sherminator505

"The right to free association is now considered un-American? Wow. I didn't get the memo." Wow! I guess this is the part where I should say something like "I'm surprised you need a memo to tell you that!" But I'm not surprised, as you appear to be using a broken moral compass. You know, the kind that always seems to be pointed squarely at you.

YES!!! This is great! Too bad I have to wait until 12/15/10 to get one, though...

I would write the requirement as follows: "Teach another Scout a Scout skill. Describe the method you used to teach the skill and tell how you know that the skill was learned."

"Lots of homosexuals claim to be straight in public, Sherm." And yet, strangely some of us seem to me more concerned with homosexuals who are up front about their orientation. Why? Is it because they dare exercise their First Amendment rights and make some of us feel all oogy?

I find it interesting that the BSA makes it much easier to segregate than to include.

"1) Almost all of the perpetrators have been homosexual. Very few (none of da public cases) were in heterosexual relationships of any kind. Folks lobbying for a position will argue that they were ephebophile homosexuals or pedophile homosexuals which is "different." " No, Beavah. You are wrong. In my hometown, we had a Scouter who abused Scouts. He did not profess to be a homosexual, in fact he held himself out to be heterosexual and as "normal" as anyone. In the end, several boys came forward, the disgraced Scouter committed suicide upon learning that the authorities were on their way, and not long after that G2SS came out. Abusers will not come out and tell you they are gay. They will do anything they can not to draw attention to themselves at all. Unless you have some statistics to back up your arguments, Beavah, please do yourself a favor and stick to things that are factual. Thanks.

shrubber writes: "I don't think you fully understand what civil rights are. Marriage is not a 'civil right' " Marriage is a civil contract that carries with it rights, responsibilities, privileges, and tax implications. Further, an entire body of law has developed around what happens when a marriage begins and when it ends. Married people have standing and rights with regard to visitation rights at the hospital and end-of-life decisions. If this does not amount to a civil right, then what exactly is it? Frankly, shrubber, I question your understanding of the matter. It is either deliberately selective or woefully incomplete.

"My guess - 8 years from now, some of you will still be advocating...because the BSA won't change." You may be right about the 8 years, Brent. But the BSA will eventually change, because the present policy is un-American and nigh indefensible. The only question in my mind is whether the BSA will change on its own or if they will be forced to do so by some judge. I'd really hate to see the latter.

I would only expect to see the Green/Tan trained strip on the Boy Scout Leader uniform in conjunction with the green numerals and shoulder loops. I still need to get used to those...

I'm thinking "no" on this one. For me, a "Boy Scout activity" implies that the Boy Scout troop is initiating the activity, or at the very least is planning to participate in a significant way. As an aside, I wonder why a troop would take such a casual attitude about this, as it is an excellent opportunity to pull new Scouts into their troop.

If BSA v. Dale were reversed, I feel that it would free up the BSA's leadership to redirect its resources from stuff like this and... oh, I don't know... concentrate on things like program and training support?!

"To be fair, our SM gave the boys EDGE instruction at the last meeting, and I think they are no worse for the wear." If Kudu's not howling about this yet, I'll start. WHAT ON EARTH is the SM doing in front of the boys during the meeting in the first place?!

Perhaps this thread belongs in I/P. It is certainly beginning to take on that I/P feel...

"I'd like to know what she intends to do with those boy scouts..." Merlyn, I think she wants to lead them. That seems clear from the context of the story (to most of us, anyway). Still, I agree with the consensus on this thread. It's the CO's right and its responsibility to pick and choose the Scouters for its unit.

Love2Camp78, Welcome to the campfire! There are some details that are missing here. Was this an interim appointment? If so, then what clemlaw says makes some sense. I was actually involved in one of these arrangements, and they are seldom permanent. I am also curious as to what happened next. Did they ask you to serve on as assistants or as committee members? Was there any indication that the IH and/or COR wanted to put "their guy" in? If they want you to continue with the troop in another capacity, then your training money really wasn't wasted. At any rate, if you could fill in the details then we would be in a better position to help.

Deathbed Eagle? That's the first time I've ever heard that term. I had my EBOR the night before I moved into my dorm room at college. I guess that itching sensation was the embalming fluid that they started to pump in... Eagle Scout is an individual goal. It shouldn't be used as a measure of success or failure of a troop, and if it is, then the troop really needs to re-examine its priorities.

I guess the shrinking uniform problem is more widespread than I thought...

Gern writes: "I think that for scouting to be exciting for 11-17 year olds, it needs to become distinct programs. One program cannot satisfy the needs of that broad age spread of boys. The program, as published and taught in training is to program for the middle school boys. If you want to keep older ones engaged, you need an alternate, homespun program for them." Through the years, the BSA has attempted to fill this niche through several programs, including: * Sea Scouts * Rover Scouts * Senior Scouts * Air Scouts * Explorer Scouts * Exploring * Career Awareness Exploring * Leadership Corps * Varsity Scouts * Varsity Patrols * Venture Patrols * Venturing Perhaps this would be a good spin-off thread (or perhaps a continuation of this one)... Why haven't the BSA's older boy programs met with greater success?

