skeptic

Reflection of our current society. Overscheduled and overwrought.

A bit late to the game, but maybe not. One of the things that was changed in the past decade or less was the required filing of an actual tour permit, which included approval, in theory, of the local council. Part of that was an endorsement validating that all drivers had the insurance needed, based on GSS and also the state in which they resided or were to go through or to. That was something that I still feel should have stayed in the mix, as it made the events be considered for that safety factor, along with guaranteeing, again in theory, the leaders were trained. I do not know why it was dropped, other than councils were not able to validate things or keep good records due to expenses ???

My maternal grandparents lived in Oklahoma in the twenties and thirties, and my GF's first wife, who passed in 1907 from medical issues after an operation, was a photographer in Walters, Oklahoma. She had begun doing local work on photos of Native Americans in the area at the time of her death. Looking back, I realize I may have missed an opportunity to shed a bit of light on the era by discussing with my GF that period, though we kids were really not aware of Mae for the most part, as it was so long past, and he chose to not talk about it for many years it seems. Now we have a good deal of material from them at the time, but we have been unable to track down much of the photography work, which was apparently in the popular postcard format of the time. I seem to remember though that Grandpa was always very supportive of the NA issus, and he lived to be 94, so saw much of the efforts in the twentieth century.

You can interpret anything as your own mind chooses. Fred is right in that was common language in the forties and fifties still, and certainly in material written earlier than that. Some people may also be drinking bitterroot tea perhaps. Me thinks your dark glasses are perhaps a little too tinted towards the dark side.

While the initial connections to Native Americans was in theory the Delaware, and all the early language is in that language, it was also common for local tribes to be connected in some way in the mid century. In the fifties and sixties, the NA image and regalia was part of the mystique that drew many youths' interest. Also, as I have noted before, at one time the entry was restricted in number, not like today when pretty much any first class member can be elected, or really just named due to no numerical barriers. I would be interested to know what the current Delaware tribe may say in regard to the traditions and continued use of parts of their language. But, in our area, we are on good terms with the local tribes and even have had smoke ceremonies at tap outs. Also, we have scouts that attend local pow wows, a few that even learn dances under the tutelage of the tribe. I am afraid much of the issue has to do with the PC approach to so much in current society, as well as the loss of that mystique and it being seen to be an honor, and not just another check mark. JMHO of course.

While your perspective has merit, again it was a different society. I do though wonder how you did not see that similar respect and as you call it, bowing almost to the SM etc. in other youth leaders. We were expected to do what those adults said, often with little expectation other than jump and follow. Also, families were still more likely to enforce the absolute concept of do not disrespect elders and so on. But, it is really not comparing the proverbial fruits, and surely not comparative in the flow of time and societal evolution. At least they BSA had a petard on which to be impaled. Hardly anyone else did, and certainly the broader communities of the time did not, though we have all read about the suspected abuse that was found mutilated or just dead someplace. Those responses may have been the best many had at the time, and ifit was widely accepted within the community that the person may be a predator, most would look the other way, or even say "just desserts". Ultimately, we need to pay attention, follow the rules, always be vigilant, no matter who may be involved, and keep the youth foremost in our concern. Sadly, it will still occur I fear. And the images and examples in our modern society are not conducive to supporting this approach.

May I ask, what were the adults angry about? At the time it was in relation to the Dale mess, but later, it was in relation to the current issues. But, as already noted, it was totally wrong, period, especially with the kids present. My real point of course is that the vast majority of encounters are positive and reflective of the larger truth of the success of the program over time. Scouting is part of the larger society, and it will always unfortunately have its bad members and detractors. But it is their very base tenets that also put us in the headlights when things go wrong.

Again, the truth of Scouting over time. This is the real image of the program, and representative of I would suggest over 99% of those that experience it. When our unit was regularly pushing popcorn and I was one of the adults in support, I often had past unit members visit and reminisce, or simply former scouts. Many were proud of being Eagles, but just as many admitted that they just had it as a great youthful experience and learned many beneficial things. Sadly, in a few instances, someone attacked the program, and worse the youth that were there. Twice I was forced to step in and ask an adult to please refrain from the verbal harassment and not cause problems. But, overall, these were positive encounters and even once we ended up with a former member of the unit rejoining us for a while, just out of college and wanting to help. Similarly, a couple of the old timers visited our meeting and spoke of their time in the program. I might add that on one of my visits with the master historian and collector Joe Price, he told me how he came to collect while in the service in WWII. He said that he was asked to find as many Scout Handbooks and related materials, especially the they new Hillcourt Field Book, as they were used as part of the training for the men in uniform. That resulted in his fascination with collecting the material and learning about it. That was a few years back now, but I believe it was the jist of our discussion, though time can muddle things.

