skeptic

And, the reality that "justice" is not a finite concept and ambiguous for the most part. Those harmed or at least feeling harmed always will say "justice" is not served, no matter what. Our legal system is such that the lawyers can play games for decades in some cases, certainly for months at least, and whatever happens, "justice" is not served for somebody, and the balance of Her scales will not be therre.

Only some time and patience will tell. I see some concern in finding new directions, not only for fund raising, which is an absolute, but also pointing at the inclusion of modern tech, as the youth now understand to some level, to open the program, while also mentioning aspects of the outdoors as being important. New and old can, and really must, be married. And, somehow we need to find that positive interface with the public again. My experience is that it is there, just in a hibernation mode, if you will. When we have our rag tag group in public, we seldom het any negative feedback, rather mostly positive. And that is now coming again from younger adults, not just the elderly. These people appear to appreciate young people showing patriotism and doing positive community things. We can continue to rue the mistakes and poor choices or find a new direction. Some it appears do not countenance that direction, or simply are too jaded. This may be a start, or it may again fall flat. Lets hope as the next new year looms, it will move in the positive direction. Live the Twelve, and set the examples.

Not exactly; there has been discourse on this Forum of this very thing. Few other groups were willing to get involved with shared info, and the IV files were never secret, other than the legal needs of the time,, just not publicized. Again, this is simply a twisting of the story while leaving out much of the peripheral info. And it also ignores the changes over time that relate to the whole thing. BSA has always been an integral part of our society, but it does not control those outside it, or even completely control those within. Guidelines are easily ignored, and many people choose to avoid conflict and bad interactions when so confronted. And, as we can still see here, some cannot acknowledge it is not black and white, and never will be. Too many human traits come into play, and there will never be total safety from abuse or anything else in our broader society, no matter how we try. No organization is immune to bad actions from within or without. Look at Congress, police departments, the military, Child Welfare bureaus, schools, and so on. We can only work towards that ideal of safety and security, but we can neve guarantee it.

In our area we are now trying to rally a new direction, but we are being shut down by a very unprofessional and in most of our views unqualified SE. Trouble is that we are having issues with finding anyone to whom we can go above council. We are trying to get a real gathering of COR's who CAN fire the man, but finding the contacts is difficult when the office claims they cannot share that info. Our current elect president seems to either not understand very well, or he is just a puppet, or it continues to seem. Meanwhile, our local concerned Scouters are trying to form our own program cooperative, so to speak which will allow the small units to be included in some of the program of the larger and more successful ones. On top of it all, we were told they have closed our camp and are looking to find a new option which is aimed at selling by the SE who seems to have gotten himself veto power of some type. An almost hundred year old camp that has been poorly administgrated for decades, but recently has shown huge success, even to out of area troops. But with no camp the program becomes even more difficult to run well. If anyone on these forums might have contact info that might help us in regard to our SE issues, I would appreciate a note. Thanks.

And of course, there is much of the issue in our society, liability based on a warped legal system that allows these suits, most settled due to the exorbitant cost of fighting the case. Add to that, illogical jurors who too often allow common sense to fly away when confronted with a sympathetic situation.

I do not know if our council is representative, but finding info going back is a real challenge. Digging through old charter paperwork is where I found much of the info on our unit, but it is mostly in boxes and minimally sorted in storage. If a unit does not keep its own history, finding it is a major effort, and it will literally give someone a headache trying to read old forms that are carbonized and so on. Good luck.

"quick pay"; how can one NOT understand that? In a way, that is reflective of too much of society, and of course it appears, those that opted for "the lottery" easy pick.

They are thinking dollars and ignorance on the part of too many as to the decorum and respect our Flag is due. That is the sad world in which we live where too many do not understand, or maybe do not care, about such things. The Flag Code touches on this type of thing, though it is often not clear where we step over the blurred lines of respect and avarice or misguided display concepts. The constant use of our, in theory, respectful holidays related to the Flag to have "sales" is part and parcel of this. But, there are no barriers that can enforce the Code, only those that may remind others and are willing to point it out. JMHO of course.

