. At some point it is likely to happen.

Why does almost anything posted or presented have so many posters that find the need to be negative about all or part of the subject? Use what you find helpful, and ignore the rest. But lets see if we can start to look for the positives, and quit bashing everything. It is getting simply tiresome. And it is certainly not showing Scout Spirit. JMHO

Sorry about not linking; just forgot that "I" have NESA on my favorites. Thanks for posting it. Desert; I find a number of them a bit clumsy at least, and yes, even odd to some extent. But, they are jumping off points. Have seen a number of ceremonies that have been pasted from two or three of these. Whatever the scout and his family feels is good for them.

Oh my; NESA just did something useful. :-}> NESA Presents the Eagle Scout Award Suggested Ceremonies Booklet Out of print for more than 20 years, NESA is happy to bring this useful information to you. Heres what is in the updated piece: Eagle Scout Awards Suggested Ceremonies BookletThe Eagle Scout Pledge Ceremony 1: The Challenge Ceremony 2: History of the Eagle and Man Ceremony 3: Lighting the Eagle Trail Ceremony 4: The Light of the Eagle Eagle Scout Light Box Ceremony 5: The Light of the Eagle (alternate wording) Ceremony 6: An Eagle Scout The Eagle Scout (poem) Ceremony 7: Order of the Arrow Ceremony 8: The Voice of the Eagle Ceremony 9: The Picture Ceremony Ceremony 10: Parents Ceremony Eagle Scout Recognition Dinner Ceremony 11: Citizenship Ceremony Sample Mayoral Citation for Citizenship Ceremony Ceremony 12: Alternate Opening Ceremony Ceremony 13: Closing Ceremony A huge Eagle Scout thanks goes out to Aloha Council (Honolulu, Hawaii) Scouter Kevin Doyle, who used OCR software to scan the old booklet, then he edited it and designed what you see here.

You likely can use any comfortable material, as long as you model the design after the vintage style, and have the correct color. For his size, you may have no other choice; but they do show up on eBay in larger sizes. But, they also tend to get pricey if they are complete and have anything collectible on them. But, someone on this board may point you in the right direction. You might consider reposting in the collecting thread, or the uniform thread, just to get more viewings.

Yep; have had parents tell me they cannot find any of the info. Tell them to look in the handbook, on the inside covers, and they act as if that is not feasible. Maybe they are visually regressed, or cannot read. Makes you want to scream sometimes.

Brent: Okay, I tried to find specifics relating to the wear of uniforms in the National Rules and Bylaws. But all I could locate were the various protection clauses, which apply to other threads on these boards, including revocations, selling unauthorized items, or selling things obtained without proper authority. They do refer to "as referenced" in various publications. So, you may be right in your statement regarding all or none. I suspect we might find contradictions between some manuals and other paper publications, depending on whom actually published them, and how old they are. Certainly we should strive to get boys to be properly uniformed. But we should not make it an issue that will turn them away, either by embarrassment or lack of ability to pay. JMHO

Directly from the actual Rules and Regulations; found while looking for any specifics regarding actually wearing the uniform. Could not find "any", other than referencing other publications. But, this certainly seems to deal directly with the question in this thread. "Protection and Use of Badges and Insignia; National Rules and Regulations. Clause 9: All badges and insignia shall remain the property of the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or its duly authorized representative."

So, while I realize many would say it is not relevant, uniforms "are not required", period; they are only recommended and encouraged. No where in the actual governing documents is having a uniform specified. Now, if one does have one, certainly every effort should be made to have it worn correctly, and to have whatever belongs on it placed properly. But, again, there is no restriction on partial uniforms either, as that is viewed in many cases as better than none at all. Early on, scouts were encouraged to "earn" their uniform by various means; or to simply earn a part, such as the shirt, traditional smokey style hat, or just the neckerchief. Many units arranged to have neckerchiefs at least for their troops. Old photos very often show scouts with only a neckerchief, and possibly a hat. Our uniform bank does hardly ever has enough pieces to make complete uniforms possible, but can start a boy often. Sizing is often the problem, as the only ones coming in are smalls, and boys already there have grown, and may be the donors looking to find one to fit. Granted, we are the oldest and poorest troop in town, serving the lowest income area, and always struggling to stay viable. The cool thing is that we have a number of very vintage, and one antique uniform we use for display. Last night we had two boys in complete uniforms, one from the closet and that dates to the 50's, even with the red piping,and one current. They looked good. One had shirt up, including a neatly worn necker; three had just shirts (one always has to be reminded to tuck it in). I am almost always in complete uniform unless something unusual is going on, though I wear an older early 80's shirt to meeting normally, saving the more current last issue shirt for formal use. Like most of us around for a while, I have a number of shirts, each with different things on them. This "is" an improvement over last year; so I guess we are making progress. Three new boys, still have yet to get uniforms, but the grandfather of one, and mother of another said they hoped to go and get them soon. Whatever they wear, they are welcome. Whatever they wear, they seem to usually have fun. That is the important part. JMHO

Kinney was featured over the weekend in the PARADE MAGAZINE. He is shown as a 13 year old boy scout in a photo, and he is currently a cub leader for his son. Does anyone know if he became an Eagle; have not been able to find the info on line yet. May just be looking the wrong place. Just curious, as we all understand, or I hope we do, that Eagle is great, but not a complete reflection of scouting and its effect on youth.

See link below to read about Jack Pape, Life Scout who just won the 2011 American Spirit Award. What a great positive piece. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2011/03/22/boy-scout-jack-pape-wins-2011-american-spirit-award/