If we are to make a comment, can we use the right spelling please. Naught is another word for zero, pronounced not, or knot. Still, I suggest this is not a good reason to knot up our emotiona, as it really really a naught sum discussion. I suppose though we might at times be naughty and make waves. Perhaps we need to have our backsides smacked with a knotty pine paddle.

Actually the sad thing is that you are unable to find any peace or relief from your trauma. And no amount of money will ever cure that, nor accusing others of not caring or having any empathy. I pray that you may somehow find that relief and peace in the next journey.

The more legally informed might cast some light, but it surely does not appear so in this issue. If it did, we would not be watching the levels of skewing we are seeing. That would include NOT changing SOL's so that a lawyer can shop for the "right" court and state. Add consistency to my chant of "balance" and sensible and logical responses and not overly wrought emotion base on hyperbole and vague information.

I have no issue with legitimate suits, only frivolous or over the top ones that want more than is rational just because someone may feel sorry or it is the insurance company paying, or they see someone as having money. Suing for more than actual expenses, and somehow feeling you are owed an outlandish amount for "pain and suffering" or similar wording is simply dishonest from my view. IF the injury was truly due to someone being careless or ignoring common precautions, something might be rational. But the amounts are what the issue is, especially in cases where it is not clear that it was anything other than an accident. These types of law suits not only pay jackal lawyers, but they also run up the cost of valid insurance for us all.

And that is our problem in our particular litigious society and messed up legal system. Little logic in too many cases, only a view of dollar signs. Who cares if it is petty and selfish as long as someone can get money?

So, if I was skeptical about how unbalanced this entire issue has been in the media, I have to wonder why now? The lawyers are not getting enough money I suppose, and the concept that BSA errors and "cover ups" stand alone are not shown. Unless they modify this to be inclusive of "every" civic agency that chose to not follow up for whatever reason, and also on the fact that many families chose to NOT have it made public, and also list the actual redators they may then have a more comlete story. But then they would have to admit that the issue is not just a BSA problem, but societal and family based as well. The difference is that those entities either have legal protections as government entities, or they simply do not have the money to pursue. And just for info, I do not feel the BSA is blameless, only that the whole picture is radically skewed towards the "money belief" and that somehow they are the only perpetrators. We do get back to a percentage of abuse number based on long term membership over decades, one that has shown to be far lower than other comparative groups. Also, it has become obvious with this that many of the filed cases are thin at best, as the survivors only remember "something", but no specifics. I would have far less issue with this if it actually did make any real effort to go beyond the BSA and the sensationalism. JMO, so please do not start with the finger pointing that I am a black hearted hater of victims. If the lawyers, and now the media people were not making money hand over fist, it would be easier to deal with.

For all the nay sayers about NESA, just take a look at this and perhaps consider a few less decibles in your negative comments. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/08/10/eagle-scouts-receive-more-than-500k-in-nesa-scholarships/

Part of the broader issue. While your comments are indicative of some very poor decision making, it is not the whole picture over the history of the program. For some reason, the FACT that the IV files were even created should be a positive piece of this, especially since there are instances where the intent of the files did what was needed. This was at a time when few, if any other groups were even trying to find a solution. Let us not minimize the larger society's poor response and even greater evidence of hiding issues, especially where money or political power was involved. BSA is not, nor ever was the focus of this problem, only another victim that was used by the actual abusers, just as they used other groups. Just as much, if not more, fault should be found by the legal profession, our corrupt leaders, predators in most larger institutions like schools, churches, other youth serving groups. and even many familial responses. And, it is obvious that it is still a major societal issue, and BSA has made huge efforts to deal with it, including taking a lead role in trying to find viable ways that might stop some of the darkness in the larger community from intruding. But, it will never fully succeed, as it is not the whole of society, and it cannot control everything in that larger society. Trying to blame BSA for all of the larger issue is simply unreasonable and foolish. JMHO of course.