"I think it's VERY illegitimate for a sport or activity to claim kids must be there 100% of the time, or have mandatory attendance. This is just a bad way to run a program. The worst offenders are the people running kids sports, who stroke their egos by trying to get a winning record as a coach. Kind of as proof of one's manhood. Kids should be free to go, or not go, as they choose. " I don't necessarily agree with this. With band, or sports, or Scouting, or anything else, comes a certain level of commitment. While the demands in terms of time and attendance may vary with the activity, the commitment in terms of the expectations to meet those demands varies with the participant. What we should be teaching, I think, is the notion that commitments are important, and that they should be honored fully and not in half-measure. If that means that an activity must be dropped to honor other commitments, then so be it.

BrentAllen writes: "Kudu, Would it make you happy if WB correctly attributed the "game with a purpose" quote to Green Bar Bill instead of B-P? Are your shorts really in that much of a knot?" Brent, this reads like an I/P post! If this is really a question for you, then I suggest that you re-read Kudu's posts in this and other threads and you will have your answer. BadenP writes: "Moosetracker While you may have a point there are a lot of very good boy scout troops out there that do not follow the current BSA troop guidelines in their programs. Kudu and Stosh at least try to stick to the original program set up by the founder, which in all honesty has really gotten watered down over time with the emphasis on management skills vs. scouting skills. Kudu is also correct, IMO, that Bill Hillcourt did an awful lot in saving the rapidly shrinking and poorly thought out boy scout program of the 1970's by rewriting it and bringing it back to the "basics". I would much rather see scouting done Kudu's way then for example the way the LDS church has twisted the program to fit the religious needs of their faith and other faiths who have done the same thing. The boy scout program was never meant to be used as an indoctrination or propaganda tool for any religion. As Kudu, Beavah, and others here have pointed out time and time again the current BSA training set up for Boy Scout Leaders does not do an adequate job in preparing them to lead a troop and while management is a part of the process, having enough training to master the essential scoutcraft skills is and should be the priority. The format and content of current National training is just the opposite of that goal. The result is undertrained SM's and ASM's and dull programs that are losing more boys every year. National has to take a serious look at the current boy scout program and re-evaluate its effectiveness before it is too late." You pretty much nailed it, although I disagree with the premise that the 1970's experiment ever fully ended.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

Wow. Here I see some activity in I/P, only to find someone pounding the earth, and then I realized that there was once a dead horse there. Who else is in the mood for chocolate cream pie?

Kudu, I wouldn't compare you to Merlyn. Ed maybe... (This message has been edited by sherminator505)

"Change just for the sake of change can many times have disasterous results, as we saw with scouting in the 70's." Correction - are seeing. The official story is that the "Improved Scouting Program" was a short-lived program experiment. In truth it has been, and continues to be, a slow-motion train wreck. Keep in mind that it took 17 years to go back to the pre-1972 advancement requirements, and even longer to erase the changes made to Wood Badge at about the same time. The problem with the latter is that when they got around to changing Wood Badge, they replaced it with something even less satisfying. Sometimes Kudu's acidity gets to me, but I get where he's coming from. The point of Scouting has traditionally been to take boys out of civilization and have them learn citizenship and values away from the distractions of modern society. This was the formula up until 1972, when the program was "improved" and "modernized" to make it more "relevant." Feh!(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

"I think that brings up something interesting. There is BSA clip art available from an official source, Troop Program Resources (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Clipart.pdf). The first page, at the bottom, it does say "No additional licenses or permissions are required for uses that fall within the scope and within accepted BSA editorial and content standards." " This illustrates how a selective quotation can lead to gross misinterpretation. The whole paragraph reads as follows: "The following images and indicia are the exclusive property of the Boy Scouts of America and are protected by the copyright laws of the United States 17 U.S.C. et. seq. The indicia and images are licensed for BSA communications and educational purposes only. This limited license is intended for, and restricted to only, BSA local councils, national and regional BSA offices and personnel, and chartered organizations of the BSA. No additional licenses or permissions are required for uses that fall within the scope and within accepted BSA editorial and content standards. Resale of the images and indicia, in whole or in part, in any form is strictly prohibited." If one reads the whole paragraph, it should be clear that the license described is extended to Scouting entities for Scouting purposes. As the website we're talking about here is not a Scouting entity as described in this paragraph, then this paragraph could not be construed as an acceptable license to use that image on that particular website. It is entirely possible that the people who run this website have received permission from the BSA to use that image, but I have no way of knowing that. Now if that permission has not been granted, then I think it is an awfully un-Scoutlike thing to do...(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

Kudu, you beat me to it! In the 1947 Handbook, a section is devoted to each of the tools. For example, "Setting Out with the Troop" involves the steps involved in starting a new Troop. OGE writes: "...the key issue I beleive is having staff that could provide the three disparate programs of training. I think thats why we ended up with what we have, staffing issues" There are two remedies I can think of right away. The first is pooling of resources amongst councils. This is already done in my area in regard to Commissioners' College, and it has proven to be workable. The second is actually developing a corps of trainers with the required expertise. This goes beyond simply putting on Trainers Development Conferences or Trainer's EDGE courses. It involves recognizing trainers as having a distinct job in the district/council as Trainers. Recognitions or Key-type awards for trainers might also be helpful. Apparently National is studying this, but they have announced nothing concrete at this point.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)