Locally, our Scouts participated in a number of Veterana' Day programs or recognitions. One of them was at our local county government center where Scouts acted as honor guards for Vets being recognized from each of the services, including Coast Guard. They even note the Space Force, though not sure that is ever going to be large in the short term. For our area, we actually have Vandenburg fairly close, ust up the coast. Anway, at the event we had one Gold Star family recognized, and we had two WWII Vets, one 98, and one 102. We have a photo of one of my own unit scouts shaking hands with one of them in his wheelchair. I could not help but think of the historic photos I have on file of Scouts at the Gettysburg anniversary in 1913, and a couple others of Scouts with service members. My point is, this is the real face of Scouting. That this is what we should be making a huge effort to put out there, not to brag, but to simply remind our society that this is the real face of Scouting, not sensationalize mistakes of a few sordid humans that managed to intrude on the program and harm youth. Do A Good Turn emphasizes it is not for a reward, and that is as it should be. But, are we missing the boat by not at least finding a way to make the public more aware of the silent benefits of the program, carried out under their noses? Just a thought.

Rather than sell it, rework the concept so that it is open broadly to youth other than Scouts, but also keeps the Scouting connection. It very well could bridge the BSA with the larger society in a positive way, and also stop the financial drain. We need to "again" be an integral part of society, rather than some kind of paria or afterthought. But the focus needs to revert strongly to the actual youth, and ways to push the foundational concepts to the larger society. What made the BSA so successful in its peak acceptance? It was the image that these young people, not the adults, were living to a real code of honor and were NOT self centered. Society is begging for that concept to be part of the larger culture. There are still examples of this scattered about, but the lack of putting it before the public in a meaningful way is a huge mistake. Letting the public know that Scouting is a positive influence and a major contributor to the better community is not bragging. People need to know that BSA representatives, the youth, contribute to food drives regularly, that in some areas they rebuild major camps and trails used by the broader public, that they contribute to civic ceremonies honoring veterans and so on. Our local scouts will be at the Government Center for the County on Veterans day, helping as asked with setup and seating and probably some element of the flag presentations. Scouting for Food is still a major contributor to food pantries, but also done by units throughout the year. Some do Christmas/holiday gift drives. One unit has been supplementing the Bell Ringers for a number of years in connection with their CO. Scouts are always part of local beach and park cleanup. It goes on and on, yet few in the community really "know'; this. That may be the biggest redirect. But what would I know?

I thought I had shared this, but it does not seem to be here. Some hopeful thoughts, though breath holding may be dangerous. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/11/06/five-things-you-need-to-know-about-roger-krone-the-bsas-incoming-president-and-ceo/

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/11/06/five-things-you-need-to-know-about-roger-krone-the-bsas-incoming-president-and-ceo/

Yet, the damage done by the media hype is still smearing BSA. Not sure it will ever be overcome in some parts of the public view. And sadly, the loudest voices against BSA are still pushing it. Vigilance and awareness will still not make it fail safe. It is just not possible.

Actually, in a few instance, the tool allowed removing something embedded in wood or a hard surface. But generally just use if for my hidden wine, or maybe some good olive oil.🙃

While we are well beyond "Follow Me Boys" today, and in this incident, IF there is a way to try to guide the youth, while restricting his Scouting interactions, that might be a good course. In our unit long ago we had two youth get into serious trouble with the police on the edge. As it happened both were in POR, one the SPL, the other his assistant. It was at an OA function and I got phone calls in the early morning. One parent had to go to the camp to take them home. I spent a number of hours on the phone with committee people and the council reps for clarity. The boys were removed from their POR immediately and met with a committee of parents who made a very specific way for them to move forward. The time frame was six months, and included specific actions and severe restrictions on their doing anything special, but serious attention to Spirit. No advancement during that time, apology letters to all involved in the incident, including parents and myself as SM, along with other adults involved. I had to review them monthly. Well, the ring leader, the SPL chose to ignore it all and did not follow up, dropping out instead. The other one fulfilled his "sentence" to the letter, and eventually became Eagle. At his Eagle board he would have been asked about this, but he himself brought it up almost immediately, discussing the effects the situation had on him, and how he appreciated his being put into that position of taking full responsibility. The other youth went on to get into drugs and other issues, saddly. We need to try to do what is best for all, but it is never easy, and obviously we also need parental support, which the one had and the other did not. Finding the likely best path is hard much of the time, and we may find ourselves frustrated and upset. Ultimately, we can only do what seems the best thing for all, keeping the youth and the unit in mind and hoping parents will cooperate. Knee jerk responses though are NOT usually the answer, other than for safety at the moment, like the fighting that may occur on occasion. Try to never simply "throw them away", but also to not just ignore them and their peers in the unit, and even outside it in a way. When we win one, it is wonderful, and sometimes the win may never be known, while a youth may approach you a decade or more later and shake your hand. It has happened to me, and I thought he was lost. We often make a difference and never know it I think.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/10/18/getting-to-know-glen-pounder-the-bsas-youth-protection-executive/ This is a step away from the accusatory material too often showing up, IMHO. Most importantly, Mr. Pounder, while noting huge mistakes and the need for the BSA committee, which he addresses, but he also notes the failures of the larger protection communities in the past. Take a look and please note that I am not saying what occurred in the past is okay, only that our approaches today are in need of breadth across society. And this seems a step in that direction, especially the mention of his other connections with the challenge. One thought that came to me as I was reading and listening was that in some ways, this recognition is what James West had when he took the job. The early efforts with the manual IV files were under his watch, and he was even then recognized as a leader in the protection of youth. He died in the mid forties, I believe just before the end of the War. And most of the issues today came into being after his loss. Just have to wonder if he and others in his connections might have directed us differently in those decades after the War.

