BigDave

I have read it and taken some time to digest it and there is so precious little that I like about it. I thought the old one could use some work and was unwieldy if you had a large ceremony, but I don't like the new one at all. There's symbolism that's wrong and confusing. There's continuity problems. I'm just really not impressed with it. If your fire, which was large enough to be seen from a different mountain, goes out in an ice storm, your problem is a lack of kindling? (I think I know why your fire went out.) And you're going to burn your bow and thus give up your ability to hunt for food? And Uncas was out warning his fellow Delawares about an impending invasion - so what was he doing in enemy territory anyway? ("With friends and allies far behind him, only enemies could be ahead.") I realize that their territory wasn't necessarily contiguous, but it seems like if you're trying to visit your allies and there are only enemies ahead, there's a problem with your process.

"Anyway, I'm still trying to understand the reaction in which someone decides to leave scouting, not because their CO has lost its ability to discriminate, but because OTHERS have gained the freedom to choose NOT to discriminate. I just don't get it. Why does one person NOT want another to have the same freedom that THEY have?" It isn't as simple as that. Troops don't exist in isolation. Removing the ban means the possibility of gay leaders at summer camp, district events, OA events, etc. If a parent doesn't want their precious darling camping out in the woods with a gay leader, you can't tell them that they won't have one when they take wilderness survival merit badge at summer camp.

Something that hasn't been mentioned here is that there is a difference between a parent wanting to attend because they have a genuine concern about the conduct of the ceremony / religious implications of it / their son's health / etc. vs a parent wanting to attend because they regard it as just somewhere they would normally attend analogous to graduation, courts of honor, etc. I would venture to say in 99.9% of cases, the situation is the latter. Any legitimate concern about the ceremony should be raised in advance of the event, not by simply showing up the night of the Ordeal ceremony. In the only cases I have encountered of a non-member parent coming to a ceremony, it was not because they had any questions at all, but rather because they received bad advice from a Scoutmaster or other leader and were told "you should try to be there early so you can see Johnny's ceremony".

I should clarify that I don't particularly care one way or another whether photography is permitted at the ceremony - I merely want our lodge to be in compliance with the policy. Prior to the advent of digital cameras, we used to ban photography other than our own historian committee, but nobody particularly cared because very few people were interested in burning $20 in film+development at an Ordeal anyway. About six years or so ago, we looked for a basis for that "policy" and couldn't find one, so we wrote it off as one of the "made up rules" and quit enforcing it. We have, since the time I asked the question, published the below text: Page 21 of Chapter 3 of the 2007 printing of the Guide to Inductions says, "Unlike the other OA ceremonies, photos and video may be taken at call-out ceremonies". We are not aware of any direct statement of policy on cameras at ceremonies (only this indirect statement, regarding photos at call-outs) and so we have adopted the following guidelines: * Recognizing that the Order of the Arrow safeguards its ceremonies, neither video of ceremonies, nor still pictures that clearly display any symbol or symbolic act should be posted publicly. * The Order of the Arrow is NOT a secret society. Any request from a parent to see photos or video from a ceremony should be accommodated. * Under no circumstances should any camera with a flash or which makes noise be utilized. Flash photography is inherently disruptive to the ceremonialists, the candidates, and the other spectators and will not be tolerated. Please set your camera to not use the flash and turn off its sound PRIOR TO THE START OF THE FIRST CEREMONY. If you are uncertain whether your camera makes noise, take a test shot beforehand. If you do not know how to turn off the flash, ask for help or do not use your camera. If you cannot comply with this policy, you will be asked to leave. * Photographs of ceremonies are generally taken by the ceremonial, website, historian, and Drumbeat committees and posted in the photos section of this website or on the lodge's facebook page. * Because of the distraction that can be caused by excessive numbers of cameras, it is asked that individuals use reasonable discretion with cameras.

Seminoles? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Chief_Osceola_on_Renegade_FSU.jpg/450px-Chief_Osceola_on_Renegade_FSU.jpg(This message has been edited by BigDave)

"In units, the selection ratio is 1 adult authorized for selection for every 50 registered youth." Is that a (relatively) new rule? I thought it was one adult period, provided that the election yielded at least one youth elected.

The Guide to inductions says on page 20, when discussing the call-out ceremony, "Unlike the other OA ceremonies, photos and video may be taken at call-out ceremonies". My question is this - where is the rule against photos and video in ceremonies actually stated? The context of this statement seems a rather round about way of establishing a policy.