skeptic

This seems to me to reflect the misdirection of intent. IF the ORDER is an honor group dedicated to service, and once focused on enhancing the outdoor programs within the units and Councils, becoming Vigil or even Brotherhood should be secondary to simply following the spirit of the ORDER. Similar to putting becoming Eagle as the primary reason to be a Scout. Just the old curmudgeon's personal point of view.

But didn't the lawsuit raid the OA endowment? What is to stop that from happening still?

Maybe the answer is to make it significant again and not just a notch on the belt for someone. When it was an Honor Camping Society that encouraged camping on the unit and council levels, and had real standards to be elected, including limits, and councils did not sell off camps to survive, it was viable. Now it is pretty much a memory for we old people and that notch I noted. No, that would make some people unhappy to have real entry standards. An Honor Scoity for Scouts and Scouters should actually present an aura of honor one might think. A few still do, but it is no longer a mystery or has it any real reason to exist. Just an observation.

I was not aware of the Adult adjustment, though totally agree. Years ago I had one of our parents and really involved parents turned down by our lodge for nomination due to his not having ever done a long term. Now this is a man that had done every available training of the time, as he could fit it in. And he had been on a dozen or more weekend backpacks, some up to four nights, and he had done what was then called Trail Boss training with the FS. But, he had tow younger daughters and a wife, and his annual longer term vacation was for family. Thus he did not go to summer camps. When his son was elected, was when we also nominated him as an adult. Fortunately he rethought his emotional response when turned down, and he did not drop out. He finally managed to work out a week at summer camp, but that was three years later. It was, from my perspective, ignorant and short sighted. He had more nights than a number of adults that did get accepted due to summer camps, plus he also was an accomplished welder and building skilled person willing to share his skills. The worst part of that was when I suggested to the Scout Exec that he might wave the summer camp requirement of the time, he refused. Later I went to Jambo and spoke to a couple of OA big shots, and they told me in no uncertain terms that my perspective was nonsense and they would never even consider that. Oh well; he is long in the background, the son is in his thirties and married, and OA is a mess.

How is this really different than the James E. West program? It is much like the concept that at one time was discouraged of local lodges issuing new patches regularly as "trade bait", especially just prior to Jamboree and OA National events. In our almost extinct Lodge, we had a period with so many patches that nobody had a clue, other than it was another variation for some obscure reason.

You likely do not want to have some responses of we old people that were elected long ago. It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit, and ceremonies were done with youth reading from a piece of paper and often with little or no obvious prep. Today, since I am still the on paper SM, though not active directly, I get the notices which I forward to my younger adults. I have counseled them with "my opinion" that if they choose to be in the election then they also have to commit to the Ordeal and at least some initial participation. Otherwise, I will not approve their being elected. The SM still has veto power, and I choose to use it in this. Our local lodge now is challenged to even find a place to do stuff, as they sold all our camps. The SE told me they do a good job helping around the office; hmmmmm.

In regard to the Youth, my only counsel is to keep them in focus and do not let adult things interfere. Every unit is different and has myriad issues and personalities. None of us can "fix" things all the time. IF the adult leadership is an issue, and you cannot work within it to the benefit of the youth, then perhaps that decision to find another option for yourself is viable. As often noted; all units would be great if we could keep the adults in the background. Scouting is still one of the most shining options for the malaise of America, or the U.S. We do what we can and pray a lot.

fliver to cambodia Am sure that some on here may have read this, or at least know about it, but I found this AI generated description that seems interesting. Wonder what others may think about the idea of this being put into afilm or video. A " Flivver to Cambodia: Two Boy Scouts Across Asia " is a travel memoir by French adventurer and Boy Scout Guy de Larigaudie. The book chronicles the journey of Larigaudie and his companion, Roger Drapier, as they became the first people to drive from Paris to Saigon in a motor vehicle. They used a second-hand Ford Model T (commonly nicknamed a "flivver") to complete the trek between 1937 and 1938. Key Details of the Journey: The Vehicle: A 19-horsepower Ford Model T. The Route: Spanned approximately 30,000 kilometers across Europe, the Middle East, India, and Southeast Asia. Legacy: The book remains a celebrated classic in scouting literature, particularly in France, for its themes of adventure and friendship.

Yep.

That would make far too much sense.

If the young person is challenged, perhaps seriously, in the "very competitieve school", then perhaps the Scouting is a release, and he or she finds it of lesser import. Age may be a factor eventually if the Scouting interest or involvement is consistent. I have had a couple of long term, but stalled in rank youths that suddenly somewhere past sixteen or seventeen light a fire under themselves for Scouting rank. Sadly, some waited too long, at least in ur unit where they still had to do the work. Every young person sometimes loses focus, or is too focused on other goals. We also do not know often what other pressures or home and school issues may "really" be in play. If they take the "Spirit" forward in their lives, the work is done.

So many things get in the way of real continuity. For our unit, early on it was job issues with the chosen individual suddenly being moved and a fortunate replacement stepping up. That resulted is a few decades of solid leadership, but in reality it was up t half a dozen doing the lifting with one at the paper apex. He and his number one ASM received the first two SB awards in our council in the 30's. Sam the SM noted then that they were in reality co-SM's. WWII brought strong step ups to help, and then Sam" son came back and stepped in for a long period. He was forced out due to adults feeling his approach was too outdated. Lots of turmoil and loss of focus, and it almost killed the unit. Finally a steady hand stepped in to level the waves. I was put in the spot against my preference at the time due to personal issues and my job, yet somehow am still there, but now a paper figurehead with others working to keep us afloat. I was forced out due to a stroke and another major issue, and our unit family discovered that issue of poor planning. We now struggle for outdoor options, but we have a few dedicated adults to hold us afloat, though none are outdoor people in the sense of consistent hiking and camping, which had been our focus for most of our history. The history, over a century is a factor though. So we struggle on and I encourage them from the pedestal they put me on and try to find some younger outdoor types, hopefully maybe even past alumni. We also struggle with the Methodist challenge since the lawsuit. Going into year 104 and hopefully can cement the history in place and use it to draw some new true outdoor Scouting adults. Should add that service has Always been a factor for our units, and that is part of its success. Also, still fewer than a hundred Eagles, so we cannot be accused of that often difficult focus.

Probably polishing my "annoyed stone" a bit, but the fact he did not make Eagle is secondary. Did he enjoy his time, and did he learn to live the Spirit?

And those are the opportunities lost, in my view. Reach out to local outdoor sources that may appreciate the option on occasion, and do not make it too expensive, but also not a loss leader, so to speak. That might include schools, church groups, local colleges that might do classes there, sporting goods stores with outdoor programs, especially if a climbing facility is there. But also maybe even council insider use for family options. Always seems to be excuses, but little done. Our camp was front and center for fire camp more than once, but it might have also been coused for training, including he scouts in summer and such. Never even suggested, or if it was, never got beyond a mention in a meeting few were allowed to attend. One of the biggest barriers that still seems to survive is "can't". As my grandfather often told me, "Can't" never could do anything".

Is the board really trying, or is it just for show? I have become very jaded about how boards operate based on stories I see, and local experience. They seem to not make the issue public until it is too late to do much, and often many are completely caught off guard.