I like that phrase "Be Prepared". Seems I have seen it before.😉

He has made it very clear and blasted this opinion every chance he has gotten. And likely others have agreed, but we simply do not see them. Not a good example, as he has been censured if I recollect. Still, it is just an opinion.

Perspective is in the eye of the observer, but also their mind. Blinders often appear due to previous personal bias. https://lawliberty.org/an-elegy-for-the-boy-scouts/

Here again we see the result of the concept that what goes up must go down being proven to be wrong it appears. It is just another element of our messed up culture. Everybody wants more income, and everybody expects nothing to cost more. The two do not work together. I continually have asked, for decades now, how high is up? We might ask too how low can we find ourselves falling? And that can be applied to more things than those monetary.

Reflection of our current society. Overscheduled and overwrought.

A bit late to the game, but maybe not. One of the things that was changed in the past decade or less was the required filing of an actual tour permit, which included approval, in theory, of the local council. Part of that was an endorsement validating that all drivers had the insurance needed, based on GSS and also the state in which they resided or were to go through or to. That was something that I still feel should have stayed in the mix, as it made the events be considered for that safety factor, along with guaranteeing, again in theory, the leaders were trained. I do not know why it was dropped, other than councils were not able to validate things or keep good records due to expenses ???

My maternal grandparents lived in Oklahoma in the twenties and thirties, and my GF's first wife, who passed in 1907 from medical issues after an operation, was a photographer in Walters, Oklahoma. She had begun doing local work on photos of Native Americans in the area at the time of her death. Looking back, I realize I may have missed an opportunity to shed a bit of light on the era by discussing with my GF that period, though we kids were really not aware of Mae for the most part, as it was so long past, and he chose to not talk about it for many years it seems. Now we have a good deal of material from them at the time, but we have been unable to track down much of the photography work, which was apparently in the popular postcard format of the time. I seem to remember though that Grandpa was always very supportive of the NA issus, and he lived to be 94, so saw much of the efforts in the twentieth century.

You can interpret anything as your own mind chooses. Fred is right in that was common language in the forties and fifties still, and certainly in material written earlier than that. Some people may also be drinking bitterroot tea perhaps. Me thinks your dark glasses are perhaps a little too tinted towards the dark side.

While the initial connections to Native Americans was in theory the Delaware, and all the early language is in that language, it was also common for local tribes to be connected in some way in the mid century. In the fifties and sixties, the NA image and regalia was part of the mystique that drew many youths' interest. Also, as I have noted before, at one time the entry was restricted in number, not like today when pretty much any first class member can be elected, or really just named due to no numerical barriers. I would be interested to know what the current Delaware tribe may say in regard to the traditions and continued use of parts of their language. But, in our area, we are on good terms with the local tribes and even have had smoke ceremonies at tap outs. Also, we have scouts that attend local pow wows, a few that even learn dances under the tutelage of the tribe. I am afraid much of the issue has to do with the PC approach to so much in current society, as well as the loss of that mystique and it being seen to be an honor, and not just another check mark. JMHO of course.