Getting any real cooperative interplay here is diffficult at best, and often very unclear as to who may be the fo to person. The execs, other than the two top ones, are gone, as is half the support staff.

In theory we are, but the charter paperwork still lists the church. We have yet to get it clear. We have an open offer from the Masons which we may yet take, but we have not been able to verify the use document works for them too.

Just think; if they still allowed supervised adult, but TLC reviews, maybe there would be less issue. And, the youth might even learn something about life and how to make rational and fair judgments. In the years when that was still the method, I do not recall but one or two instances where the youth overstepped, and in one case, we determined after review that it really was not the case.

I accept that this particular issue is not huge, but again, in respect to the history of Scouting, proper name spelling "should" be important. But, I believe grammar and spelling, espeically names of important people should be of import. At the same time, if it does not concern you, that is your right and in my view, maybe your loss as well On this forum, those that mostly criticize me are the same, and I can almost predict that response. Look past me as someone you may not feel is worth noting, but do not look past the youth who needs to see that care in writing, or speeech is important to their character and success. JMHO of course. Carry on, and maybe work on pushing the mostly positive side of Scouting. Surely our sick society could use that.

While the levity is possibly warranted, it also reflects on a serious issue in our society, in my old guy view. Spelling and grammar are important things, whether in these forums or in life. In the case of Scouting history, it seems right that the name should be properly spelled, at least to me. It reminds me a bit of the teacher that asked me why I circled mispelled words on a student's paper, even if the word was not related to the subject directly. I told her that I felt education should extend beyond the lines and subject, and that spelling was an important skill in its own right, even if it had little or nothing to do with the subject. I was not marking the student down, just drawing their attention to the importance, as I saw it. Everybody has a viewpoint, and many obviously do not agree with me. Their right. Th anks for the couple chuckles too. Interesting, as an aside, Seton did not settle on his name in print until years later, when he generally usedl Ernest Thompson Seton, or E. T. Seton. Some of his early writing has Ernest Seto Thompson on it. but the Seton was still spelled that way.

Two things. Seton is how the name is spelled. Please, if you choose to discuss the man and his family, please spell it correctly. Second; yes Campfire was indirectly a sister to BSA through Dan Beard. A while back, maybe almost ten years now, I was responded to by a Granddauter of Beard, clairifying the connection. Tos some extent, people in that era intermingled with their attempts to create healthy and viable youth groups, even on occasion sharing camps and so on. I wonder, other than clearer historical notes, how important it is, and if those that seem to waant to cast vague inuendo at times really care that those people, mostly male at the time, truly care or just like to stir pots. Seton, not Seaton please.

While I am fairly sure that much was not shared with CO's , I also am aware that much of the confusion came from few taking note of the quiet insurance companies altering their fine print. At one time the coverage was there, but over time many insurance companies modified much of their coverages, adding fine print that made minor changes that were not obvious to many, especially if faith had been put in them from prior history. Carelessness in not paying attention still is not a good image, but I would suggest that was what it was. Now, when it was discovered, we still need to wonder why the insurance companies were allowed to continue this, and if they insisted, we did not find other protections. MOre than enough blame to go around, but my personal experience with the insurance industry is NOT postive in regard to their constantly finding ways to not pay, or to decrease the liability and then force someone to court, which many cannot afford> Again, Just my observations.

Go for it. There is much to be said for reviewing stuff from decades back for use today, keeping safety and YP issues in mind of course. But many of the activities are not unsafe if done with skill and care and of course real supervision. Much of the time the youth take to it with vigor. .

Blame it on the lawyers. CYA runs rampant nowadays, especially with BSA. But it really does intrude on us all far too often. Our HOA is suffering from the lack of personal responsibility being a consideration in law suits. A Child is injured playing on site and it is the fault of the HOA, even though a number of us saw her get knocked down on the grass by her large puppy. And falling off of something not men=ant to be a seat is simply the way things happen with kids playing. Similarly, elderly being a bit unstable with age and mobility is a common issue, but if a fall occurs it is the fault of the HOA, even if the person has shown a tendency toward balance issues. I have those issues, and I keep a hiking pole for balance should I need it, and I am cognicent that surfaces are not always perfect and that I need to pay attention to steps and such. What can we say. It is always the fault of something or someone other than ourselves.